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Topic ClosedTurkic Origins in North Pakistan

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkic Origins in North Pakistan
    Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:24
Stating that your knowledge about Turkish people is extremely poor doesn't mean "Spamming", dear "Bulldog".


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 12:44
Personally I never really liked Spam. Too many nitrates, ham, pork, sugar and looks like rations.
 
I see that you guys have been eating it over the last four posts though!Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 15:44
Cunyet,  Do you happen to be from the Northern Areas of Pakistan or from NWFP?

If you are from the Northern Areas ancestraly then you would be classified as Dardic and the Northern Areas historically have not been a part of India but rather a part of Kashmir.

Urdu although has a lot of 'borrowed' words from turkish/farsi/arabic it still however is an indic language and its origins are not in Pakistan but in the central India. If you are from the Northern Areas of Pakistan you should speak a dardic language and not an indic language.

I myself am an ethnic kashmiri from the vale of kashmir and also classified as dardic. I recently got a DNA ancestry test done and my results put me in the haplogroup J2a1b which is only found in the levnat,mesopotamia and Anatolia areas.

Although I have never heard of any ancestral origins from these areas from my family, my DNA results must show some common ancestry of the Northern Parts of the subcontinent.

I have only heard of stories of central asian origins from family.

I'm trying to find out the origins of the people of the northern parts of the subcontinent as we clearly look different to the rest of the subcontinent, speak non-indic languages (I speak a dardic language, although I can speak urdu too) and have different culture.

Although it is certain that dardic people are not Indic, finding the origins is proving tough (for me).


Edited by Koshur - 27-Jun-2007 at 15:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 06:50
Originally posted by Cuneyt

 
Finally something more lighthearted, a Pakistani boy singing a Turkish song:
 
 
Also another one:
 
 
Clap
 
 
 


This kid is Pashtun [ethnic Afghan], i had no idea he could be so talented, he's been on Afghan channel many times, and yeah it's new to me that he can speak Turkish too. Btw, any of you know what this show was of? Like was it Turkish idol kind of thing or something else?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2007 at 19:01
hey.. im not turkish.. but I know that regardless of the fact that I dont have turkish blood or cant speak turkish, I feel Turkish people are our brothers/sisters regardless!  Pakistan and Turkey have great relations that go beyond mere words.. its palpable.  I remember once I went to the US for a few weeks, and I was sitting in my hotel loby, and this couple & their 4 kids (i had no idea where they were from) came over and asked me where I was from... I was like Pakistan... and they were ecstatic and replied 'were from TUrkey!!!''' next thing I know.. we were all hugging , and kissing on the cheaks! and we went out to dinner!  It was a great feeling of mutual respect... cant really explain it!   I had a similar story when i went to China also.  Its funny how things work..  I wonder what those Pakistani's, who have turk blood(northern areas/hazaras/chugtai etc..) in them feel when they meet some1 from turkey... they must be dancing on the ceiling lol!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 22:27

Hi my name is cneyt too.by the way junaid i am really happy to see my ''adaş'' (sharing the same name)

from pakistan.i am really touched what you told and what we share.
 
junaid said:I just wonder what all your thoughts are.  I feel that all turkish/turkic people are like, if not brothers, then my cousins.  I wish I could say BROTHERS as I feel the Turkish blood in my viens, but I fear Many Turks will not except me as so.
 
i felt really sorry when i read these lines.according to your sincerely lines you don't need any
 
approval to shout that you are turkish.
 
turkish nation is a world wide nation that conquered  from pasific to deep europe vienna  from
 
yakutsk to india or morocco.
 
and also i can tell that our BROTHERSHIP is not religional.a turk is a turk doesn't matter
 
what religion belongs to.last month i watched a documentary that is about uiygurs in chinese border.
 
i felt such different when i watched it and saw we are speaking the same language after may be 10 centuries
 
ı was understanding it may be because of i am from erzurum its accent is similar to azeri lehche  
 
ı understood kilometers doesn't matter brother is brother.
 
like ATATRK said:
 
i couldn't find the direct translation i am sorry but i think i did it well Smile
 
 
             ''it is such a big happiness to say i am turkish''
 
 
 
this is the link that showsthe meaning of Turkey's cumhurbaskanlığı fors (presidents  symboL)
 
16 states of the turks.It is nice to know where we belong
 
 
by the way our name means ''little soldier'' in turkish.may be you know it but i wanted to say
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 02:08
It sure is, and no matetr who is trying to things against us, we will always be TURKS and keep our identity as a descendants of Greatest Hans and Beys.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 10:17
Firstly, i want to say i didnt write in this forum for a long time. But when i saw this beatiful post of my brother Junaid, i couldnt stop myself from writing. I didnt read all posts, i will read all of them later.
Junaid, I accept you as a Trk, and all Trks will accept you as a Trk.

Coming to the 2 haters in the topic, as far as i read the messages, Sarmat12 and Qaraniq. It is time for you to read books of people who made the research with all the true facts about Oğuz Trks, who are the ancestors of modern Trks in the area of Trkiye, Azerbaycan, Trkmenistan. I actually live in Holland, at the moment i am in Trkiye, and i bought many research books(the most popular and trustable) about The Origin of Turks. As a conclusion(which you actually all seem to know but keep having hatefully thoughts about Trkiye Trks), The grandfathers of Trkiye Trks are Oğuz Trks(a Trk Tribe). Oğuz Trks came from Central Asia, the people you seem to try to break appart from the Trks in Trkiye. Trkiye Trks and Trks in Central Asia have same blood and arent different. I advice you people to stop with trying to break us appart with terrorising terms like Turk and Turkic, we dont use those terms, we only use Trk.

Junaid, i want you to read 2 quotes of our FATHER, HEROE and EVERYTHING OF US, MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATRK:

1.

Ey Trk genliği!
Birinci vazifen, Trk istiklalini, Trk Cumhuriyetini, ilelebet, muhafaza ve mdafaa etmektir.

Mevcudiyetinin ve istikbalinin yegane temeli budur. Bu temel, senin, en kıymetli hazinendir. İstikbalde dahi, seni, bu hazineden mahrum etmek isteyecek, dahili ve harici, bedhahların olacaktır. Bir gn, istiklal ve cumhuriyeti mdafaa mecburiyetine dşersen, vazifeye atılmak iin, iinde bulunacağın vaziyetin imkan ve şeraitini dşnmeyeceksin! Bu imkan ve şerait, ok namsait bir mahiyette tezahr edebilir. İstiklal ve cumhuriyetine kastedecek dşmanlar, btn dnyada emsali grlmemiş bir galibiyetin mmessili olabilirler. Cebren ve hile ile aziz vatanın btn kaleleri zaptedilmiş, btn tersanelerine girilmiş, btn orduları dağıtılmış ve memleketin her kşesi bilfiil işgal edilmiş olabilir. Btn bu şeraitten daha elim ve daha vahim olmak zere, memleketin dahilinde iktidara sahip olanlar gaflet ve dalalet ve hatta hıyanet iinde bulunabilirler. Hatta bu iktidar sahipleri şahsi menfaatlerini, mstevlilerin siyasi emelleriyle tevhit edebilirler. Millet, fakr zaruret iinde harap ve bitap dşmş olabilir.

Ey Trk istikbalinin evladı!
İşte; bu ahval ve şerait iinde dahi, vazifen, Trk istiklal ve cumhuriyetini kurtarmaktır! Muhta olduğun kudret, damarlarındaki asil kanda mevcuttur.

2.

Bugn Sovyetler Birliği, dostumuzdur; komşumuzdur, mttefikimizdir. Bu dostluğa ihtiyacımız vardır. Fakat yarın ne olacağını kimse bu gnden kestiremez. Tıpkı Osmanlı gibi, tıpkı Avusturya-Macaristan gibi paralanabilir, ufalabilir. Bugn elinde sımsıkı tuttuğu milletler avularından kaabilirler. Dnya yeni bir dengeye ulaşabilir. İşte o zaman Trkiye ne yapacağını bilmelidir... Bizim bu dostumuzun idaresinde dili bir, inanci bir, z bir kardeşlerimiz vardır. Onlara sahip ıkmaya hazır olmalıyız. Hazır olmak yalnız o gn susup beklemek değildir. Hazırlanmak lazımdır. Milletler buna nasıl hazırlanır. Manevi kprleri sağlam tutarak. Dil bir kprdr... İnan bir kprdr... Tarih bir kprdr... Kklerimize inmeli ve olayların bldğ tarihimizin iinde btnleşmeliyiz. Onların (Dış Trklerin) bize yaklaşmasını beklememeliyiz. Bizim onlara yaklaşmamız gereklidir


I am gonna translate the quotes as far as i can, i could make some mistakes, apologizes for that.

1.

Trk youth,

Your first action is to defend The Trk Victory and The Trk Republic.

This is the basic of the precence and future of Trks. This basic, is your biggest treasure. Even in your freedom, there will be enemies, who would like you not to have this treasure. One day, if you will be in a position to defend The Trk Victory and The Trk Republic, you must not think about the risks you will be taking to perform your duty. This opportunity could appear in a very difficult time. These Enemies who would be chasing for your Victory and Republic, could be the represents of people who accomplished big victories. With force and cheating all places of your great country could be taken over, all Marine areas could be invaded, all Units of The Army could also be beaten. Worse than all these things, all people in the government could act like traitors. These people could use their own needs with politics. Allour people could have no motivation anymore.

The children of The Trk Victory!
Even in this situation, your duty is to safe
The Trk Victory and Republic. The power you need, you will get from your highborn blood in your veins.

 

2.

Today the Soviet union is our friend, neighbour and ally. We will need this friendship. But what will happen tomorrow no one could know. Just like Ottoman and Austria-Hungary they could break up and decrease. The nations they are holding on in their hands could go away from them. The world could have a new balance. Right at that moment, Trkiye should now what to do. We have brothers who share the same language, religion and race and who are now in control of our ally. We should be ready to support them and connect with them. Being ready doesnt only mean to wait(silencely) the day when this will happen. We should be prepared. How do nations prepare for this. They must keep the spiritual bridges safe. Language is a bridge, Religion is a bridge, History is a bridge. We should go deep in to our origins, and must gather together by knowing the history of our same origins . We must not wait for them(Trks outside Trkiye) to get close to us. We must get close to them.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 16:38

Omergun, please cool down a little.

Nobody is trying to disconnect Turkey Turks to Central Asian Turks, anybody doing so obviously has no understanding of history, as Turks migrated from Central Asia.
 
The Oghuz Turks were a tribal confederacy, they had the most influence in the Turkification of Anatolia.
 
However, regarding "blood", these arguments are pointless, there is no such thing as "pure blood" or a "national blood", in a nation there can be many different peoples that make it up.
What is important is language, identity, historical connections, socio-cultural factors etc This is what makes Turks Turks and connects them.
 
Also, this post has nothing to do with Gazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha Ataturk, I have respect for him aswell but this post isn't about him.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 21:17
Hi, Umair Ahmad here, my origin is from Kashmir on the side of Pakistan called the Northern Areas, Being an ethnic Kashmiri i speak Dardic Language, I have heard from my family that our ancestors were Turks, in our language there is some belonging and alot words from Turk language like Urdu has, i can also speak Urdu very well and i wonder why its difficult for others to believe us as  a tribe of Turk Origin. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 21:20
i visited This Forum and decided to join to share as the topic was related ti my self,
 Regards to All The Members!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 23:16
Is Salaar your family or tribal name? or is it just your nick?
 
There have been reports made by Turkish aid workers who went to Pakistan after the recent earthquake that while in the Kashmir region they were suprised to discover many villages claiming descendancy from Turks. There have been a few articles about this, according to these villages their forefathers were a branch of Turk tribes who migrated to the region, another is that during the Gazevid era they were settled in the region and others during the Timurid era. They remember that the Ottoman sultan Abdulhamit Han II established relations with them and they have respect for him.
 
 
The articles in Turkish but I can translate it for you.


Edited by Bulldog - 17-Apr-2008 at 23:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 19:51

Al Salaam Alikum,

 first of all Thanx to u  Padishah Bro!
 
 I Appriciate and i pay my Thanks to  whole Turkish Nation for that great help for Kashmiri people after that Earth Quake, it really proved the Brotherhood between our countries.
  it proved Turkey as a live nation.
     i wonder and want to know from where i belong exactly, which is a huge importance for me, currently im in Dubai, running my business.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 14:58
Originally posted by Cuneyt

Hello everyone,

I have a question for you all.  What is a Turk?  Are you only a Turk if you speak Turkic languages.  The reason I ask is because my father's family live in North Pakistan.  But my father has always said our origin is Turkic from central Asia.  Our tribe is called Qutub Shahi and are originally from one of the six sons of Qutub shah a Turkish general of Mahmud of Gaznavi.  I have noticed that the Gaznali Empire (Gazneliler) is considered one of the 16 byk Trk imparatorluğunu.
 
Not to mention that the area where my family is from has been invaded many times by Central Asian Turks. Including Timur and Babar (Again of the 16 byk Trk imparatorluğunu).  Also Again directly connected to my family is The Mamluk Sultanate of Qutbudin Aybeg and his succesors Shamsudin Iltutmish and Ghaisudin Balban  These Turkic names are still very popular in our family, (more than Arab or Persian names) as well as the name Kublay, Changez and AlpArslan.  Also our surname is Khan.  My name is Junaid which I know is popular in Turkey as Cneyt. Also I know of a great Turkomenistan leader who fought the Russians called Junaid Khan.  Also My great grandfathers grave stone is written Turkish (not Persion or Urdu).  BTW. Urdu is infact a Turkish word ORDU (army/tent).
 
North Pakistanis generally love the Turkic people, our language, food and culture contains many many Turkic elements.  Even our flag shows our love for the Turkic people with its Ay Yildiz. I am told of stories where my great grandmother and many like her sold their jewellary to send money to help the Turkish war of independence.
 
I am not saying I am Turkish now, because I guess we maybe have had admixture of Persian, Afghan and maybe even Indian over the years, but my father and I, because of our faces, are often mistaken as Turkish (by Turks!) where we live in London and when we visited Turkey.  I loved going to Istanbul for holidays because of the love the People showed me.  Honestly compared when I went to Saudi or Morrocco, they just think you are s**t if you are not arab, and they think people from Pakistan or Indian are the lowest human, even though Pakistanis are Muslim like them.  Don't get me wrong not all were like that but certainly the majority.  Whereas in turkey everyone I met was so friendly, it left a great impression in my heart.  Also my cousin and family lived in Tashkent working for the Pakistani airlines, and he only has good memories of Uzbekistan. 
 
I just wonder what all your thoughts are.  I feel that all turkish/turkic people are like, if not brothers, then my cousins.  I wish I could say BROTHERS as I feel the Turkish blood in my viens, but I fear Many Turks will not except me as so.  So even Cousin will make me happy.  Maybe many Turks have image of Pakistans as Dark Indian looking people because of TV.  But Pakistan was only made in 1947 when a lot of Indian muslims came to live in the area now called Pakistan, infact many of these people now are in the government, like Musharaf whose family is from Delhi in India.  The original people of North Pakistan are really similar looking to Turks of Central Asia.
 
Please tell me your thoughs positive or negative I will not mind, I just would like to know your feeling about your lost cousins (maybe brothersEmbarrassed) in Pakistan.
 
Junaid / Cneyt
 


Hey Cuneyt,

This is a really interesting post. Thanks for sharing your experience...My family is Turkish from the Caucasus region, and we tend to believe a Turk is anyone who feels himself to be a Turk and has loyalty to that identity. So if you feel that way then to me you are, and most Turks would definitely agree Smile

It's important to keep in mind that in the Turkish language, there is no equivalent to the English word "Turkic".  There is only "Trk", which means, depending on the context of the sentence, a Turk or Turkish (meaning Turkish in the racial sense not language). So while English sources refer to one people or another as "Turkic", Turkish sources will refer to them the same way they refer to themselves, as Trk.

As for the origins of the Turks, so far the oldest Turkic group that we know are the Huns (called "Xiongnu" by the Chinese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu) who first appear in historical sources in the 3rd century BC. Another Turkic group related to the Huns would appear in the 2nd century BC called the Tiele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele). So the first Turks are essentially from what is today known as Siberia.

The Turkish national epic, Ergenekon, describes how the Turks were born. One day, a large Hun village was sacked and destroyed by the Chinese. A lone wounded boy warrior is found by a she-wolf with a blue mane called Asena (now a popular Turkish girl name), who nurses him back to health and leads him to a safe mountain valley called Ergenekon. So this is where the patriotic Turkish symbol of the Grey Wolf comes from and the idea that Turks were born from wolves. The wolf would walk in front of his army as he lead it to victorious battles over his enemies.

After a few hundred years, the descendants of the wolf and the boy outgrow the valley and become determined to move, but they can't find the way out since it had been so long since they arrived. When they realized a part of the mountains were made of iron-ore, they melted their route to freedom (iron forging is a very ancient practice for Turks). Now in Turkish mythology the wolf is helpful and a symbol of honor in a violent, unpredictable world.

The story of Ergenekon is thought to have occurred in 209 BC, the date Mete Han (aka Oguz Han) ascended the throne. Hence the Turkish people and military institutions trace their beginnings to this date. The date is also on the Turkish Army coat of arms.



I hope this info helped. Here's another useful page about Ergenekon http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=100932


Edited by kafkas - 19-Apr-2008 at 15:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 21:57

Salaam!

  Padishah Bro! can you plz translate that article for me, i would be so glad if u do it for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 23:21

Al Salaam Alikum,

 first of all Thanx to u  Padishah Bro!
 
 I Appriciate and i pay my Thanks to  whole Turkish Nation for that great help for Kashmiri people after that Earth Quake, it really proved the Brotherhood between our countries.
  it proved Turkey as a live nation.
     i wonder and want to know from where i belong exactly, which is a huge importance for me, currently im in Dubai, running my business.

Salaam!

  Padishah Bro! can you plz translate that article for me, i would be so glad if u do it for me.
(Altin miras)
 
 
Alaykum Salam bro
 
Here is a rough translation for you.
 
The Himalayas, the highest peak in the world has for a long time been an unknown region to the wider world. We were introduced to this area by Nasuh Mahruki when he reached the peak, we had no knowledge that there were Turks in these mountains...
In the lower Himalaya region part of Kashmir there are reportedly some 300 villages which claim Turk ancestory. One thousands families living in the Sarp mountains are trying to survive after the recent Earthquake and all of them have the same surname, Osmani... they are living in a region which is divided between Pakistan and India. According to one theory they came from the Horossan region to their current location. The second theory is that they are remnants of the Ghaznavids. The Ghaznavids led campaigns in the region 17 times and some of the soldiers were left in Kashmir and today these families are their descendants.
 
They talk a broken form of Turkish (Turki/Turkic). They have not forgot Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamit II Han who set up links and gave assistance to them a century ago. The earthquake heavily effected the region where these villages are located. Hundreds of lives were lost, however, the relief aid to these hard to reach areas by Turkish red crescent volunteers won the hearts and minds of the locals.
 
Azad-i Kashmir is a part of Pakistan, during the 2005 earthquake the region was devasted. The villages we mentioned were in such a bad stage tham some were almost wiped off the map. These villages are in a harsh terrain with poor access via roads and no railway, making it difficult for them to recieve help.
 
The locals were pleased to talk to us about their Turk heritage, in 1976 the Azad-Kashmir Turk development association was formed between these villages to represent their voices.  The association has released a book tracing the history of Turks in Kashmir, alot of the families trace descendancy to the Timurid era.
 
Ali Osmani allowed "Zaman" (newspaper) to interview him, he said "We are Muslim and Turks". Our forefathers came from Horassan and settled in Kashmir". He stated they had lived in the north of Muzafferabad and had established villages there. He later said, "Our forefathers came to Kashmir and helped found the city Muzafferabad, many Sufi mystics and religous leaders (Imams/learned men/scholors) came to Kashmir from Turkistan".
 
Osmani surname, loyalty to Abdulhamit II
 
The Turks of Kashmir have lived in the region for over a thousand years now. Due to living at a high altitude in the steep mountains they have been shut out from the outside world. They feel lucky and have gratitude that they are under Pakistani control. They say their brethren in India controlled Kashmir are not as well off, have a harder life and suffer some persecution.
Ali Osmani says, the Turks of this region had diplomatic relations with Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamit II Han, "out of respect for this leader and his relations with us, we adopted the surname "Osmani" ". When Turks embraced Islam some tribes dispersed to different areas, some went south to the Hindustan region. The Ghaznavids led forces to the region 17 times and were played an important role in spreading Islam to the region. In Muzafferabad there are still some Turk neighborhoods.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 21:34
Bro Thanks Alot for Your Translation Of that Article.  That was very fine Translation, Not Rough, Smile...Clap.
 The Article is really great.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:51
I am a Hazara! I can Call myself Mongol because I know and all my family does also that we are direct Descendant of Changiz Khan but not his soldiers!
All People of Afghanistan and norhtern and Western Pakistan that look Asianish they Have to do something either with Turks or Mongols! Clearly its not How much or % you are a Turk or a Mongol! if you have Turk blood or Mongol blood in you! your automatically turk!
Its not if others except you of being turk it you excepting it! Not in just one way but in Many ways you are a Turk!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:55
Originally posted by Hazarabacha

I am a Hazara! I can Call myself Mongol because I know and all my family does also that we are direct Descendant of Changiz Khan but not his soldiers!
All People of Afghanistan and norhtern and Western Pakistan that look Asianish they Have to do something either with Turks or Mongols! Clearly its not How much or % you are a Turk or a Mongol! if you have Turk blood or Mongol blood in you! your automatically turk!
Its not if others except you of being turk it you excepting it! Not in just one way but in Many ways you are a Turk!
 
So what?  Do you expect someone to give you a pat on the back or to congratulate you?  You have already posted this same boast in other threads.  Either contribute something constructive to the thread or stop repeating yourself.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2017 at 08:39
As the last post is 8 years old, this thread is closed.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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