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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AmericasWheel
    Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:55
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by elenos

[QUOTE=edgewaters] What I'm interested in, in the context of this thread, is the wheel in the Americas.
Elenos, your a classic.  If you can say that after three days,  you haven't been paying attention.


You could explain what you mean, without any personal attack of course, and I will  accept what  have to say. By the way have you read of what I have said and if so what is your opinion on the subject. What I have been talking about is perhaps there are other unknown alternatives to the wheel? Three days? well that is what discussion on a forum is all about, having opinions and being able to clearly state them!


Edited by elenos - 25-Jul-2007 at 07:00
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 07:15
Originally posted by elenos

What I have been talking about is perhaps there are other unknown alternatives to the wheel?


There's nothing unknown about alternatives to the wheel for moving heavy objects. We understand all the principles and methods well enough. Scaffolding, ramps, rope and frame, levers, sleds, water transport, and rollers. Some archaeologist re-enacts the methods for television audiences every week, and of course, with or without the wheel, some of those methods are still crucial. The Egyptians certainly had the wheel but it was of limited use in building the pyramids.

So, the question isn't really how did they move heavy things around - it's did they have the wheel, because the wheel is about more than just moving heavy things around. It has so many other uses.

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 07:50
I accept that, thankyou for your explanation, if somebody had said the same thing before we wouldn't be having this discussion now! However, as I keep on pointing out, I look for real alternatives. That's the way  I am and will remain so, sorry about that. So far as we know America didn't have the wheel. Perhaps you suspect as I do that too much information has been lost by neglect and by rampant looting. Good thinking!

Many scholars ride their own hobby horse despite whatever change takes place in the evidence. Tell them something different what they haven't read in a book and they freak out and cannot handle it. They only have one way of approaching a problem, the way they learned as a child and will spend the rest of their life trying to prove it!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 15:18

Perhaps, but the problem with the Americas is not much the lack of knowledge but the large number of idiotic fantasies that cover the reality. The list is endless: "the white rulers of Tiahuanaco", "the astronauts landing in Nasca", "The black phylosophers teaching the Olmecs", "The Lamanites of the Mormons", "The fountain of youth", "The cities of the Caesars", "The chupacabras"..... name it.

Every single idiot in this world has a theory about the Americas :)

However, if one wants to get a good idea of what really happened there are good books on history, arts and engineering of ancient americas. It is amazing what they tell us and it is a lot better than fantasies, because it is real.

Pinguin

 

 

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 18:34
I hope I'm not pulling a Von Daniken by suggesting that there may have been more wheels than just the toys.

I don't think its really that incredible - they obviously did have the wheel and understand the principles, its just a question of how did it develop and what else might they have used it for, and why did they not use it in the ways we'd expect.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:11
I agree with you pinquin. The lost city of gold and all that. I used to believe that stuff because the libraries are full of it, but to see the place is not to believe the myths anymore! A book can make many things seem better than they are in real life and exaggerate to the point you would rather believe the book than the facts.

South America always has been "the Lost World" The most common question "what went on there so the natives, without our technology built their civilization in parallel ways to Europe?" Immediately you are hooked. Go on tell me!  I love a good mystery so tell me! And the authors of this literature tell you alright, they get crowds flocking to Town Halls where you  pay your money at the door to hear all about the revelations and the more amazing the stories the better.


Edited by elenos - 25-Jul-2007 at 20:14
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:28
Originally posted by edgewaters

I hope I'm not pulling a Von Daniken by suggesting that there may have been more wheels than just the toys.

I don't think its really that incredible - they obviously did have the wheel and understand the principles, its just a question of how did it develop and what else might they have used it for, and why did they not use it in the ways we'd expect.
 
Well, I agree with you that some cases of applications of wheel could have existed and we are not aware of. I like very much your post about the Mesoamerican pottery wheel, because that is a string to follow, very interesting indeed. In the case of the Andes and Chile, we know natives didn't use pottery wheel and still some pottery is done the traditional way without the wheel.
 
What I miss is the development of machinery!! They knew the wheel because it is obvious the knew the circles and they developed toys as well. Why nobody figure it out the toothed wheel is the big mistery, I believe.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:34
Originally posted by elenos

I agree with you pinquin. The lost city of gold and all that. I used to believe that stuff because the libraries are full of it, but to see the place is not to believe the myths anymore! A book can make many things seem better than they are in real life and exaggerate to the point you would rather believe the book than the facts.

South America always has been "the Lost World" The most common question "what went on there so the natives, without our technology built their civilization in parallel ways to Europe?" Immediately you are hooked. Go on tell me!  I love a good mystery so tell me! And the authors of this literature tell you alright, they get crowds flocking to Town Halls where you  pay your money at the door to hear all about the revelations and the more amazing the stories the better.
 
No technology? They had it, but it was different of what we would expect.
 
There is an excelent book about the topic published in the U.S., that weight a ton, and that cost me a fortune to import LOL, but that was worth it. I would recomend you to get it and probably is in a public library.  It tells a good fraction of the inventions and developments of Natives of the hemisphere. There are more that 450 fascinating entries. It is called

American Indian Contributions to the World

by Emory Dean Keoke and Kay Marie Porterfield

%5bbook%20cover%5d
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
You can see samples of the technologies in here.
 
 
Try to get a copy in your public library.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 25-Jul-2007 at 20:36
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 01:50
Sounds like a really good read, thanks piquin. 
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  Quote Yaomitl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 04:37
Originally posted by pinguin

Perhaps, but the problem with the Americas is not much the lack of knowledge but the large number of idiotic fantasies that cover the reality. The list is endless: "the white rulers of Tiahuanaco", "the astronauts landing in Nasca", "The black phylosophers teaching the Olmecs", "The Lamanites of the Mormons", "The fountain of youth", "The cities of the Caesars", "The chupacabras"..... name it.

Every single idiot in this world has a theory about the Americas :)

However, if one wants to get a good idea of what really happened there are good books on history, arts and engineering of ancient americas. It is amazing what they tell us and it is a lot better than fantasies, because it is real.

Pinguin

 

 

Yeah too right on every point there! It drives me nuts and the subtext is pretty damn offensive, it being more or less "these people were too stupid to have built these things so it must have been aliens or whitey." The human brain has had the same capacity for thought over the last few million years at least and there's no difference between the cerebral equipment of Nezahualcoyotl and Albert Einstien. Furthermore, the deeper you get into studying Nahua (amongst others no doubt) thought, the more you realise these cultures had thinkers easily equivalent to those of Rome or Greece, although they applied their reasoning to different things. Personally I suspect that the choice of how they applied their thinking was ultimately defined by culture, which was itself ultimately defined by geography. People who live on an island will come up with a better made boat than desert dwellers and so on. It's not easy to discern the specifics of how this would postpone the development (or at least widespread use) of a wheel, at least not beyond what has already been said, but I really do believe the only two explanations are either (a) stupidity or (b) environment, and there's a great wealth of evidence to rule out the first option.
Interesting looking book there by the way. I too shall keep a look out for it.
 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:51
It drives me nuts and the subtext is pretty damn offensive, it being more or less "these people were too stupid to have built these things so it must have been aliens or whitey."


Exactly what I've always thought ... whether it's diffusionists or the "ancient astronaut" crowd, they all basically want to try to deny natives credit for their achievements.

Nobody ever postulates that little green men built the Forum of Rome, I wonder why?
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 10:08
Originally posted by edgewaters

Nobody ever postulates that little green men built the Forum of Rome, I wonder why?


Because after building Stonehenge,the pyramids and sinking Atlantis they decided to go to South America rather than mess about in Europe anymore?


Edited by elenos - 26-Jul-2007 at 10:17
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by Yaomitl

[QUOTE=pinguin] ...Furthermore, the deeper you get into studying Nahua (amongst others no doubt) thought, the more you realise these cultures had thinkers easily equivalent to those of Rome or Greece, although they applied their reasoning to different things.
.... 
 
Absolutely agree!
 
People is the same. And yes, Nahua is great but my vote goes to Aymara.... a language really outstanding that is the favorite of linguistics and computer scientists.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 20:45
Originally posted by elenos

Originally posted by edgewaters

Nobody ever postulates that little green men built the Forum of Rome, I wonder why?


Because after building Stonehenge,the pyramids and sinking Atlantis they decided to go to South America rather than mess about in Europe anymore?
 
The reason is simple: RACISM.
 
Some people still believe Native Americans invented nothing. Therefore theirs achievements have to be assign to others.
 
In other words: IGNORANCE and BIGOTRY
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 22:10
Do you mean the little green men went to South America because of racism? 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 10:24
Originally posted by elenos

Do you mean the little green men went to South America because of racism? 
 
The little green men were invented as an explanation of Amerindian achievements. That's racism. John Smith, Van Danniken and Van Sertima,  are all racists because they tried to robb the Amerindian heritage from theirs legilitame owners: the Amerindians.
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 19:46
We have to admit that sensationalist  journalist writers gave the wrong impression. They give an idea of what happens when shoot from the lip historians take over, but on the good side their books did boost tourism. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 22:15
Originally posted by elenos

We have to admit that sensationalist  journalist writers gave the wrong impression. They give an idea of what happens when shoot from the lip historians take over, but on the good side their books did boost tourism. 
 
Yeap. You can see lot of Dutch going to Tiahuanaco for pictures  after visiting Van Danniken green-martian-Gods museum in Dutchland LOL, and now it is quite possible to see Black Americans embracing Olmec heads Big%20smile.
 
However, when will come the time the world recognize the merits of Native Americans themselves?
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 22:32
Originally posted by pinguin

However, when will come the time the world recognize the merits of Native Americans themselves?


Perhaps when the various Governments stabilize their economies, control the drug cartels and stop having revolutions by disarming the population?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 22:41
Originally posted by elenos

Originally posted by pinguin

However, when will come the time the world recognize the merits of Native Americans themselves?


Perhaps when the various Governments stabilize their economies, control the drug cartels and stop having revolutions by disarming the population?
 
That shows ignorance, fellow. Colombia is not an Indian country. Besides, our economies have been stabilized for more than a decade. Chile is growing 6% once again this year, for instance, and other countries of the region grow faster.
 
Well, but perhaps you gave the answer: WHEN THE GRINGO STOP APPLYING STEREOTYPES LOLLOL
 
So, it will never happen I am afraid.


Edited by pinguin - 27-Jul-2007 at 22:41
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