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Creation of Israel.

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Israel.
    Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 10:49
In the 1760s European Jews were all about to follow Sabbatai Zevi to Palestine until he swapped from Jewish Messiah to Muslim convert unexpectedly.
Unexpectedly? Well, let me put it this way, the Ottomans 'made him an offer he can't refuse'.  
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 11:35
 oh geez

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Leonidas


Proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

look at how the treat Arab citizens, not the formal law but in reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
None of that is religious. Jews are favoured because they're Jews, not because of their religion. Atheist Jews have risen to top positions in Israel. (see my other post)


They're all Jewish, or at least believed to be. That's an ethnic distinction. They do NOT all believe in Judaism - in fact only a minority do. So it's not religious. The US is a far more religious country, de facto, than Israel is. The US only permits, de facto, Christian Presidents. On the other hand Obama can be president of the US, but could never be of Israel (again, de facto).

your splitting hairs in religiousness and religious affiliation. Yes you can have secular Jews and full on hardcore types, but their uniqueness is religious. There is no such thing as one type of ethnic Jew, they are many types but they share the same religious tradition/s. Now they may see themselves as ethnic 'via the mother' but they seem to struggle with just that definition alone. Same ethnic yet they come from Africa, India and M/East and treat each other differently by race.

lets dig a bit deeper

what is a jew according to the law of return


Definition

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

Link

then stuff like this happens

Messianic Jews are not entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship, Israel's Supreme Court has ruled, concluding that their belief that Jesus was the Messiah makes them Christians instead of Jews.

...........................

In their ruling, the Israeli justices rejected this view. A Source of Tension

''Messianic Jews attempt to reverse the wheels of history by 2,000 years,'' Justice Elon wrote in a passage quoted by the Israeli newspapers. ''But the Jewish people has decided during the 2,000 years of its history'' that Messianic Jews ''do not belong to the Jewish nation and have no right to force themselves on it. Those who believe in Jesus are, in fact, Christians.''

The law in question has been a frequent source of tension between secular and religious Jews in Israel.

The main quarrel is over attempts by religious leaders to amend the law to recognize only converts to Judaism by Orthodox rabbis. Such a change would make it more difficult for many American and Canadian Jews who belong to the Reform and Conservative streams to immigrate.


 NYT 1989

they they seem to get a break eventaully in 2008

Myers told CBN News, "The bottom line is that if your father is Jewish or if any of your grandparents are Jewish from your father's side - even if you're a Messianic Jew - you can immigrate to Israel under the law of return or under the law of citizenship if you marry an Israeli citizen."

Myers also told CBNNews.com, "This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world."

Many of the applicants received letters saying they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity." One was told that because she "committed missionary activity," she was "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people."

link

sometimes the ethnic but doesnt hold water or get you past the gates.

first lines of their declaration if independence, my bolding


ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.
Link

If you want more proof of the religoius angle look at marraiges in isreal.

.
The key to why you are wrong there is 'in tandem with the US'. The Saudis are interested in exporting their brand of Islam to the Muslim world, but, despite the rhetoric, they've never nbeen particularly aggressive toward Israel - partly because of the US alliance, but basically because the Saudis and Israel don't have much to quarrel about.
Yeah I agree they don't have much to quarrel about, The Saudi monarchy are more concerned about spending 'their' money and staying in power, you might not get such an attitude amongst its people. Two gloves for each hand of the US, hmm makes them less dangerous? surely not.  Isreal/US/Wahabi were eye to eye in using these very dangerous proxies and they came back to bite them on the arse at roughly the same time. Yet they point to Syria or Iran as being some how special or unique at this game? If you train a dog to attack and it mauls you once it gets the taste, you were at the very least partly mauled by your own action. not someone elses.

This is about percetion not reality. Syrian ideology is not religious or messianic, modern compared to the arab puppet states (which may be perceived as 'aggressive).
 

 Syria wants the Golan back and has made overtures, it is isreal thats not that interested.
Exactly. Israel doesn't have any Saudi territory, and the Saudis don't have any Israeli territory (or even any claims on the West Bank). Egypt and Jordan have made peace, Lebanon's too small to worry about, and that leaves Syria as the only real opponent.
hang on who being aggressive? or im missing something. Peace overtues vs occupation.

I didnt say Syria and Israel were at loggerheads, merely that Syria was a bigger threat to Israel (potentially) than Saudi Arabia. And vice versa. Israel is the only threat to Syria around.
 
Turkey is a threat to Syria. Syria is hardly a threat to Isreal (or Turkey)  if it prefers peace talks and has more pragmatic leadership than our media suggest. Bush is gone watch this space.

The biggest potential conventional threat is Egypt.


Edited by Leonidas - 23-Jan-2009 at 11:38
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 12:50
Yes. Turkey-Syria relations have improved greatly within the last decade (especially after AKP government). Turkey is mediating peace talks between Israel and Syria as well. I think it is not impossible that Syria may agree to peace in return for Golan like Egypt did. The problem was the neo-cons had Syria on their hit list. Luckily they frack up everything in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as at home, so Syria is safe now.     
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 13:19
that is true there is no tensions there anymore. AKP at least is trying to balance that whole legacy coldwar anglo-zionist-turk threesome thing with some bridge building diplomacy. Not hard, the other two should try it.

ontop of all of that Iran offered to help the US in Afghanistan agianst the Taliban/al qeada powers and were re-buffed. Its was the Sauds and UAE that has to cut ties after 9/11. So all this 'aggressor' stuff is just code for independant policy/interests.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 20:34

Originally posted by gcle2003

The vast majority of the original Zionists were secular, many if not most of them Marxist: certainly only a few of them were Judaic believers.

 
This is very true. The atheist/agnostic Zionists made up the majority of the movement, including the most influential names like Herzl, Weizmann, Pinsker, etc. Its interesting when you read their views on religion--- they call rabbis "peddlers of influence" who will aid them in convincing people to move back to Palestine, even though they themselves did not believe in any "holy" or "divine" aspect of Palestine. They simply chose Palestine because they would be able to more easily trick people into going there based on vague religious references. There is a long story about how they chose Palestine--- Herzl was actually bullied into agreeing on Palestine by east European Zionists. Herzl was more in favor of Argentina. Actually if I remember correctly Herzl favored any option over Palestine.
 
You know what--- I'll try to find Zionist quotes where they talk about religion, and where they talk about locations other than Palestine--- I'll even try to find the quotes where European Zionists visited Jerusalem and did nothing but complain about it. These quotes are very revealing about the movement and how they used religious sentiment to trick the world and to trick many Jews into joining Zionism, which is a de-facto God-less movement.
 
 
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

No its not. That's the whole point of Israel, and the whole reason Palestine was chosen. Because in Jewish belief it is the land given by God to the Jews. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether the zionists in the '40s were religious or not. They saw Palestine as their land because of their religious mythology. That's the whole point!
 
You're essentially right but you have the order backwards. Atheist/agnostic Zionists agreed on Palestine as the sight of a Jewish state simply because they would be able to herd the masses of Jews who were already settled into their respective countries--- they did NOT choose Palestine because of any religious significance--- if it was somehow easier to make world Jewry move to Argentina, they would have chosen Argentina (they almost did too).
 
Actually, Palestine alone would not have convinced Zionists to get up and move, since most Zionists were not religious. This brings us to Zionism's lust for antisemitism: European antisemitism was, according to Herzl, the greatest ally of Zionism. Case in point: Israelis were never a majority in Palestine until after the Holocaust. Even the previous Zionist migrations to Palestine were mostly made possible because of antisemitic pogroms in Europe, mostly eastern Europe, which is why it was eastern European Jews who bullied Herzl into choosing Palestine, because east European Jews lived in Jewish communities which were virtually closed off to the rest of their respective countries. They were still mostly atheist/agnostic, but their communities were closed off and the resulting antisemitism made them more of a nation than their religion did. Antisemitism helping Zionism--- a common theme in the movement and attitude of its followers.
 
 
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

They didn't sit down in 1897 and decide to invade Palestine for no reason. They has always been waiting to 'go back to the holy land'. In the 1760s European Jews were all about to follow Sabbatai Zevi to Palestine until he swapped from Jewish Messiah to Muslim convert unexpectedly.
 
In 1897 they still had not decided on a location. That happened in the early 20th century, in 1904 I believe, when Herzl was bullied into changing his agenda.
 
As I already mentioned, the "return to Palestine" was never a yearning among world Jewry, it was another fabrication of God-less Zionism. If there was such a yearning to return, how come when Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire for centuries, most Ottoman Jews chose to live in places like Constantinople, Salonika, Alexandria, etc? Palestine was right under their noses and there was nothing stopping them from moving there for centuries--- yet, at the time of the Balfour declaration (1917) Jews made up less than 10% of Palestine's population with a mere 55,000 souls (compared to 700,000+ Palestinian Arabs). To compare this figure to other parts of the Ottoman empire, Jews in Salonika (Thessaloniki) made up over 50% of the population in the early 20th century with over 60,000 Jews living there (not counting crypto-Jews). Even if we ignore all Ottoman regions and only focus on Salonika and Palestine, only the minority of Jews lived in Palestine, at a time when they were free to move there.
 
 
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Playing with semantics. Modern Judaism is a ethno-religious identity. You can't separate the religious and ethnic components. An ethiopian Jew and a European Jew share nothing but religion, and a common claim on ancestory even if one or both of them may not be very religious.
 
So if 2 people, one African and another European, have nothing in common besides a religion that their grandparents believed in, which they themselves do not believe, then that automatically qualifies them as part of the same ethno-religious entity? By this logic we can fabricate nations out of thin air (as is already the case).
 
So I can claim to be part of the same ethno-religious group as an Ethiopian simply because we've both been baptised in eastern Churches? Or maybe I'm part of the same group as an Assyrian living in Iran for the same reason, even though I'm neither Assyrian nor Iranian? This is a very inconsistant way to identify nations. If I was a devout Christian, then maybe I can claim to be of the same entity as a devout Ethiopian Christian--- a very shaky claim, but it could work. Likewise Jews from different areas have virtually nothing in common if they are not devout Judaists. If most Zionists do not practice Judaism, then it disqualifies them as part of a "Jewish" or "Israeli" nation, or any nation for that matter, when you consider they each have different native tongues, different habits, different cuisines, different attitudes, each shaped by the country in which they were raised.


Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 23-Jan-2009 at 20:41
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 06:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQoWJt5wfJ8

Pretty good documentary - and case in point to the treatment of non-Jews within Israel.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 14:57
Originally posted by Leonidas

 oh geez

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Leonidas


Proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

look at how the treat Arab citizens, not the formal law but in reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
None of that is religious. Jews are favoured because they're Jews, not because of their religion. Atheist Jews have risen to top positions in Israel. (see my other post)


They're all Jewish, or at least believed to be. That's an ethnic distinction. They do NOT all believe in Judaism - in fact only a minority do. So it's not religious. The US is a far more religious country, de facto, than Israel is. The US only permits, de facto, Christian Presidents. On the other hand Obama can be president of the US, but could never be of Israel (again, de facto).

your splitting hairs in religiousness and religious affiliation.
It's a mighty big hair. There's a Church of England, but that doesn't mean I belong to it, or even share any of its tenets.
Yes you can have secular Jews and full on hardcore types, but their uniqueness is religious.
They're not unique in the first place.
There is no such thing as one type of ethnic Jew, they are many types but they share the same religious tradition/s.
You mean their ancestors followed Judaic teaching at some point? Possible I suppose, but then it's also possoible they can trace their ancestry back to Palestine. Both are ultimately unjustified assertions.
 
And again, most of my ancestors over the last 500 years were Church of England. Before that they were Roman Catholics. What's that supposed to mean about my religious beliefs (or lack of them)?
Now they may see themselves as ethnic 'via the mother' but they seem to struggle with just that definition alone. Same ethnic yet they come from Africa, India and M/East and treat each other differently by race.

lets dig a bit deeper

what is a jew according to the law of return


Definition

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

So, contrary to what you're trying to assert, the Law of Return does no bar Jews who do not practise Judaism (which is most of the Israeli citizenry) from citizenship. I'll leave in the rest of what you say, but on this point it's irrelevant.
 
Compare it for instance to Germany law of return, which is only open to persons of Germanic descent. Or Britain's for that matter, that only grants automatic right of residence to people with a British grandparent.
 
And note too that all this is only about automatic citizenship. Just like in other countries, people can become Israeli citizens with no ethnic or religious requirement through naturalisation, mush as with any other country.
 
 
Link

then stuff like this happens

Messianic Jews are not entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship, Israel's Supreme Court has ruled, concluding that their belief that Jesus was the Messiah makes them Christians instead of Jews.

...........................

In their ruling, the Israeli justices rejected this view. A Source of Tension

''Messianic Jews attempt to reverse the wheels of history by 2,000 years,'' Justice Elon wrote in a passage quoted by the Israeli newspapers. ''But the Jewish people has decided during the 2,000 years of its history'' that Messianic Jews ''do not belong to the Jewish nation and have no right to force themselves on it. Those who believe in Jesus are, in fact, Christians.''

The law in question has been a frequent source of tension between secular and religious Jews in Israel.

The main quarrel is over attempts by religious leaders to amend the law to recognize only converts to Judaism by Orthodox rabbis. Such a change would make it more difficult for many American and Canadian Jews who belong to the Reform and Conservative streams to immigrate.


 NYT 1989

they they seem to get a break eventaully in 2008

Myers told CBN News, "The bottom line is that if your father is Jewish or if any of your grandparents are Jewish from your father's side - even if you're a Messianic Jew - you can immigrate to Israel under the law of return or under the law of citizenship if you marry an Israeli citizen."

Myers also told CBNNews.com, "This is yet another battle won in our war to establish equality in Israel for the Messianic Jewish community just like every other legitimate stream of faith within the Jewish world."

Many of the applicants received letters saying they would not receive citizenship because they "commit missionary activity." One was told that because she "committed missionary activity," she was "acting against the interests of the State of Israel and against the Jewish people."

link

sometimes the ethnic but doesnt hold water or get you past the gates.

first lines of their declaration if independence, my bolding


ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.
Link

If you want more proof of the religoius angle look at marraiges in isreal.
 
Most people in Britain get married in church. That's about all they go there for. It certainly doesn't make them religious.


.
The key to why you are wrong there is 'in tandem with the US'. The Saudis are interested in exporting their brand of Islam to the Muslim world, but, despite the rhetoric, they've never nbeen particularly aggressive toward Israel - partly because of the US alliance, but basically because the Saudis and Israel don't have much to quarrel about.
Yeah I agree they don't have much to quarrel about, The Saudi monarchy are more concerned about spending 'their' money and staying in power, you might not get such an attitude amongst its people. Two gloves for each hand of the US, hmm makes them less dangerous? surely not.  Isreal/US/Wahabi were eye to eye in using these very dangerous proxies and they came back to bite them on the arse at roughly the same time. Yet they point to Syria or Iran as being some how special or unique at this game? If you train a dog to attack and it mauls you once it gets the taste, you were at the very least partly mauled by your own action. not someone elses.

This is about percetion not reality. Syrian ideology is not religious or messianic, modern compared to the arab puppet states (which may be perceived as 'aggressive).
 

 Syria wants the Golan back and has made overtures, it is isreal thats not that interested.
Exactly. Israel doesn't have any Saudi territory, and the Saudis don't have any Israeli territory (or even any claims on the West Bank). Egypt and Jordan have made peace, Lebanon's too small to worry about, and that leaves Syria as the only real opponent.
hang on who being aggressive? or im missing something.
You're not missing something, you're making stuff up. I didn't say Syria was aggressive. I just said, in response to someone's specific question, Syria was more of an enemy than Saudi Arabia. You seem to agree with me on that.
 Peace overtues vs occupation.

I didnt say Syria and Israel were at loggerheads, merely that Syria was a bigger threat to Israel (potentially) than Saudi Arabia. And vice versa. Israel is the only threat to Syria around.
 
Turkey is a threat to Syria.
I wasn't aware of that. It's hardly very relevant though it does work to strike Turkey off the list of Israel's enemies (it used of course to be friendly with Israel anyway).
 
Syria is hardly a threat to Isreal (or Turkey)  if it prefers peace talks and has more pragmatic leadership than our media suggest. Bush is gone watch this space.

The biggest potential conventional threat is Egypt.
 
Not currently. In my original post I said Egypt was at one time until it saw sense. So far you haven't said one thing to go against my statement that Syria is more of an enemy to Israel than Saudi Arabia, or indeed any other country at the moment.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 00:02

I was wondering about the high percentage of Jews we got on 16th of January from Hebrewtext.

The main immigration of Jews towards Ottoman Palestine began after 1880. The amount of Jews in 1880 was around 15000 Ottoman Jews and perhaps an estimated amount of 10000 foreign Jews. All in all there lived about 460000 people in Palestine, including about 43000 Christians.

In 1850 there lived 380000 people in Palestine. Just 13000 were Jews, 27000 were Christians but 340000 were Muslimes or Druze.

In 1914 from 720000 inhabitants there were just 39000 Ottoman Jews. The amount of jewish foreigners is difficult to say. Especially jewish sources claim it very high. Trustful sources give just about 20000 foreigners.

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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 09:15
Originally posted by Zaitsev

 


The "Jewish People" do not need a homeland.
 

 
 
Whether there is one or not,many Jews seem not wanting to live there as evident by Jew Diaspora still exists LOL ... why !?
 
They have been and still continue to whine about being prosecuted Ouch ( which is certainly true ) in adopted lands for thousand years,but they surely don't want to go back to their homeland.Why ?!
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 22:45
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Let us not forget that it was, quite honestly, the fault of the Jewish population of Judea that they lost the territory in the first place. While the Jews certainly did suffer, that does not entitle them to any land. The Jewish population were, in fact, not really a Jewish population. They were citizens of Germany, Poland, France, Russia. They all had a country to return to. Dividing nations along religious/cultural grounds is something Western nations would typically describe as racist and totalitarian.


This is true to a point but many were refugees from Arab countries.
What about the 1 million Jews who were forced to leave Arab lands?

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 23:34
Have not paricipated in the thread, but it's true, most of Israel's jewish population is of arab origin in fact, expelled from their lands. Though question arise whther theu'd be expelled if Israel was created or not.
(I' going to do some digging in the thread right now propably, before I continue) 

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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 13:02
Originally posted by xristar

 
but it's true, most of Israel's Jewish population is of Arab origin in fact,expelled from their lands.
 
 
 
 
They're regard as " Oriental " Jews.Many years ago,I've read there is a division between European Jews & Oriental Jews.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 13:36
Hello to you all
 
What a lie!
 
1 million Arab jews forced out of the Arab world?
 
The total number of jews in the Arab lands was 600K of them 400k lived in three countries, Algeria (then a French colony), Tunisia (then a French protectorate) and finally Morocco (then a French protectorate also). French occupation of these countries ended between 9 and 15 (From 56 till 62) years after Israel was created and during those years nearly all of the jews left these countries peacefully and willingly and it is well documented.
 
As for Jews in the rest of the Arab world the Arab countries actually forbade them from immigrating. Egypt and Syria forbade their 60k native jews (those with foreign passports who made the majority of the 80k Egyptian jews left before Israel was created most to Israel but some Europe while Egypt was under British military rule). The rest fled because of the infamous Lavon affaire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair) where (surprise surprise) the Mossad attacked jews and American interests and blamed it on the Egyptians causing a stir. Anyway Israel if I am not mistaken have already accepted the fact that jews were not forced from Egypt and that they left freely. Egypt has already made a massive dossiers of some 100 thousand different documents containing wills, real estate deeds, news paper adds and what not (read some myself) that prove jews sold their property at or above market prices and declared in those adds their intention to leave the country and some had the audacity to declare their intention to leave for Israel. In syria jews were forbidden from immigrating unless they voluntarily give up their lands for free. Many chose this but many didn't and letting Syrian jews (about 20k) leave was one of the conditions of peace negotiations back in the 90s and they were let go.
 
In Yemen the 50k jews left by their own free will too in a famous operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Magic_Carpet_(Yemen)) and it is their pictures in tents that are the ones you see when ever one is talking about  this alledged expulsion. The US and the UK financed this operation and convinced the Imam to let them leave and the prise was a united Yemen. There were no pogroms nor attacks on jews or a mass government conspiracy. Documents from the British have exhonorated the Yemenis of any forced expulsion allegation. (by the way Yemen was also a British protectorate).
 
Only in Iraq did any real intentional government sanctioned expulsion happened and only there (a mere 150K compared with the 1.2 original Palestinian refugees and their 5 million descendents). Enough lies please.
 
P.S.
 
One note, Only 10% of jews in Israel are from Arab and Islamic countries. The rest are migrants from europe and elswhere.
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 12-Mar-2009 at 13:43
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 12:58
and Yemen, Syria and Iraq from the top of mind
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 13:16
Please read my post carefully.
 
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 14:28

Originally posted by Al Jassas

Please read my post carefully.
With pleasure. Smile I agree, no more distortions.

Originally posted by Leonidas

and Yemen, Syria and Iraq from the top of mind
In the very early days, Isreal was disappointed at the number of Iraqi Jews making a voluntary "home coming". The fledgling Mossad was then employed to "encourage" the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Isreal.  Rumors were spread of impending massacares, anonymous death threats made to prominent Jews and perhaps a few Jewish stores stores destroyed by mysterious arsons. Even after this, the vast magority of Iraqi Jews stayed in Iraq until the forced expulsions (as Al Jassas mentions).  
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Many chose this but many didn't and letting Syrian jews (about 20k) leave was one of the conditions of peace negotiations back in the 90s and they were let go. 
And even after this, there are still about 3,000 Jews voluntarily living in Syria. 
 
 
As a side note, even the Taliban crazies left the Synagouge in Kabul intact and local Jews were not killed (granted that there were only two elderly Jewish men in Kabul). Even still,  they were allowed to live unmolested on the Synagouge property during the Taliban occupation. Iran still has a Jewish population. Yes, they have been harassed, but there has never been an effort to expel them in mass or to imprison them in mass.  


Edited by Cryptic - 13-Mar-2009 at 15:13
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Earl
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  Quote nuvolari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 12:45
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

After WWII there was a semi-secret talk between the Portuguese and British governments envisaging the creation of a new state of Israel in Angola. Tongue

 
Madagascar was also considered.
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  Quote nuvolari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 12:54
Originally posted by pekau

I was just wondering... the establishment of Israel in Middle East clearly did not work out. What if you, as the representive of the victorious Allies, had the power to decide where Israel will be established? Where would you create and and why?
 
And according to your decision, how would it change the world we live in today? Towards better? Towards worse?
 
Just a note: This has nothing to do with antisemtism or any other negative attitude towards current Israel. It's just another typical "What if" question.
 
 
 
A question to ponder is WHY were the Jews thought to be deserving of "Their Own Land" ?
We all know that they have been horribly oppressed since time immemorial (this fact, too, begs numerous questions ! ), and never more so than by the Nazis, but then so have other albeit smaller minority groups, and they were never deemed suitable to have a land of their own. Since the Jews have hardly ever been settled successfully (other than in the USA who accepted everyone at one time.......more fool them ! )wherever they were put, it does prompt the question as to why ANYWHERE was ever thought to be suitable, let alone when they were put into Arab territory amongst people not known for their tolerance or compassion !
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 13:05
Originally posted by Al Jassas

One note, Only 10% of jews in Israel are from Arab and Islamic countries. The rest are migrants from europe and elswhere.
 
Al-Jassas


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

According to statics, 38% of Israeli Jews are of European ancestry, 38% are of Middle-Eastern and North African ancestry. The rest are of mixed, Ethiopian, Indian, Central Asian, Caucasian Oriental origins.
From what it looks like, most distinct Jewish groups have integrated very thoroughly after the first generation.
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  Quote nuvolari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 15:37
I cannot say that I am surprised at the percentage of various ancestries from which the Jews in Israel spring, and the comment re their ability to assimilate easily with one another is entirely predictable given that they are and always will be more Jewish than Israeli, irrespective of their origins. This, I think, is the crux of the matter and the point that is central to my original thread i.e.that despite wherever they reside they are Jewish first and British/French/Canadian etc.etc.etc. second.  This, and their other shortcomings i.e. their seeming inability to forgive and forget (as per my original thread) makes them essentially what they are....whatever that is ?
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