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The Great Migrations

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Komnenos View Drop Down
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Great Migrations
    Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 11:11
The third till seventh centuries witnessed what is called in German die Voelkerwanderung, the great migrations of predominantly, but not exclusively, Germanic tribes from their Northern European homelands down into almost every part of Europe. The Visigoths ended up in Spain, the Ostrogoths in Northern Italy and the Vandals even made it to Northern Africa. Most of their kingdoms were relatively short lived, and the tribes disappeared from history without a trace. Or have they?
The Angels and Saxons have obviously left their mark on the British Isles, but what about the others?
What tracks did those Germanic tribes leave in the countries they once ruled or passed through, either more permanent ones as artifacts or buildings, or not so obvious ones, in language and culture?
Or are there even still a few Visigoths left in some remote village in Galicia?
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 11:34
Don't take my post for an absolute truth but here are my two cents.


The Franks settled in the Benelux, northwestern Germany and northern France. After this they didn't migrated but rather expanded their kingdoms. The kingdom of Franks survived qui a long time.

The Visigoths settled in southern France, not Spain. They conquered Spain later. And they were defeated by the Franks in southern France. Yet, the Franks didn't colonised the area but rather used the people who were there (visigoths and aquitanians). The Visigoths were diluted in the population of southern France and Spain rather than forming a separate group. They took great care of preserving the roman civilization instead of bringing their gothic one in (unlike the Ostrogoths).

Let's not forget the Burgundians who settled in central eastern France, western Switzerland and northwest Italy.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 11:59
Originally posted by Exarchus

Don't take my post for an absolute truth but here are my two cents.



The Visigoths settled in southern France, not Spain. They conquered
Spain later. And they were defeated by the Franks in southern France.
Yet, the Franks didn't colonised the area but rather used the people
who were there (visigoths and aquitanians). The Visigoths were diluted
in the population of southern France and Spain rather than forming a
separate group. They took great care of preserving the roman
civilization instead of bringing their gothic one in (unlike the
Ostrogoths).




Sure, there were many other tribes involved in this migration. I just gave three examples to demonstrate how far the Germanic tribes actually got.

However, the Visigoths "ended" up in Spain. After the French part of their Kingdom was conquered by the Franks in 507, the Visigoth Kingdom in Spain lastet until 711, when it was overtaken by the Umayyads.
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 12:15
Originally posted by Komnenos


Sure, there were many other tribes involved in this migration. I just gave three examples to demonstrate how far the Germanic tribes actually got.

However, the Visigoths "ended" up in Spain. After the French part of their Kingdom was conquered by the Franks in 507, the Visigoth Kingdom in Spain lastet until 711, when it was overtaken by the Umayyads.


Yeah, the Visigothic kingdom died after the battle of Vouill in Southern France. But as I said, the Franks when they conquered an area, and unlike other barbarians, they didn't colonise them. Rather used the people there to control the area. For example, after the death of Charlemagne, Louis the Pious used a Septimian visigoth. Benedict d'Aniane, to reform the church and it was centuries after the battle of vouill.
 

Edited by Exarchus
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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 12:38

The Northern and Western Europeans (Germans, Celts, etc.) come from what was called the Kurgan civilization in the Russian Steppes around 3000BCE. These are also known as the Aryans and Scythians even Sarmatians sometimes. They were the first to domesticate the horse, and invent the chariot. They migrated south creating people in India and the Middle East. Then they moved north to the slavic lands of nowadays creating Slavs. The Celts and Germanics are direct descendents of these Kurgan people and moved into Europe. Germanics migrated to modern Northern Europe, meanwhile the Celts (Keltoi) moved to Spain and France. Until 100BCE the Keltoi moved to Ireland. Some Celtic Irish monks came into Scotland creating Celt in Scotland. Those are the migrations of modern Northern Europeans, and Western Europeans.

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

Http://www.tartanplace.com/tartanhistory/tartanhisear.html

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/JardinSilvestre/Celts.html

http://www.geocities.com/gardenofdanu/the_kurgan_waves.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_culture

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:02
Originally posted by KurganRatnik

The Northern and Western Europeans (Germans, Celts, etc.)come from what was called the Kurgan civilization in the Russian Steppes around 3000BCE. These are also known as the Aryans and Scythians even Sarmatians sometimes. They were the first to domesticate the horse, and invent the chariot. They migrated south creating people in India and the Middle East. Then they moved north to the slavic lands of nowadays creating Slavs. The Celts and Germanics are direct descendents of these Kurgan people and moved into Europe. Germanics migrated to modern Northern Europe, meanwhile the Celts (Keltoi) moved to Spain and France.Until 100BCE the Keltoi moved to Ireland. Some Celtic Irish monks came into Scotland creating Celt in Scotland. Those are the migrations of modern Northern Europeans, and Western Europeans.




The great history of the Indo-Europeans in one minute, and I wont comment on all of the inaccuracies.

Funnily enough, Im reading a book on the origins of Indo-European language, and the theory ( by Mary Gimbutas) you brought forward here, is only one of many who tried to establish the homeland of these people.

Western Europe, India, Central Asia and others have also been claimed as the cradle of Indo-Europeans, and there seems to be no conclusive and generally accepted evidence for any of these theories. Its all a highly complicated process of culture and language dissemination, rather then the simplified idea of people packing their bags and marching off into the wide world.
I could argue with P. Bosch-Gimpera that the Indo-Europeans came from Central Europe, but whats the point. We simply dont know.
However, the initial thread was about much later migrations, of which we have much better records.
Just out of interest, are there still any Kurgan people in existence?


Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:07
In the Iberian Peninsula (not Spain), the Celts mingled with the home Iberians creating the Celtiberians that were one of the most important civilization in the peninsula before the arrival of the Moors.

Edited by Infidel
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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:15
Most of Irish art is based on the Kurgan art. Kurgan means 'burial mound' in Russian. The proof is that Kurgans (Sarmatians, Scythians) invented the chariot it spread through Eurasia. The people of modern day Ukraine and Poland and Russian and some of Germany have Eu18 DNA which is also found in some places in the Middle East. Neanderthals died out a long time ago. Southern Europeans are of Cro-Magnon descent. By the way I am an expert in Eastern European history, and currently studing Indo-European origin. Kurgan people are a group another example are the Pazyryk, of the Siberian steppes.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:27
Originally posted by KurganRatnik

Most of Irish art is based on the Kurgan art.


Well, I have a closer look at the wall paintings, next time I go for a pint to O'Casey's Pub .
(Sorry, I tried, but I couldn't resist that.)

Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:40

It is ok, I have helped excavate the Sarmatian/Scythian (Kurgan) burial sites in Eastern Europe and Kazakhstan and all over Russia. I also found the Keltoi`s (Celts) art was extremely similar aswell.

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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:42

Yet again the Kurgan is a very promising proven theory. This might help,

http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/worldlit/jpegs/migr ate.jpg

http://www.geography.uc.edu/~weisner/courses/216/webmap1/kurgan.gif

 

 



Edited by KurganRatnik
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:49

I think the point of Exarchus post was to say that southern France is ethnically not composed of Franks, it only was politicaly Frank. and I completely agree with that.

as Komnenos already said, most people migrating were Germanic people, but Alans of Sarmatian origin also had quite some record, together with the Vandals they reached the Iberian peninsula where after what i've read once, the Vandal king did betray them and slaughtered them all, but still carried on teh title Rex Vandalorum et Alani or somethign like that. Romans have also settled Alans in parts of France as Foederati, for example Armorica (Bretagne) whose horsemen were said to have had armorued horses and fought with javelisn from horseback. as well as the Alans setteld at Chalons were they fought udner Sangiban at the battle of teh Catalaunian fields agaisnt the Husn with whom they wanted to side, but Aetius arrived first on the scene and forced them to fight for him. there are also some traces of Sarmatians in britain, like the Artus tale and warfare (Draco standards etc)

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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:55

The Kurgan also may have been the ancestors of the Hittetes. Since the Migrated south as Kurgans later known as Indo-Iranians.

http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/worldlit/jpegs/migr ate.jpg

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 14:19

There are many blue-eyed and fairskinned poeple in Tunisia and in neighboring countries. Are they perhaps descendants of the Vandals?

To me the age of migrations is one of the most interesting chapters in history, we're currently studying that period in my history class. I also recently read a book about the battle of Adrianople 378, which spurred my interest.

I like the names of the first frankish kings - Chilperik, Childerik, Dagobert, Pippin - they're quite funny

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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 14:27
Blond hair, blue eyes in Tunisia probably from Northern Europe. The reason why blond hair and blue eyes exists is because of the adaption to the climate of the Germanics etc. From the Kurgan people.
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 15:28
I love the design of the Kurgan in Highlander though.


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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 15:47

I have never heard of that show before HAHA.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 06:38
Originally posted by KurganRatnik

Blond hair, blue eyes in Tunisia probably from Northern Europe.The reasonwhy blond hair and blue eyes exists is because of the adaption to the climate of the Germanics etc. From the Kurgan people.


Why don't we Kurgan it out in some other thread, this was about the migrations of the first millenium AD.

Back to the original question, any traces of Germanic tribes passing through your country in the "Dark Ages"?

Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote KurganRatnik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 09:15

My country? Yes the Kurgans did come through a root through modern Slavic lands. Creating the Germanics when they settled in Northern Europe. Hope that answers it. The only people in my land were the Sarmatians which died off as well as the Scythians. Then again Poland, and Ukrainians through the middle ages were greatly influenced by Germany, especially Poland.

http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/worldlit/jpegs/migr %20ate.jpg



Edited by KurganRatnik
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  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 11:34

KurganRatnik I daresay that the theory you present is un-scientific, out-dated and false. The crucial mistake you have made is:

YOU CAN NOT MAKE LINGUISTICAL CONCLUSIONS BASED ON ARCHAELOGY! You are saying, that the Kurgans came to Europe, and created the languages of modern Europe, and you're even backing it up with the Gimbutas theory! Gimbutas made her conclusion concerning a culture, not a language. There is a difference. It may be, that the Kurgans spoke proto-Indo-European, but atleast use the correct terms! Please don't mix linguistical results with archaelogical in the future. Besides, the "Kurgans" didn't invent the wheel, the Sumerians did. That is how the proto-Indo-European language is traced to north Caucasia, studying the language's loanwords based on chariots and wheels.

On the topic: Did the Franks, Visigoths, Lombards and Burgundians speak Germanic languages still in the 7th century? Or was it a mixture of Latin and their own languages? Or just Latin?

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