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calvo 
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Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
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 Topic: Russian/soviet ethnic labelsPosted: 24-Jun-2007 at 13:36 |
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From the post regarding Russian-Kazakh relations, I'm suprised to discover the similarities between Kazan Tartar and Kazakh.
Very often I wonder about whether the ethnic labels applied by the Russians and Soviets to the Turkic nationalities are anthropologically valid.
For example, the "Tartars", as an ethnic group, are subdivided into Crimean Tartar, Kazan Tartar, and Siberian tartars..., and more; various groups that are geographically far apart with little history in common. On the other hand, Kazakhs and Bashkirs are considered as distinct ethnicities to the Tartars.
Wouldn't it be more logically to group Kazan Tartars, Bashkirs, and Kazakhs into a wider ethnic category than to group the Kazan Tartars, Crimean Tartars, and Siberian Tartars into one family?
What do Kazan tartars, Siberian Tartars, and Crimean Tartars really have in common for the Russians to lump them all together under the name "Tartar"?
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Bulldog
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Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 15:22 |
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It would be better if Russians stopped thinking that they can keep labelling and making up new names for Turk groups.
Tatars, Kazaks, Karachays, Kumyk are Kipchak Turks, that's why they have alot in common.
Tribes make up clans, clans make confederations, unity of confederations grows to a nation. Turks are a nation which have many confederations, clans and tribes.
Kayi, Bayat, Salur, Afshar are not ethnics/nations they are large clans, they belong to Oguz Turks, Oguz belongs to Turks. What I'm saying is that at their root they're Turks and its incorrect to call tribal names as the name of a nation.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 16:28 |
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Dear calvo, of course this similarities exist, simly because all these ehtnicities are turkic.
The origins of the name "Tatar" are historical. All the Tatars (Kazan, Crimean and Siberian) were the inhabitants of the state of the Golden Horde. And the common name Tatar for them among Russians existed because they were "citizens" of one state. You are not right when you say that they didn't have anything in common, they were they main ethnic components of the Golden Horde, later Kazan Khanate, Crimean Khanate, Astrakhan Khanate and Siberian Khanate bacame subdivisions of the Golden Horde.
Besides the languages of Kazan, Astrakhan and Siberian Tatars belong to one Kypchak-Bolgar subgroup of the Kypchak languages.
As for Kazakhs, the closest linguistic relatives for them in Kypchak group are not Bashkirs and Tatars, but Nogay (Nogay live in Northern Caucasus in Russia now) and Karakalpak (Karakalpak live in Uzbekistan).
Check this out
Kazakhs, were distinct from Tatars both Culturally and anthropologically (Kazakhs generally have more Mongoloid phenotype than Tatars).
Bashkir (although their language also belongs to Kypchak-Bolgar group) politically were also different from Tatars, that's why they were distinguished by the Russian chronicles.
Kazakhs due to their linguistic and cultural difference from Tatars were never called Tatars by Russian chronicles, they were called Kazakh horde in the beginning, and later Kyrgys-Kaisak, due to the mistake of some Swedish geographies who thought that Kazakhs and Kyrgys are the same.
After the Soviets came to power in 1917 Kazakhs again regain their historical name Kazakh.
Historically, later when Russian discovered some other Turkic ehtinicities like Azeri, they were also called Tatar (Caucasus' Tatar) this time because of the language similarity, this was a definite mistake and later Azeri also regain their true name.
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 16:56 |
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Where did u take that modern Russians "label" any one? Nobody makes new names for Turkic groups now!
Can u give any example of a "new name" invented by Russians? Before doing you remarks, firstly do some basic studies.
There were some historical mistakes. Like Bolgars were called Kazan Tatars or Kazakhs were called Kyrgys-Kaisak. But they were made by old geographers, by confusion.
Now nobody prohibits Turkic ethinicities to call themselves as they want.
It is a well known fact that Russian scientist's contirbution to Turkic studies is enormous !
There are monuments in Kazan and Kazakhstan to the Russian historian Lev Gumilev who is a founder of the Euroasianism and taught the relations between Russians and Turks alway have been more positive than negative.
You should understand that Tatars and other Turks are the integral part of the modern Russia. Their history and culture are also the integral part of the Russian history and culture.
And generally speaking, Tatars are respected by Russians. A good example from the modern culture is a Tatar - POP singer, Alsou, who is very popular in Russia.
Here is her song in Tatar:
You will see there some scenes from a Tatar villaige, where houses look almost identical to Russian and you'll see that Tatar people outlook is also almost the same with Russian.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 17:33 |
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Bulldog
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Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 17:06 |
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Sarmat, Nogay are Tatars and the language is the same.
Sarmat
Historically, later when Russian discovered some other Turkic ehtinicities like Azeri, they were also called Tatar (Caucasus' Tatar) this time because of the language similarity, this was a definite mistake and later Azeri also regain their true name.
Azeri is not a "true" name, Azeri is not an ethnic group and Azari was a totally different language.
They are Turks, or Azeri Turks as in Turks of the geographical region Azerbaycan. |
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 17:22 |
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Although you are an ardent protogonist of Turkiness you even don't know that there is a small Turkic nation called Nogay or Nogais, who speak Nogay language, which is more close to Kazakh language than to Tatar (Nogay formed a part of the Kishi Zhuz (small horde) of Kazakhs).
Next time, before arguing with me do at least some basic research.
Concerning Azeri their OFFICIAL name is Azeri, but not Turks. There is an Azerbajan republic not Turk republic. The names Turk and Azeri can coexist, but Turks is not an exclusive name for them.
Don't change their name by yourself.
Adress this question to Azeri themselves, and untill they change their official name to Turks, I can't agee with you.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 17:30 |
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 17:27 |
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The Azerbaijanis[13][14] are an ethnic group mainly in the Republic of Azerbaijan and northwestern Iran. Commonly referred to as Azeris (Azeri: آذریلر Azәrilәr) or Āzarīs (Persian: آذری ), they also live in a wider area from the Caucasus to the Iranian plateau. The Azeris are typically Muslim and have a mixed cultural heritage of Turkic, Iranian, and Caucasian elements.
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Bulldog
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Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 17:54 |
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Sarmat
Although you are ardent protogonist of Turkiness you even don't know that there is a small Turkic nation called Nogay or Nogais, who speak Nogay language
Do you know any Nogays?
I know many Nogay Turks, Nogay are not a "nation", Nogay are a group and made up of a tribal confederation of Ak Nogay/Kara Nogay and less tribes like Yediskul, Hemboyluk and so on. Its almost impossible to make a clear distinction between Tatar/Nogay. Its estimated 100,000 Nogay Turks and 5-6 million Tatar live in Turkey.
Nogay are Tatar, ask a Nogay, alot of Nogays told me they're Tatar and Tatar are Turk. They can talk with Tatars, they don't have a unique language unintellegible to other Tatar.
Sarmat
Next time, before arguing with me do at least some basic research.
I suggest you actually meet the people your referring to and don't rely so heavily on flimsy "Wikipedia" sources.
Sarmat
Concerning Azeri their OFFICIAL name is Azeri, but not Turks. There is an Azerbajan republic not Turk republic. The names Turk and Azeri can coexist, but Turks is not an exclusive name for them.
Azerbaycan is the name of a country, like Turkiye is the name of a country.
They have just as much right to call themselves "Turks" as anyone in Turkiye or any other Turkic region.
Sarmat
Adress this question to Azeri themselves, and untill they change their official name to Turks, I can't agee with you.
Don't worry, Azeri don't need you to explain who they are, ask any yourself if they're Turk or not, in Iran non-Turks call them "Torke"(Turk).
The Wikipedia source is like a "Neo-Nazi Race fest"
 Azeri Turk are 45% this 3% that 7% that 9% this, they arn't allowed to call themselves anything, they must be told what they are, they;re a conjuction of ingrediants and magically speak Turkish and are called Turks by everyone else in the region.I'll just leave you with what Haydar Aliyev's words about Turkey
"Iki dovlet bir millet"
Two countries one nation  Edited by Bulldog - 24-Jun-2007 at 18:16 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 18:30 |
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I am citing the sources for my arguments. While you saying something like "I was told..." You can't prove anything by this. By analogy I can say that I saw Turks who told me they are from Mars...
Nogay language is different from Tatar, they are 2 diffent languages
You are probably confused that sometimes it's called Nogay-Tatar. But it doesn't mean that it is the same with Crimean Tatar and Kazan Tatar. It is still a distinct language.
Nogai languageFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You see Nogay has an official language code: nog
Nogai (also Nogay or Nogai Tatar), is a Turkic language spoken in southwestern Russia. Three distinct dialects are recognized: Qara-Nogay (Black or Northern Nogay), spoken in Dagestan; Nogai Proper, in Stavropol; and Aqnogay (White or Western Nogay), by the Kuban River, its tributaries in Karachay-Cherkessia, and in the Mineralnye Vody District. Qara-Nogay and Nogai Proper are very close linguistically, while Aqnogay shows more differences. Nogai is generally classified into the Kypchak-Nogay branch of Kypchak Turkic. This family also includes Crimean Tatar, Karakalpak in Uzbekistan, Kazakh in Kazakhstan, and Kirgiz in Kyrgyzstan. Now Crimean Tatar language (I think you referred to Crimean Tatar, cause they are closest to Nogay, but not Kazan Tatars). So Crimean Tatar language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatar_languageatar language The Crimean Tatar Language
(Qırımtatar tili, Qırımtatarca), also known as Crimean (Qırım tili, Qırımca) and Crimean Turkish (Qırım Trkesi) is the language of the Crimean Tatars. It is spoken in Crimea, Central Asia (mainly in Uzbekistan), and the Crimean Tatar diasporas in Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria. It is not to be confused with the Qazan Tatar language.
Official language codes:
Will you continue do deny, that Nogay language exists?
Please give me at least any citations which says modern NOGAY=TATAR 100%
Can you do it?
No u can't
The same is with Azeri. Give me the source which says: "We Azeri call ourselves only Turks, we don't call ourselves Azeri and Azerbaijan is just the name of our country without any connection to our real name"
Give me any book, citation or something.
Until u do it, I can't agree with you. Since I have made so many reference and you made none. Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 18:32 |
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calvo
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Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 13:16 |
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A few years back a friend of mine, who is Kazan Tartar, told me that many "Siberian Tartar" groups are heavily Russianized nowadays and are in danger of losing their identity. Unlike the Kazan and Crimean Tartars, they are politically much weaker with a lower national consciousness.
My friend said that most of their younger generation prefer to marry Russians and the children born out of these mixed unions tend to be raised as Russians.
What are the most dominant Siberian Tartar populations? What are their conditions now? Is it true that they are being absorbed into the "Russian ethnicity"?
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 15:11 |
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This judment seems to be true. As from my experience, I also notice that Siberian Tatars had less ethnic consciousness than for example Kazan Tatars.
As I know, their intermarriages with Russian are indeed more common than between the other Turkic ethnicities.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:06 |
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Nogay has not recieved much studies.
Nogay's I know don't have trouble understanding and communicating with Tatars, its so overlapped its difficult to distinguish fundamental differences.
Nogay cannot be a different language if they understand other Tatars.
Sorry but Wikipedia is not a credible or reliable source especially regarding controversial issues.
Alot of Nogay were influenced by Astrakan Tatars, there are only 60-70,000 Nogay in the Caucauses, most were killed and forced to be refugees.
The problem is today, most Nogays don't live in the Nogay region especially following the Stalinist era they are dispersed in many countries.
There are Nogay in Daghistan, Chechneya, Karachay, Lithuania, Romania, Turkey.
Due to Nogay being Kipchak Turks and living in Tatar regions its likely that there are now even more similarities between the two.
Its a complex identity.
Crimean Tatars and Noghais in TurkeyHenryk Jankowski* Tatars and Noghais share many traits and it is impossible to make a clear distinction between these groups.
Read this study.
Azeri are Turk, ofcourse Azerbaijan is the name of the country and "Azari" is not connected, Azari was a totally different Iranic language it has absolutely nothing to do with Torki/Azeri Turkish.
Put it this way if Azerbaycan and Turkey formed a union, there would be no language or identity problems.
Just do a quick search, some of the most ardent supporters and even founders of the re-emergent of the idea of forming more unity among the Turkic world was by Azeri Turks (Infact the idea of pushing unity among Turks was initially done by Turks who fell under the Russian domain and only later were adopted in the Ottoman lands and by the Turkish movements which grew in their final years). Mirza Ahunzade, Huseyinzade Ali Bey, Ahmed bey Agayeff who became known as Ahmed Agaogullu in Turkiye and became highly influencial. The Musavat party, today Gamoh in Iran and so on.
Edited by Bulldog - 25-Jun-2007 at 18:07 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Bulldog
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:18 |
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Generally from what I've read and people I spoke with it seems to be the case but ofcourse situations can differ depending on the individual.
The Kazak Tatar/Tatarstan Tatars were very resillient and sucessfull in keeping a strong identity, religion and language alive. Infact, Russia acknowledge this and gave them a special status federal region within Russia and its quite a sucessfull economic region.
Regarding Crimean Tatars, due to their historic suffering there is a strong identity and nationalism, however, its not a part of Russia today and Ukraine has develped good relations with Turkey where an estimated 5-6 million Tatar descendants reside.
Edited by Bulldog - 25-Jun-2007 at 18:21 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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ProMongol
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:49 |
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Noghays are very interesting people group to study. It is very surprising to know that their aristocrats were Mongoloid people from Mangud (Mangyt) clan. Is it exactly same clan of Mongols which mentioned in SHM ( Secret History of Mongols) as Urud Mangud "wardogs of Chinggis Khan) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Also just like these ethnic definition of Tatars, Russians ( precisely Soviets) created confusing identity for Mongolic people of Buryats and Kalmyks and also culturally Mongolic people of Tuva and Altai people. Until beginning of XX century, everything seems to be OK as a different ethnic group under Russian Imperator. Assimilation was there but speed was slow as natural evolution -Kalmyks ( part of Zhungar State of Oirat Mongols- Black Oirats) were using its Todo bichig which is just like Old Mongolian script. Kalmyks speaking in their language of western Mongolian branch of Mongolian language group until 1924. - Buryats are also the same. Until 1935, Buryats had Buryat-Mongol Autonomious SSR. They used to speak in similar dialect of Northern Mongols of Mongolia. - Tuvans were eastern Turkic people, culturally like Mongolian, religious wise Tibetan Buddhists. Southern Tuvans had own name original name Uriankhai ( Subedei Bagatur is urianhai) and used to speak in Darhad Mongolian dialects write in vertical Mongolian script until they join USSR in 1940. - Altai people who are from Gorno-Altaiski Krai were also had its own Oiratskie Autonomious State. They were called White Oirats, politically vassal of Black Oirats who are Mongolic speaking). They were Eastern turkic speaking people who are Tibetan Buddhist and Burkhanist ( something shamanist of Tengri). They had their own writing system usug bichik. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Now these above mentioned have very little of what they used to be. Kalmyks and Buryats deny their Mongol roots. White Oirats renamed as Altai people, heavily Russified. Tuvans are much better condition actually, Turkic language quite intact, Mongolian culture is still alive. |
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Sarmat
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:03 |
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If u don't trust Wikipedia, please just check any other classification of the Turkic langages. U can also do it on Turkish websites.
Usually, classification of Kypchak branch of Turkic languages, has a Nogay-Kypchak subdivision with three languages there: Nogay. Crimean Tatar and Kazakh.
Do Turkish sources give a different classification? Do they distinguish Nogay or not?
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AyKurt
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:18 |
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All the Kypchak dialects are very close. Out of all the dialects Crimean is closest to Nogay and in fact virtually identical.
Some characteristics of the Nogay dialect where it differs to Kazakh are;
the preservation of the initial y, whereas in Kazakh y>j.
In Crimean Tatar many words have preserved the initial y also.
the preservation of a narrow vowel in the middle syllable, in both Crimean and Nogay,
A lack of labial harmony in the northern dialect of Crimean Tatar is shared with the nogay dialect. i.e S Dialect - Tuzluh, C dialect - tuzluk, N dialect - tuzlik.
In Dobruja Nogay and Tatar speak the same dialect.
Basically Nogay and Tatar may be classed as seperate languages but in reality they both speak the same language. The only real differences are minor sound shifts which are hardly noticable when listening to them speak. Mutual intelligibility between all Kypchak dialects is very high.
See Talat Tekin, Present day Turkic Peoples and their languages.
Look at Sean Connery, the guy cant pronounce his 's' and says 'sh' instead, yesh instead of yes. Just because of a minor sound shift doesnt mean Sean Connery doesnt speak English.
The northern dialect of Crimean Tatar is sometimes also called Nogay dialect.
Many Nogais call themselves Nogay Tatars.
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Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 21:08 |
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Azeri term is a new term, which is applied to the Iranian turkic speakers, this azeri term is used by russians, and Turkish Turks to call Iranian turks and the nation of Republic of azerbaijan. Iranian Turkic speakers leave in the area, which is called azerbaijan, it is the name of the place not the the nation.
Iranian Turks use the azeri term when they want to show that they are not anatolian.
about 1930 the government of Azerbaijan republic change the name of their country as azerbaijan to keep their link to Azerbaijan , which is located in Iran, the old name of that area is Aran or Alban.
The process of Turkification should be same for both Azerbaijans, anyhow there are significatnt accent diffrences between two people.
Azeri is not a correct scientific term to call Turks who live in Iran and has more political weight to disconnect them from their historical root, the seljuks,the Turkic empire who was known for being bilingual(Persian+Turkmen oghuz) .
Iranian Turks are diffrent from Anatolian but also between all Turkic groups are the closest one to them.
Their languge has been mixed with persian lown word specially in last 40 years, but still they can understand the Turkik language used in the letters from Seljuk Beyliks and Turkmen Times, which is writen with arabic letters.
Ignorance is covering the name of a nation in the layers of lies made buy the western historians, when the westerners saw the new Iran they found Turkick speaker Iranian in the Historical Persia and as ussual they Tried to make something to carry on with thier old belives.
Edited by qaraniq - 25-Jun-2007 at 21:14 |
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BAWIR$AQ
Janissary 
Joined: 26-Dec-2006 Location: Kazakhstan Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 19:20 |
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Crimean Tatar is quite different from both Kazak and Noghay. According to the classification of N.A. Baskakov, Kipchak-Noghay subgroup consists of: 1. Noghay 2. Karakalpak 3. Kazak Source: http://www.kyrgyz.ru/?page=31 In English: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ru_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kyrgyz.ru%2F%3Fpage%3D31 |
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"Malım janımnı sadağası, Janım arımnı sadağası" "Sacrifice your riches for your life, Sacrifice your life for your honor" |
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BAWIR$AQ
Janissary
Joined: 26-Dec-2006 Location: Kazakhstan Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 19:31 |
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Actually the 'Crimean Tatar language' consists of different dialects which range from Kipchak to Oghuz group.
There are 3 sub-ethnic groups among Crimean Tatars: Yaliboylus living on the southern coast of the peninsula speak the Oghuz dialect close to modern Turkish. Noghays living in the steppe region speak the Kipchak dialect. Tats living in the highlands and mountains speak the intermediate dialect close to both Yaliboylu and Noghay dialects, having the features of both Kipchak and Oghuz groups. Literature language of Crimean Tatars is based on the Tat dialect, although heavily Oghuzized. |
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"Malım janımnı sadağası, Janım arımnı sadağası" "Sacrifice your riches for your life, Sacrifice your life for your honor" |
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 19:51 |
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Is "Crimean Tatar" language's Nogay diealect totally identical to the language of Nogays who live in Northern Caucasus?
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Σαυρομάτης
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