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Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Age of Empires
    Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 23:59
Sometimes, when reading through History, i stop and ask myself if we as a human body arent living through history. We are an active part of someone else's history post years from NOW.
 
Then i read about how our minds romanticize and debate the Empires of the past and wonder what about Empires of the Present?
 
Here is a list i have created:
 
American Empire 1776 - present
took over land of Native Americans. started fighting British for independence, then fought Native First Peoples for land between Virginia State and Pacific Ocean; Phillipines, Hawaii, Alaska, fought with Mexico, annexxed Republic of Texas, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Cold War with Russian Empire, Afghano-Iraq War
 
Russian Empire 1400 - present
started as Republic of Muscovy under Mongol Empire. Threw off Golden Horde Empire and began collecting itself, spread East, Kazakh Khanate, Astra Khanate, Siberia Khanate, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbek Khanate, etc. in 1917 lost war with Japan and gained new Philosophy, fought with American Empire, lost in Afghanistan, gave up lands in 1991, back to 1550 borders
 
Chinese Empire 1950-present
After Ming Empire died 1911, Period of Many Parties and Foreign Kingdoms, Maoism destroyed old ritualistic culture and started people fresh, fought Japanese, industry began, conquered East Turkestan, conquered Tibet, fought Indians - - - - Now 2007.
 
Indian Empire 1947 - present
Gandhi fought against British through peace, Political Parties staged guerilla attacks against British Empire, British Empire began collapsing post-WW2; gained Independence and split into 2: Pakistan - India; conquered Kingdom of Kashmir, Kingdom of Hyderabad, Kingdom of Trancore, many other Kingdoms, fought China, fought and won war with Military State of Pakistan, - - - NOW
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 01:39
Originally posted by Mughaal

Russian Empire 1400 - present
started as Republic of Muscovy under Mongol Empire. Threw off Golden Horde Empire and began collecting itself, spread East, Kazakh Khanate, Astra Khanate, Siberia Khanate, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbek Khanate, etc. in 1917 lost war with Japan and gained new Philosophy, fought with American Empire, lost in Afghanistan, gave up lands in 1991, back to 1550 borders


Russia is far more massive than in 1550
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Kevin View Drop Down
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Posts: 767 		  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 18:01
Originally posted by Mughaal

 
 
Russian Empire 1400 - present
started as Republic of Muscovy under Mongol Empire. Threw off Golden Horde Empire and began collecting itself, spread East, Kazakh Khanate, Astra Khanate, Siberia Khanate, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbek Khanate, etc. in 1917 lost war with Japan and gained new Philosophy, fought with American Empire, lost in Afghanistan, gave up lands in 1991, back to 1550 borders
 
 
Russia's "time" as an empire in my opinion ended with the fall of the Soviet Union and is bound to lose more significance in coming years as many institutions suffer from corruption combined with a lackluster economy that is also riddled with corruption.     


Edited by Kevin - 04-Aug-2007 at 19:27
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 21:37
]quote]After Ming Empire died 1911[/quote]
Qing Dynasty actually. And I'd start the communist dynasty in 1949 too
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 00:38
Originally posted by Kevin

[QUOTE=Mughaal]
 
Russia's "time" as an empire in my opinion ended with the fall of the Soviet Union and is bound to lose more significance in coming years as many institutions suffer from corruption combind with a lackluster economy that is also riddled with corruption.     
 
In one sense, we called the Roman Empire the Roman Empire and not the Roman State or the Roman Kingdom when it fast began losing land. Hence i will call it an Empire as long as it maintains whatever vigor it has.
 
Personally i too think it will decline more significantly, im guessing a foreseeable war with China in the coming 100 years.
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Posts: 767 		  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 15:10
Originally posted by Mughaal

Originally posted by Kevin

[QUOTE=Mughaal]
 
Russia's "time" as an empire in my opinion ended with the fall of the Soviet Union and is bound to lose more significance in coming years as many institutions suffer from corruption combind with a lackluster economy that is also riddled with corruption.     
 
In one sense, we called the Roman Empire the Roman Empire and not the Roman State or the Roman Kingdom when it fast began losing land. Hence i will call it an Empire as long as it maintains whatever vigor it has.
 
Personally i too think it will decline more significantly, im guessing a foreseeable war with China in the coming 100 years.
 
I've heard of the possbilty of a war between Russia and China in the future,However Mughaal please explain the circumstances under which this would happen,I'm curious as to your view on this.      
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Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 21:51
I dont know, but as i understand, 2 powers being so close as they are, friction will likely occur.
 
Perhaps Chinese Nationalistic feelings will be revived and they may claim Siberia for themselves (for land and energy) etc.
 
Russia is too expansive and is mostly populated on its West, China could use its land (and energy).
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Posts: 767 		  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2007 at 00:53
Originally posted by Mughaal

I dont know, but as i understand, 2 powers being so close as they are, friction will likely occur.
 
Perhaps Chinese Nationalistic feelings will be revived and they may claim Siberia for themselves (for land and energy) etc.
 
Russia is too expansive and is mostly populated on its West, China could use its land (and energy).
 
Tom Clancy provided a scenario for this in The Bear and The Dragon. However a Chinese conflict that is waged upon Russia is sure to be bloody and very costly for them both politically and economically,Also they won't be gurenteed victory and this could also lead to further escalation like a nuclear war as a possibility. So does China really want to wager such a big gamble with so much at stake and so much to lose? 


Edited by Kevin - 15-Jul-2007 at 00:55
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Posts: 463 		  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 00:52
Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Mughaal

I dont know, but as i understand, 2 powers being so close as they are, friction will likely occur.
 
Perhaps Chinese Nationalistic feelings will be revived and they may claim Siberia for themselves (for land and energy) etc.
 
Russia is too expansive and is mostly populated on its West, China could use its land (and energy).
 
Tom Clancy provided a scenario for this in The Bear and The Dragon. However a Chinese conflict that is waged upon Russia is sure to be bloody and very costly for them both politically and economically,Also they won't be gurenteed victory and this could also lead to further escalation like a nuclear war as a possibility. So does China really want to wager such a big gamble with so much at stake and so much to lose? 


No, Taiwan is first priority.
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Posts: 767 		  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 23:51
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Mughaal

I dont know, but as i understand, 2 powers being so close as they are, friction will likely occur.
 
Perhaps Chinese Nationalistic feelings will be revived and they may claim Siberia for themselves (for land and energy) etc.
 
Russia is too expansive and is mostly populated on its West, China could use its land (and energy).
 
Tom Clancy provided a scenario for this in The Bear and The Dragon. However a Chinese conflict that is waged upon Russia is sure to be bloody and very costly for them both politically and economically,Also they won't be gurenteed victory and this could also lead to further escalation like a nuclear war as a possibility. So does China really want to wager such a big gamble with so much at stake and so much to lose? 


No, Taiwan is first priority.
 
Hoever this according to Tom Clancy,However I do realize that Taiwan is China's first priority at the current time.
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Posts: 818 		  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 02:30
Originally posted by Mughaal

 
American Empire 1776 - present
took over land of Native Americans. started fighting British for independence, then fought Native First Peoples for land between Virginia State and Pacific Ocean; Phillipines, Hawaii, Alaska, fought with Mexico, annexxed Republic of Texas, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Cold War with Russian Empire, Afghano-Iraq War
 
I know i can be incredibly obtuse, but i still blindly fail too see it in it's entirity! Not that i am trying to quibble, but i've never found an answer that would really satisfy my intense inner-curiousity!
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Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 21:48
Okay, this is the way i see it. The Native Americans were actually different people from different political entities.
 
The biggest ones were the:
Iroquois Confederacy
Sioux
Apache
Powhatan Confederacy
Cherokee
Seminole
Hopi
Creek
Cheyenne
Blackfoot....etc
 
Various Natives who fought Western Powers:
Chief Powhatan
Geronimo
Tecumseh
Chief Seattle
Chief Sitting Bull
 
If you think of the Native Americans as distinct political groups with ideals, cultures, human virtues, etc - you respect them as an equal entity.
 
America is an Empire in the sense that it spread from its 13 original Colonial Borders to occupy the Atlantic to the Pacific. What is Manifest Destiny except Imperial Ambition?
 
How many wars did you fight to move the Indians? How many Presidents were Heros in the wars against the Indians? Can you guys remember High School History? What was William Henry Harrison's campaign jingle? "Tippecanoe and Tyler too". Andrew Jackson did what? How many Natives had to be placed in concentration camps due to his Indian Removal Acts?
 
-Jamestown Massacre
-American War of Independence: Western Theatre
-Wounded Knee Massacre
-Creek Wars
-Tecumseh's uprising
-Pontiac's Rebellion
-Geronimo's War with the Apache
-NorthWest Indian War
-Trail of Tears
-Battle of Tippecanoe
-Sand Creek Massacre
 
Consider also one of the reasons Americans wanted to break away from Britain was because Britain made deals with the natives regarding Boundary lines that the Colonists didnt appreciate.
 
This was a time when European powers were still agrarian based economies like the rest of the world, and America didnt adopt a full fledged Industrial economy until the American Civil War. There actually was a reason for Americans to be land hungry, which the Native Americans resented.
 
In the end: America did reach the Pacific and keeps its Natives in camps and reservations.
 
America also fought a war with Spain, then took over Phillipines. It also went fought a war with Mexico for the right of Texas to exist as a republic, but quickly made agreements to secede Texas. Also Mexico handed modern day SW USA to America due to the Mexican-American War.
 
WW1
WW2
 
Vietnam War
Korean War
 
installing dictators around the world for its own benefit
 
Iraq war (oil? geopolitical strategy?)
 
Understand now? Most of the times Empires dont formally declare themselves as such, and America sure as hell wont either. The world is far better educated and Empire carries strong negative connotations in Asia and Africa.


Edited by Mughaal - 29-Aug-2007 at 21:52
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 05:25
1400 is a year with no significance in the history of Russia: 1380 is a more important year. I'd say the rise of Msocow/Muscowy began then. The Russian 'Empire' was born in 1721 though...
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 15:45
I estimated, but your probably right. I count the date from whence Moscowy began to expand its original borders, not the date it reached its modern borders.
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Posts: 1515 		  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 18:43
Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Mughaal

I dont know, but as i understand, 2 powers being so close as they are, friction will likely occur.
 
Perhaps Chinese Nationalistic feelings will be revived and they may claim Siberia for themselves (for land and energy) etc.
 
Russia is too expansive and is mostly populated on its West, China could use its land (and energy).
 
Tom Clancy provided a scenario for this in The Bear and The Dragon. However a Chinese conflict that is waged upon Russia is sure to be bloody and very costly for them both politically and economically,Also they won't be gurenteed victory and this could also lead to further escalation like a nuclear war as a possibility. So does China really want to wager such a big gamble with so much at stake and so much to lose? 
 
Well, I still see Russia as a power in the world, I mean you don't have to be power through your military and army what makes power is might and it could be of any kind.
Russia is a energy tycoon and with just another revolution like of Vladimir Lenin, just think where could it get.
 
On the other hand China also has the military power as well as the economy.
 
Now just imagin if both of these two countries put their hands togather under the banner of Communims, where the world would lead..... I just can't think of any further step than of that as it would be soo bloody and distructive...


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