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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AmericasWheel
    Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 10:46
Originally posted by Yaomitl

There are early colonial accounts of Motecuhzoma's "zoo" containing "clockwork birds and animals" (mentioned in Prescott, who I think got it from Clavijero, who I think in turn got that from a conquistadore - possibly Cortes's letters to the big cheese back in Spain) although it seems probable that the claim came from a conquistadore wishing to big up the extent of their "discovery" to a boss on the other side of the ocean who was unlikely to check up on such a claim. Er... not disagreeing with you at all then, just your post reminded me of that obscure bit of trivia. As someone noted on either this forum or archaeologica, "progress" isn't always a uniform or linear process wherein all cultures develop the same innovations in the same order. People who develop trousers in the middle of a desert will probably come up with a pretty impressive trouser press before they arrive at the design for a decent boat, if you see what I mean. The lack of wheel use is still a puzzle though, despite all that's been said on the topic.
What an interesting thread this is turning out to be!
"Pressurised air toys" you say? What were they and where? I've not come across that apart from some idea of Andean hot-air balloons which (I'm no expert here mind) last I heard had been discredited.
 
Well, Moctezuma Zoo could have been made of birds that song with air pressure. Counterweights, levels and mercury can be used to produce mecanical devides that marvel people. There isn't need of gears or clockwork to create fabulous toys.
 
In the Andes the Moche culture has this whistling pots that worked by air pressure. You turn the pot and they "whistle" like a bird.
 
 
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  Quote Yaomitl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 08:32
There are early colonial accounts of Motecuhzoma's "zoo" containing "clockwork birds and animals" (mentioned in Prescott, who I think got it from Clavijero, who I think in turn got that from a conquistadore - possibly Cortes's letters to the big cheese back in Spain) although it seems probable that the claim came from a conquistadore wishing to big up the extent of their "discovery" to a boss on the other side of the ocean who was unlikely to check up on such a claim. Er... not disagreeing with you at all then, just your post reminded me of that obscure bit of trivia. As someone noted on either this forum or archaeologica, "progress" isn't always a uniform or linear process wherein all cultures develop the same innovations in the same order. People who develop trousers in the middle of a desert will probably come up with a pretty impressive trouser press before they arrive at the design for a decent boat, if you see what I mean. The lack of wheel use is still a puzzle though, despite all that's been said on the topic.
What an interesting thread this is turning out to be!
"Pressurised air toys" you say? What were they and where? I've not come across that apart from some idea of Andean hot-air balloons which (I'm no expert here mind) last I heard had been discredited.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 18:04

My main concern with the wheel is not the lack in transportation (supplied by canoe transport or lama caravans), or the application in pottery. In the last case we know Amerindians produced masterpieces of pottery, and that they even used it as a media for portraits. A noble Inca, for instance, would have a pottery of himself, like Greeks had scuptures and the people of the Renacense had paintings.

No, my main concern was the lack of development in machinery, particularly in clockworks. Clockwork, specially using the toothed wheel, was a main driven force behind the technological development of the West, the Muslim world and China.

Although in the Americas there were lots of inventions, from metalurgy to hanging bridges and paper, and from the sail to presurized air toys (like the ones of Heron of Alexandria), the Americas never had clockworks. Therefore it was behing Eurasia in mechanical engineering.
 
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  Quote Yaomitl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 07:19
Good point about the boats back there. Good point about wheelbarrows, but I guess the thing is that carrying frames already did a pretty good job (especially over long distances involving climbing) and they just weren't accustomed to thinking there might be an easier way, least of all one related to a round thing that few people knew or cared about. On the subject of "relative backwardness", I'd disagree that it applies in the case of pottery. Looking close up at the ceramics in INAH and other Mexican museums and they're often so perfect that you'd swear they'd been thrown on a potter's wheel even though obviously they haven't. I guess the lack of wheel inspired Mexican (well, not even just Mexican) ceramic workers to step up their pot game, as it were.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 16:28
Again I think we need to acknowledge that the Old World offered a range of draft animals who would make using the wheel a much more practical choice. Oxen, horses, cattle, donkeys and mules ... by contrast the closest the Americas had to offer were the bison and llama and raindeer, hardly good animals for pulling carts, chariots or carriages.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 16:04
Log rollers were indeed known in the Americas. But that's not the same as the wheel. Actually, one of the reasons of the relative backwardness of the Americans is precisely the lack of applications of the wheel to pottery and machinery, rather than just transportation. Why they didn't have the wheel but in toys?
 
Think in the steam machine invented by the Alexandrian Greeks ... as a toy. To develop the practical device took almost 2.000 years more!
 
Now, the Wheel was used by almost all the civilizations of the old world because they were in close contact, from Iberia to China. But just crossing the Sahara south you find that people there also ignored the use of the wheel.
 
Curious, indeed.
 
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Edited by pinguin - 17-Jul-2007 at 16:05
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 06:48
I still suspect they must have had some wheel based system to move giant slabs in their buildings and statues, even if it's log rollers.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 05:36
Originally posted by Paul

Originally posted by Constantine XI

The reason they did not make use of the wheel like in the Old World was they lacked any sort of draft animal in the Americas tame enough to be attached to it.
 
Trollies and wheel barrows are still a very useful tool.


That's true, but even in the Old World application of these things was limited. The wheelbarrow, to my knowledge, was not invented until the medieval period by the Chinese - its use spreading to only certain areas of the Old World continents. That makes this very basic device a pretty late arrival, not long preceding the discovery of the New World. The inhabitants of Oceania and Australia, to my knowledge, never made use of either trolleys or wheelbarrows, let alone more advanced devices like the carriage or chariot.

Looking at a civilisation like the Aztecs, their trade and agriculture could be performed via boat along the canals of Lake Texcoco, so not much need for wheeled carrying devices. The Incas likewise did much of their travelling and transportation via boat along the Pacific coast, or up and down steep mountaints - perhaps a further disincentive to develop the devices.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 05:28
Originally posted by Constantine XI

The reason they did not make use of the wheel like in the Old World was they lacked any sort of draft animal in the Americas tame enough to be attached to it.
 
Trollies and wheel barrows are still a very useful tool.


Edited by Paul - 17-Jul-2007 at 05:28
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  Quote Yaomitl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 05:18
Ugh. I'm afraid I'm not going to be very good with the links on this, but the wheel or at least its principle was known in pre-Colombian Mexico. There's a famous wheeled toy (a figure of either a deer or a dog) from Classic era Veracruz - the photo turns up in a lot of books so have a look Mary Ellen Miller's The Art of Mesoamerica (Thames & Hudson) should be easy to find - photo is on page 99 of my 1996 edition). Furthermore, I've read the suggestion that the Mexica (and certainly the Olmecs) used wooden logs as rollers to shift those big old stones around. the generally accepted theory as I understand it is that the wheel never really caught on (in Mexico at least) for a number of reasons, these being (1) no large domesticated beast of burden which could pull a wheeled vehicle (2) generally uneven terrain of most of the country made transportation by carrying frame a lot more practical. I've got about a million books on this culture and I must have needed to dip into about half of them over the last week, so I'm sorry but right now I can't even recall where I read that. Best I can do is quote from Eric Wolf's Sons of the Shaking Earth (University of Chicago Press, page 184):
 
Together with horses, oxen, donkeys came the wheel, long known in the Old World but unknown - or rather not utilized - in the New. The Spaniards brought with them their traditional oxcart, put together with wooden pegs and mounted upon spokeless wheels. That the Indians were acquainted with the basic principle of the wheel is clear from finds of fascinating prehistoric toys, mounted upon rollers, from coastal Veracruz. The principle had never been applied, however, to the construction of wheelbarrows or carts to ease men's burdens, or to the mass production of pottery, or to the transmission of wind and water power. Even today there are many Indian villages where the wheel remains an alien artifact and where men rely on their traditional bodily skills to balance heavy burdens upon their backs with the aid of the tumpline, a leather strap laid across the bowed head.
 
So yes and no in other words. Hope that helps.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 05:17
The reason they did not make use of the wheel like in the Old World was they lacked any sort of draft animal in the Americas tame enough to be attached to it.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 05:06
They knew how to make wheels and axles but they only used tem in children's toys. Why they never scaled the technology up is unknown.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 02:31

From most historical sources i have learnt that the Americas didn't know the wheel before columbus. Although recently i have heard some one saying that that notion is wrong. So i am asking the learned here that whether was the wheel known to the Americas (before columbus) or not.

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