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calvo
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Topic: sexual segregation in Muslim -Christian religions Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 16:13 |
Hi,
Joined the forum last week but I'm interested in all aspects of history, especially social issues, ethnic relations, and class struggles.
One thing that I've always been intrigued about is why are Judeo-Christian religions so obsessed with the segregation of sexes?
In most Muslim countries today there seems to be a great emphasis in keeing men and women separate on all social and public situation in order to discourage any type of social interraction.
Of course, not ALL Muslim nations are like that but most of them are.
Conservative Christians are no better, in Spain as late of the 20th century the situation was probably not so much better than in many Muslim countries today. Many older Spaniards today are still scandalized by their daughters hanging out with boys.
Where does this obsession come from? What purpose does it serve? It must have an anthropological explanation.
Apparently, in many ancient civilizations like the Persians, Egyptians, and even the Romans, although society was dominated by men, there was no instustitionilized gender segregation as observed in the Christian and Muslim age.
Anybody have any clues?
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Donasin
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:36 |
Lust is impure so if you can keep the two sexes away from each other lust will not come about.
Since this concept lasted so long it was hardwired into the brains of some making thought of social interaction almost a taboo.
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morticia
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Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 14:57 |
Hi to Calvo and Donasin and welcome to both of you to the women's forum at AE.
Calvo, I wish I knew the answer to your questions, but I don't. I, personally, have never been exposed to a life where women were not included as equals in every aspect of life, and, therefore, am at a loss to explain why some cultures are the way they are in its segregation of women and in considering them second class citizens and not as equals. As you stated, history well documents women who were very powerful and ruling figures at some point, but,again, I'm at a loss as to what incident occurred which brought women beneath men in status. I hope someone here at AE can shed some more light and help us with some answers.
Donasin, while it may be true that keeping the two sexes away from each other may avoid unnecessary temptations, IMO, I think men have gone a bit overboard in thier mistreatment of women. Men have had free reign and access to do whatever they wanted, including having other wives/mistresses, while forbidding the opposite sex from the freedoms which they should also be entitled to. I call that selfishness.
Thank you both for your contribution here!
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
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calvo
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Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 14:22 |
What I have read somewhere, is that the practice of sex segregation was a social norm of the ancient Semetic peoples of the Middle East, while among indo-european, Turkic, Egyptian, Estruscan, and native American cultures it was not.
However, Judaism, Chistianity, and Islam are all Semetic religions, and when they colonised much of the world they spread certain ancient Semetic customs with them...
For example, the Persians used to be a society in which women had a very important role in society, politics, and even in the military, but after adopting Islam everything changes. Look at the situation of Iran now!
I'm not saying that this is the case, just one explanation. But even if it was true, then why would the Semetic peoples have practiced it in the first place? It must have had its anthropological purpose
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Mumbloid
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Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 04:04 |
IMO some of the gender segregation rules was for protection of the women. To protect the future of the community.....hide them from other (dangerous) men.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 04:31 |
One thing that I've always been intrigued about is why are Judeo-Christian religions so obsessed with the segregation of sexes?
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Relegation, not segregation of sexes.
have never been exposed to a life where women were not included as equals in every aspect of life,
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But morticia equality of sexes is blatantly not true, women are not equal to men in every aspect of life. Women are better at language and social skills for instance. The sexes weren't designed to be equal but to be complementary, everything isn't 50/50 some things are 60/40 and others are 20/80. I will agree that discrimination is on it's way to being eradicated but I don't think that women and men will ever be truly equal.
Men have had free reign and access to do whatever they wanted,
including having other wives/mistresses, while forbidding the opposite
sex from the freedoms which they should also be entitled to. I call
that selfishness.
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And I call it socio-biological pragmatism. It is one of the most basic animal instincts combined with culture. Women will ALWAYS know that their child is truly theirs but men have no idea which child is theirs, in order to propagate their genes effectively they have put all sorts of cultural restrictions on the sexual behavior of certain female roles, notice though that even historically there are groups of women that fall out of this set-up most noticeably prostitutes, men haven't for the most part tried to restrict access of other men to these women.
It must have an anthropological explanation.
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My belief is that during our early history we were ruled by women as biology and society dictated our natural roles. Women could not hunt in our hunter-gatherer societies because they would be pregnant, or have a child to carry or to follow closely behind them. This meant that men would be gone for extensive periods and women would govern the home-base. Women controlled religion, history and distribution of resources. Men however controlled trade with other tribes as their scouting parties met the scouting parties of other tribes. As populations swelled, trade became more frequent, and warfare (an escalation of negotiations in trade) also became more frequent. As trade and warfare consumed resources, men slowly took away the power of distribution of resources from women, this led to the slow transition of power from women to men. And as we all know men have only been in a position of power for 8,000 years or so. The power of women probably lasted 80,000 years if not longer, so really who is the more cunning of the two sexes?
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calvo
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Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 07:14 |
Janus,
What do you mean by "relegation" exactly?
In many Muslim cultures today, the rules applied are no doubt "segregation", and often to an exagerated manner.
In Iran and Saudi Arabia men and women are separated in almost all public spaces: from theatres, lecture halls, cinemas, football stadiums; and speaking to a member of the opposite sex who's not your spouse could be a criminal offense.
In Afghanistan during the Talibans, farmers were not even allowed to have 2 animals of the opposite sex in case it might give humans "impure ideas".
Even in liberal Muslim countries like Turkey, one can see far less women on the streets than men; and when a western female tourist walks along baring her shoulders and legs all the men would stare at her as something really exotic.
In conservative Catholic countries similar rules also applied until recent decades, but usually not as extreme as in fundamentalist Islamic states.
As late until the 70s, few Spanish women would put on a bikini.
I agree with you and the 2 sexes are complementary, not equal, but what needs to be achieved is equality in legal and social rights.
What you say about women ruling society when we were hunter-gatherers.... I'm not 100% sure of this assumption considering that no historical sources are there to confirm it.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 11:21 |
What do you mean by "relegation" exactly?
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I mean that there are strictly defined roles for the sexes in each religion, and it is considered taboo to deviate from those roles.
What you say about women ruling society when we were
hunter-gatherers.... I'm not 100% sure of this assumption considering
that no historical sources are there to confirm it.
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Then what about all of those fat lady statues in neolithic Europe? And why must their be historical sources when it follows logically, and besides the roles are very similar in contemparary hunter-gatherer societies.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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morticia
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Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 14:48 |
Originally posted by Mumbloid
IMO some of the gender segregation rules was for protection of the women. To protect the future of the community.....hide them from other (dangerous) men.
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I could very well understand this reasoning. At a time when men openly lusted after women, it would be important for a man to "hide" his woman from other "roving" eyes. It probably was a way to get back or even with an enemy - by taking his woman and ravaging her. That probably was the cause of many altercations. But, we can't keep living in the past and pretend we're not in the 21st century. Those days are over, but, yet, still many women are being treated as possessions and objects instead of humans with needs and desires.
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
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