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ethnic heritage of Ukranians
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Posts: 846 		  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ethnic heritage of Ukranians
    Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 16:46
All throughout history numerous Asiatic migrations had ended in the Ukraine, where Central Asian steppe people established empire after empire. Although geographically part of Europe, Ukraine had historically been part of Central Asia ethnically.
 
Today it seems that most Ukranians are overwhelmingly Slavic with little Turkic, Iranian, or Mongol influences in their culture, language, or identity.
 
What had happened? Are most Ukranians today descendants of recent Slav migrations from further north? Or do they simply play down their Asian heritage?
Were the Crimean Tartars the last Asian people to live in the Ukraine?
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 17:39
I would say Slavs are in Ukraine since Great Migration time. All Empires after Empires contained Slavonic element.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 18:33
Originally posted by calvo

All throughout history numerous Asiatic migrations had ended in the Ukraine, where Central Asian steppe people established empire after empire. Although geographically part of Europe, Ukraine had historically been part of Central Asia ethnically.
 
Today it seems that most Ukranians are overwhelmingly Slavic with little Turkic, Iranian, or Mongol influences in their culture, language, or identity.
 
What had happened? Are most Ukranians today descendants of recent Slav migrations from further north? Or do they simply play down their Asian heritage?
Were the Crimean Tartars the last Asian people to live in the Ukraine?
 
It is true, but only for the Southern Ukraine which was the Steppe region. Most of the Ukrainian territory, however, was always inhabitted by the sedentary farmers, to whom Slaves also belong.
 
Ukrainians are indeed overwhelmingly Slavic. Of course, there is also Iranian and Turkic blood in them but it was not crucial for the determination of their ethinicity.
 
Crimean Tatars still live in Crimea. Some of them keep returning from Central Asia where they were forcibly moved by Stalin in the 40th.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 20-Jun-2007 at 18:33
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:16
sarmat IIRC an Ukranian bilionair was a tatar from ethnic isnt it?

i even saw his picture, he did look like an average ukranian (blond etc)
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:34
Originally posted by DayI

sarmat IIRC an Ukranian bilionair was a tatar from ethnic isnt it?

i even saw his picture, he did look like an average ukranian (blond etc)
 
Unfortunately, I didn't hear about this person. But, generally speaking, Crimean Tatars belong to Caucasian race. They were actually divided into 3 groups: stepps, mountain and citiy Tatars. City Crimean Tatars is a very mixed group. Since there were Greeks and later Italians and even Goths (they actually survived there until the 18th century) living in Crimea, Crimean Tatars mixed with them. So it is nothing unusual to meet, for example, a blond Crimean Tatar with blue eyes, his ancestors simply were Germanic Goths.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:44
One the thing has happened is that the farming population increases faster than nomads, so slavic farmers won the game by better food providing methodes. I has happened in Iran too the middle eastern people increases faster than iranic nomads and now the country is almost middle eastern ethnically.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 20:40
Is there a plan to re-settle Crimean Tatars to Crimea?
 
Its estimated that there are 5 million people of Crimean Tatar descent, with the Nogay, Astrakan and Kazan Tatars some estimates are 6-8 million although it could be exaggerated.
 
I read there are around 40 Crimean Tatar villages alone in Eskisehir area.
 
Most Tatar's I know have some more Asiatic features, especially in the eyes?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 23:53
Originally posted by Bulldog

Is there a plan to re-settle Crimean Tatars to Crimea?
 
Its estimated that there are 5 million people of Crimean Tatar descent, with the Nogay, Astrakan and Kazan Tatars some estimates are 6-8 million although it could be exaggerated.
 
I read there are around 40 Crimean Tatar villages alone in Eskisehir area.
 
Most Tatar's I know have some more Asiatic features, especially in the eyes?
 
There should be a plan to re-settle them, or some government incentives on propery aquirement for ones wanting to re-settle in their ancestral homelands sounds plausible and reasonable.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 23:58
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Bulldog

Is there a plan to re-settle Crimean Tatars to Crimea?
 
Its estimated that there are 5 million people of Crimean Tatar descent, with the Nogay, Astrakan and Kazan Tatars some estimates are 6-8 million although it could be exaggerated.
 
I read there are around 40 Crimean Tatar villages alone in Eskisehir area.
 
Most Tatar's I know have some more Asiatic features, especially in the eyes?
 
There should be a plan to re-settle them, or some government incentives on propery aquirement for ones wanting to re-settle in their ancestral homelands sounds plausible and reasonable.
 
This plan was actually implemented in the late 80th when SU was still in existence. Since then most ot the Crimean Tatars moved back to their homeland.
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Posts: 846 		  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 13:41
Someone told me that in southern Ukraine, the communities descended from the Zharporozian Cossacks tend to be darker-featured than Ukrainians to the north and that many of them look Turkish. I also heard that their traditional dress is very influenced by Crimean Tartar and Turkish. Would a significant part of their heritage come from the Crimean Tartars and Turks?
 
What I also heard was that the "Don Cossack" hosts have rather prominent Nogai Tartar and Kalmuck heritage. Are there still any Don Cossack communities remaining today to prove it?
 
After all, the Cossack military organization was a copy of the Mongol system: of 10, 100, 1000 men units with the leader of each elected by the men.
Most of them would have been Slavs and orthodox christians, but Tartars and steppe people must have made up a rather significant percentage.
 
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 18:26

Turko-Ukrainian Relations and the Crimean Tatars*

 
This is a good source for more in-depth knowledge of Crimean Tatar-Turks.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 19:52
Originally posted by calvo

Someone told me that in southern Ukraine, the communities descended from the Zharporozian Cossacks tend to be darker-featured than Ukrainians to the north and that many of them look Turkish. I also heard that their traditional dress is very influenced by Crimean Tartar and Turkish. Would a significant part of their heritage come from the Crimean Tartars and Turks?
 
What I also heard was that the "Don Cossack" hosts have rather prominent Nogai Tartar and Kalmuck heritage. Are there still any Don Cossack communities remaining today to prove it?
 
After all, the Cossack military organization was a copy of the Mongol system: of 10, 100, 1000 men units with the leader of each elected by the men.
Most of them would have been Slavs and orthodox christians, but Tartars and steppe people must have made up a rather significant percentage.
 
 
 
This is true. In fact the origins of Cossack movement are Turkic. The word Coccack means "free man" in Turkic.
 
First, Cossacks were in fact, Tatars, Russians joined them later, untill Slavic ethnic component became dominant.
 
 Both Russian and Ukrainian cossacks were very influenced by Tatars. Including, closing, ways of conducting the war and military organization.
 
However, ethinically modern Cossacks are Slavic and  besides they are Orthodox Christians.
 
There are no descendants of Zaporozh Cossacks in Ukraine now. They were resettled to Caucasus by the Russian empress Catherine the Great in XVIII century.
 
Now they live in Russia and are called Kuban Cossacks.
 
Their outlook is in fact not very different from the phenotype of most of the Russian people.
 
There was no Kalmyk influence per se on Cossacks, in fact it was vice versa, some Kalmyks joined Cossacks and became Christians.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 19:57
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 19:53
Originally posted by Bulldog

Turko-Ukrainian Relations and the Crimean Tatars*

 
This is a good source for more in-depth knowledge of Crimean Tatar-Turks.
 
 
This article is filled with anti-Russian sentiments rather than with good information.
 
A very good article about Crimean Tatars is in fact on AE website.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 24-Jun-2007 at 19:56
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:08

It doesn't have strong anti-Russian sentiments, it isn't really about Russia.

The Kirimli's are descendants of prominant Crimean Tatar family who were exciled in the 1860's by Russians, Dr. Ahmet Ihsan Kirimli is the head of one of the largest Crimean organisations in diaspora.

That site is International Committee for Crimea, its based in Washington, so maybe your right in that there are some anti-Russian tones but generally there are some good documents.
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Posts: 236 		  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:33
The Crimeans have to be congratulated on their approach to repatriation to their native lands.  They are doing it peacefully, setting up organisations, working with the UN, establishing the Meclis etc.  They have not resorted to violence despite the hostility they face from Russian settlers in Crimea, particularly from Cossacks and Skinheads.
Its unforutate they dont recieve as much help internationaly and locally as they deserve.  Sometimes you wonder if they had resorted to using terrorist tactics that maybe there might be more attention to their plight.  :(  Such is the case with Palestinians, IRA etc.
 
Fortunately that isnt the case and i hope they find peace and justice in their ancestral homelands.
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 22:37
Its bizzare, why should these Crimeans be given their own ethnic homeland in this day an age, arent we about Multiculturalism...They sound like a racist xenophobic group to me..Maybe they should accept Cossack culture instead of being so biggoted.
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 11:35
I could write here other international, finished exemples, but I don't want to be banned.
 
It seems to me that you or people from your family weren't yet chased away from their home in the last 80-60 years...
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 14:26
Originally posted by think

Its bizzare, why should these Crimeans be given their own ethnic homeland in this day an age, arent we about Multiculturalism...They sound like a racist xenophobic group to me..Maybe they should accept Cossack culture instead of being so biggoted.



 
Good observation Tar Szerend. Think, ponder on this. The previous post talks about peaceful Crimean solutions and you label them as biggots. Look in the mirror cause the xenophobe is you. Take this as your unofficial warning. Maybe it will help you think twice next time.
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