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16th Turkish General Election, 2007 |
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Lmprs 
Arch Duke 
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: 16th Turkish General Election, 2007Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 09:59 |
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Five years ago, all social-democrats were cursing at the constitution of 1982 and accusing military junta of corrupting Ataturk's legacy. Now, they have the chance to repair the damage, but they refuse to participate in anything and prefer to call AKP government traitors etc. as usual. These events show that there is no real diversity among Kemalists as they are all militarists. CHP is not a political party, it's the most unhealthy organ of the Turkish state.
AKP, on the other hand, seems to be liberal and pro-EU, but until they remove the infamous 301. entry of the penal code and erase 'Religion' part in ID carts, I'll not believe that they genuinely intend to break the status quo. If they do not have any religious political agenda as they claim, they can do these things. No stupid excuses, no nothing... But what do they do instead? They spread nationalistic propaganda through media by attacking DTP. |
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Beylerbeyi
Chieftain 
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Cuba Online Status: Offline Posts: 1355 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 11:03 |
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Actually, I am really happy that I am a Turk.
The Turkish state treats me like trash even now, when my ID says that I am a muslim (even though I am not) from Istanbul. Next time the police rudely stops me on the street and asks for my ID (it is quite common in Istanbul nowadays thanks to the new fascist law by AKP and the ex-president Sezer), I would not like to have an ID which says my family originates from Tunceli or that my surname ends with -yan.
CHP is not social-democrat.
The current Republican-AKP struggle in Turkey is a struggle of one wing of the bourgeoisie with another wing of the same class. Republicans (including the military) are the old Istanbul bourgeoisie and AKP is the new Anatolian bourgoisie.
Both are bourgeois and both are pro-US.
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 11:23 |
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Ataturk's motto had nothing to do with happiness. It was a part of assimilation policy.
CHP is not social-democrat itself, but there are social-democrats among the ranks of CHP. |
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 12:40 |
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If you was to listen solely to one side regarding Gulen, you'd either hate his guts or think he's the greatest man alive...
The reality is more down the middle, the guy has roots in the Turk-Islam ideal, there is no denying his religous nature however, his movement was tolerated and even supported by some segments of the Turkish state because they also worked for and promote Turks and build ties with other Turkic communities.
There are aspects which can be seriously criticised and others which can be congratulated. One thing is sure, these guys work very hard, if only other groups and organisations could work as hard it could do alot to benefit Turkey.
A balance needs to be met between secularism and more religous minded movements, could Turkey be one of the first states to reach such a settlement? one which satisfies the religous, secularists and all inbetween, a real role model in the muslim world, that would be a real achievement.
Edited by Bulldog - 06-Sep-2007 at 16:34 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 14:20 |
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Surely it would be a monumental moment Bulldog. I know of fundamentalists that have reformed themselves into bright and scientific minds by giving up closemindedness (is that one word or two?). Afterwards they have learned and taught much. Is Gulen one of those types? He has promoted much to Islam. Has his checkered history been overcome by a new and improved self-awareness without hidden objectives? There is a big doubt in my mind. Maybe by taking the good, questioning his past is pleasing to eye but eventually we will judge him on his actions. Yet silly little things like this next blog keep popping up. Granted it's a blog and I don't know the reliability of it. His organization is too clandistine to trust in my book.
Maybe it's just Russian politics or simply sneaky methods from Gulen's operation.
Russia Takes Over Fethullah Gulen School For Ties To Islamist Sect Mainstream Turkish daily Milliyet reported that the administration of Fethullah Gulens Turkish school in St.Petersburg is taken over by Russian autholine with [For more on Fethullah Gulen please see "The Upcoming Elections in Turkey (2): The AKP's Political Power Base")rities due to suspicions that this and other Gulen schools in the country were tied to the Nur (Light) Islamist sect of which Fethullah Gulen is the leader. An investigation committee found that the schools curriculum was not in
Source: Milliyet, Turkey, August 22, 2007http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/2608.htm
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
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Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 20:58 |
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Are you joking? Turkey is not secular enough. Not even near. |
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Mortaza
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
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Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 02:54 |
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Seko, cant you accuse Fetullah with a proof?
Newpapers and exiling him at a coup is not realy good proofs.
Hey I suspect, You are a fundementalist muslim. You should prove me you are not.( I think this is your way. First accuse than let him proof his innocence)
do you have a court decision?
Anyway, You are saying that AKP as against our type(fasist kemalist) of secular turkey.
I hope you are right. AKP is against it.(Just another good reason to vote for her)
Why do you think, I should realy care for it? It is limiting my rights. My family suffered because of this fasist kemalist state.
So I am totally against it.
Your kemalist country is suppressing my family and you are waiting for our support for this state?
I think, not taking weapon is enough for us.
I do not care, If greek, france or turkish army suppress me. why do you think I should? Infact I hate it when Turkish army do it.
I am not against secularism but I am against to our type of secularism. It is funny, wife of our pm should evade from army because She use headscarf.
It is your ideology not mine. You can protect it.Just dont wait it from me.
I am ready to protect Turkey but not fasist kemalist part.
Ataturk's motto had nothing to do with happiness. It was a part of assimilation policy.
Excatly. That is why army defined her enemies with this word. Be Turk or you are our enemy.
CHP is not social-democrat itself, but there are social-democrats among the ranks of CHP.
So AKP, So DTP.
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 07:48 |
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Mortaza I do't have the foggiest idea about you or your family's disgruntled experiences with the State. I do appreciate your honesty and will take your word on it for the sake of trusting you. I also agreed with you that previous political parties (Kemalist as you called them) have been corrupt. Back in the 1970's in a closed economical system there was alot of turmoil. Universities were often the front lines of political clashes. Shootings and public bombings were a regular occurence in the streets before the military coupe in the 80's. Given that history and the eventual corruptions in the 1990's under the Ciller and Yilamz admistrations, the whole state has been responsible for the current lack of support. That does not keep me from being very leery of the current party in power, AKP. You may want to avoid it's shortcomings as you please. The old parties are no more. The party under the microscope is the AKP as it should be. If you want, share with us the new rights you and those your family has gained so I can better appreciate where you are coming from. On the other hand don't feel too bothered when I critisize AKP's faults.
Edited by Seko - 07-Sep-2007 at 07:52 |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 08:15 |
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Mortaza I do't have the foggiest idea about you or your family's disgruntled experiences with the State.
Not state but univercities. I just banned education of three girls.
The party under the microscope is the AKP as it should be. If you want, share with us the new rights you and those your family has gained so I can better appreciate where you are coming from. On the other hand don't feel too bothered when I critisize AKP's faults.
why not. I am working at a state job as audit. All of older workers use alchol. Reason is not because everyone use alchol in Turkey but because They did not get even one persone who use alchol...
I do not consume alchol. So without AKP, I will not enter this job because I do not use alchol.(By the way, to enter this job, You should firstly do enough at KPSS but later some people choose you.)
Now, It is a little changed. A lot of my friend use alchol but some of them dont use too.(Better than older situation?)
So at least, I met less discrimination at state now..
there are some mild improvement about headscarf problems too.. Yes, It is not enough . Infact much less than enough. But lets not forget army of Fasist Kemalist Turkey.(It is funny same army call more than 50% of Turkish people as enemy.)
Even wife of pm suffer because of headscarf problem. So Gul or Erdogan is like me..
On the other hand don't feel too bothered when I critisize AKP's faults.
Hmm. we are at a forum. (After all what is the aim of forum? to not share ideas?) Just show me one problem AKP(or my words) created for you. On the other hand dont feel to bothered when I critisize your critisizes.
 I am not even talking about improvement at democracy, economy, healty system or other things. You are living in USA, You are not suffering from this problems. So You are too ready to sacrify this improvements because of your ideology.
But well, People in Turkey are not so ready for this. That is why AKP got 47%.
By the way, when you are calling people I choose as islamofasist, I will become a little irritated. If My irritation irritate you, I am sorry.
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 12:21 |
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First of all thanks for sharing your difficult experiences. Helps me put things into perspective. Granted some of the experiences you mention also have an opposing issue. I did not know that the consumption of alcohol was a prerequisite to attain or keep your job as a state auditor. There is also counter discrimination in the country since AKP's dominance. New prayer breaks are heavily encouraged (read between the lines, discriminatory) at government offices as well. Here's an interesting situation too. AKP InteriorMinister Osman Gneşe was at 5 star hotel in Trugut Reis near Bodrum, a touristic town, and was served risotto as a guest of the Mugla governor. The foreign dish was made with dabbles of white wine as per chef's custom. Complaining about having been served unknowingly this food with alcohol in it he got the waiter fired. As if that was not severe enough he also got the Muğla Valisi (governor) dismissed from his position. Simple mistake or abuse of power? Risotto, şef garson Yanarı da işinden etti
Islamofascist is a hard term given to those with fascist pretensions under the guise of Islam. Harun Yahya is a fitting example. Whether you like him or not is your choice. Yet his history is full of mischief. http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7001/0/
We could go tit for tat all day long. This will not change a thing in your or my mind. That being the case I call a truce and let this discussion conclude knowing that we have our differences. Edited by Seko - 07-Sep-2007 at 12:25 |
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DayI
Sultan 
Joined: 30-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2408 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 17:33 |
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mirtaza, let everything aside of accusation about fetullah gulen. A question for you and i want a clever answer of you, do you believe that people work for fetullah gulen do this out their free will? I am a first eye witness of how "these" people work, just wanted to know your opinion bout him. |
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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg"> |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 19:53 |
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I'm as against "extreme secularism" as against "extreme theocracy".
Turkey has "Diyanet", a branch of the governmet, infact its one of the most powerfull departments.
Why do you feel Turkey is not "secular enough", what benefits would being "more secular" bring, what would be the purpose of it?
Oh the, "if your not with me your a fascist" argument...
Fascist is just a word without a meaning these days, it makes somebody feel superior in contrast to their opposition in their fanatical support of a particular party or ideology. It makes them feel better to feel that those against them are "fascists" while they are noble role models of the universe
Fasist Kemalists...Muslim fanatical fascists...Leftist fascists...Liberal-fascists... wow, who isn't fascist
A major problem is that some of you guys lack the capacity to try and understand each other, instead there is this mentallity that "I'm right, everyone else is not only wrong but also a fascist".
Edited by Bulldog - 09-Sep-2007 at 19:55 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 02:59 |
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mirtaza, let everything aside of accusation about fetullah gulen. A question for you and i want a clever answer of you, do you believe that people work for fetullah gulen do this out their free will?
Dayı, Some do it money, some do it because they believe him.
Of course, I am talking about students. After finishing univercity, people help his cause valunterily. (how can you force an adult?)
I went FEM and I went their homes too. Noone forced me to enter their way.(They offered twice but noone forced.)
Of course, we can talk about a social pressure but this is not something unresistable. You can just go out from cemaat. Noone can stop you.
I did not know that the consumption of alcohol was a prerequisite to attain or keep your job as a state auditor.
I did not know too. Infact, I am sure not all of state firms are like mine but still becoming a religious man is bad at past too.(It is interesting that It is not important If you are religious or not, Your family should not be religious too.)
There is also counter discrimination in the country since AKP's dominance.
Somehow, but AKP is better than others.. Half of new workers still use alchols. (If you ask me, even this 50% is more than ratio between alchol users and not.)
Also lets not forget, In reality AKP have no power at state. She is using older ANAP and MHP burokrats..
AKP need 20 year to have his own high burokrats..
Harun Yahya is a fitting example. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
I see him as a clown and I am sure, AKP leadership does not care him much too.
We could go tit for tat all day long. This will not change a thing in your or my mind. That being the case I call a truce and let this discussion conclude knowing that we have our differences.
Okey thanks for discussion.:) |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 03:10 |
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A major problem is that some of you guys lack the capacity to try and understand each other, instead there is this mentallity that "I'm right, everyone else is not only wrong but also a fascist".
No. I do not care If I am right or not. I may become wrong my religion my ideas all of them can wrong.
But I want to live acording to my beliefs..
I do not care what is kemalist ideas but I object If they interfere my life style.
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 07:41 |
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Hey, I am sometimes fond of Gulen and the hard work they do. But as with most clandestine movements there is an element of secrecy which can breed mistrust and suspicion. There are sections of this movement which prey on the vulnerable.
Also once your in your in, its tough to try and get out. They do alot of good work and give a good name to Turks in countries they operate however, like other types of these movements there are corrupt people within them aswell. We saw what other religous movement groups did to vulnerable peoples money in Europe for example. Edited by Bulldog - 10-Sep-2007 at 07:45 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 10:17 |
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What the f**k is that?
Exactly. But why did you bring this up? It serves my argument. Turkey is not secular enough.
Well, secularism is a must for a modern, democratic society. I don't want to discuss it further with you though. |
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 18:14 |
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No, Mr. Bulldog. Believe it or not, it's just that: There are many fascists in this world. |
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