English domination of Ireland

Perhaps an actual story may help clear up some of the points raised here, or complicate them! Flora McDonald, was the fine lady who helped Bonnie Prince Charlie escape after loss at Culloden by disguising him as her serving maid. She was arrested by the British and sent to the Tower of London for a few months. After her release she advertised for a husband and met a sympathic Scottish captain (who had served the English Redcoats). They married and immigrated to North Carolina to get away from it all. 

However that was not to be. The American War of Independence came along and her brave sons fought on both sides. Their father again fought on the English side and was captured by the Americans who kept him in a Guantanamo Bay like situation. Meanwhile Flora went back to Scotland and lived on the island of Skye. On her death she requested her body be wrapped in a sheet that Bonnie Prince Charlie had slept in.

Speed, bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing,
Onward! the sailors cry;
Carry the lad that's born to be King
Over the sea to Skye.

Loud the winds howl, loud the waves roar,
Thunderclouds rend the air;
Baffled, our foes stand by the shore,
Follow they will not dare.
Speed, bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing,
Onward! the sailors cry;
Carry the lad that's born to be King
Over the sea to Skye.

Though the waves leap, soft shall ye sleep,
Ocean's a royal bed.
Rocked in the deep, Flora will keep
Watch by your weary head.
Speed, bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing,
Onward! the sailors cry;
Carry the lad that's born to be King
Over the sea to Skye.

Many's the lad fought on that day,
Well the claymore could wield,
When the night came, silently lay
Dead in Culloden's field.
Speed, bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing,
Onward! the sailors cry;
Carry the lad that's born to be King
Over the sea to Skye.

Burned are their homes, exile and death
Scatter the loyal men;
Yet e'er the sword cool in the sheath
Charlie will come again.
Speed, bonnie boat, like a bird on the wing,
Onward! the sailors cry;
Carry the lad that's born to be King
Over the sea to Skye.

 �The Skye Boat Bong Song�

Campbells soup made out of Scots, with the Irish thrown in as flavoring? At least it is red tomato instead of gruel! My old Granny used to talk about the Campbell betrayal, but it�s all over now bar the shouting. Let�s face it the English developed more rapidly as a nation and took from what the others could have been if they had the chance.

The situation of the poorer classes in England was not much different from all over nobility ridden Europe except that the winds of change were starting to blow; the British people questioned their rights sooner. Some argue Cromwell and his kind used suppression of neighboring lands as an object lesson to those noted for having an attitude. The slogan of those that ruled them could have been, You rebel; we repel and look how we cut down all those who are not going along with us!

I apologize for incorrectly pointing out the types of Lairds. The uncouth locals lived as Celtic clan chiefs, feasting, fighting and whatever. The couth nobility had grown up around the throne of Scotland doing the same thing, in a more elegant way of course. The point is the native lairds took an awful beating when they rebelled against the throne of England, but they were fighting for those lairds that supported the restitution of the throne of Scotland. It can get confusing about who was fighting for what.

 The situation could have been worse but it is hard to see how for those clansmen that invaded England and had them on the run for a while. I suppose it's better to have tried and failed at mighty things than never tried at all.

 Canadian Boat Song

Listen to me, as when ye heard our father
Sing long ago the song of other shores -
Listen to me, and then in chorus gather
All your deep voices, as ye pull your oars.

From the lone shieling of the misty island
Mountains divide us, and waste of seas -
Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland,
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

We never shall tread the fancy-haunted valley,
Where 'tween the dark hills creeps the small clear stream,
In arms around the patriarch banner rally,
Nor see the moon on royal tombstones gleam.

When the bold kindred, in the time long vanished,
Conquered the soil and fortified the keep -
No seer foretold the children would be banished,
That a degenerate lord might boast his sheep.

Come foreign rage - let Discord burst in slaughter!
O then for clansmen true, and stern claymore
The hearts that would have given their blood like water,
Beat heavily beyond the Atlantic roar.
Fair these broad meadows - these hoary woods are grand
But we are exiles from our father's land.

sheiling=highland hut used when herding cattle from lower to upper valley
claymore=Highland broadsword

 This song was written by an anonymous author in the 18th century at a time when the Highland clans were breaking up and emigration to foreign shores was growing into a flood.

I agree with you Dolphin, whatever the motives Paul did not choose his words very well. To stir things in another way why keep on saying Protestant? Surely you mean the Church of England? Despite present day reforms (they are officially the Anglican Church now) here was a strange beast that was neither one nor the other for a long time. We all know the history (many histories?) of Henry breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church by setting up a church to force a separation between church and state.  

Whether this was a good or bad move depends. However, the idea spread around the world. Governments gradually became elected for their political ability and not for their knowledge of religion. Those people who said �I protest� (against political rule by the Church) became known as the Protestants. Those for the Church claimed a country could have proper rule without spiritual basis and all people need to develop a Catholic (worldwide) point of view, so we get Catholics and Protestants.

However, the old Church of England considered they were upholding the rights of man, maintaining the Catholic and Apostolic Faith while only being Protestant with regard to the Roman Catholic Church. It can be argued the true Protestants were the ones that protested against the Church of England and that definition definitely included Irish and Scottish Catholics!

The famine came to be seen widely in Britain as a confirmation of the prevailing Malthusian doctrine (Thmas Malthus was a leading classical liberal economist) that asserted that poverty and famines were the consequences of a combination of indolence and lack of "moral restraint" by the poor, which inevitably led to over-population and, eventually, food shortages due to inadequate resources. Whereas it had once been hailed widely as the miracle food-source, the potato now came to be denounced as the "lazy root" which, by allowing the Irish peasants to provide for themselves with the minimum of effort and efficiency, had perpetuated Ireland's backward economic state and allowed the land to support a much larger population than was desirable. From this point of view, "indiscriminate charity" by the British would only encourage continued Irish irresponsibility: like the "lazy potato", charity could lead only to either a recurrence of the famine or permanent Irish dependence on British aid. These views were expressed not only in leading organs of public opinion (such as The Times), but also by leading Cabinet members. Charles Edward Trevelyan, the British Treasury Secretary overseeing Irish famine relief, regarded the famine as a providential lesson to the Irish to become less feckless and more industrious! From this point of view, the best course was to allow the famine to drive home its lesson and encourage the Irish to improve their morals and work habits. Indeed, many saw the famine as a welcome opportunity to wean the Irish off the potato, reconstruct Ireland's agricultural economy, and reform the Irish character. Such callous attitudes only hardened following the abortive Young Ireland uprising in 1848. ⁽³⁾

You are well informed edgewaters! The overall effect of the English invasions was to push the Irish onto marginal lands where they had to grow potatoes for a living. Like every good conqueror of other nations, past, present or future the English Royal Church establishment (who were not Protestant really) pushed the unwilling natives who wouldn�t kiss their ass onto marginal lands where they had to scratch around for a living. The hopelessness of the situation never does serve to inspire but keeps the future generations in a state of constant dire poverty.

What else the English genius for divide and conquer doing in the dreaming fields, the rolling mists of the Irish countryside? You mean they kept on invading over many centuries to dig up some peat or gather a few dirty sacks of cheap potatoes? One word, horses. Under the cover of the flim-flam diversion of religious division they quietly spearheaded inland to raise horses for their world expansion. Never heard of it? If you haven�t then their plan of making people argue about the unimportant side issues still works perfectly. Racehorses still are an integral part of the Irish economy! Irish history should be taken as a whole not just as a part.