Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedTurkic Origins in North Pakistan

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
niki View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkic Origins in North Pakistan
    Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 11:07
To be Turk means to have Turkic genealogy, (Kyrgyz, Kazakh etc) otherwise why we must know our seven fathers and genealogical list is the most valuable thing in any Turkic family. Language is not a factor.
Tenir
El
Umai
Back to Top
BAWIR$AQ View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2006
Location: Kazakhstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 21:59
niki,

The traditionion of keeping the family genealogy (shajara) is lost in many Turkic ethnic groups, where language became the common denominator of "Turkicness".

"Malım janımnı sadağası, Janım arımnı sadağası"

"Sacrifice your riches for your life, Sacrifice your life for your honor"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 01:35
İf it is tru,what will we do about Mongolian-speaking Turkic peoples?(like Yellow Uighurs).They don't speak Turkish,won't we accept them as Turks?
Back to Top
Kerimoglu View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 05-Oct-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 313
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:37
Nop, geneology is not a proof, it is never a proof to ones nationality, but rather race.
 
The main thing is Language, Traditions, General Culture, Moral, Religion and so on.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
Back to Top
kurt View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 358
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 06:38
cuneyt, as a turk from Turkey, i would tell you that i personally consider you a turk and that therefore i feel a certain kinship towards you that i feel with every other turk on this planet. I am sure that the people of Turkey would share this attitude towards you.
 
Turkey has been accepting central asian turks for a long time; uighurs from china, and kirghiz fleeing from the soviets in the 80's, perhaps one day in the future you should apply for citizenship in there, i am certain they would give it to you. Just wait five or so years first, right now there aren't too many job opportunities but with the rate at which the economy is rising you should be able to live a comfortable life there in the future.
 
I am moved by your story. Ne mutlu turkum diyene!
Back to Top
niki View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 07:54
But still genealogy is something like entrance to Turkic (any Nomadic I believe) world. Genealogy could be falsificated, it is something like granting "citizenship". I don't think that some Russian will be accepted as Kazakh even if he would forget Russian and he and his children will speak in Kazakh.
What do you think, who are Moghuls? (I think many Turks in Pakistan decsendants of Moghuls). Moghuls considered as Turks not only because they were Turkizied but also (more important) because they were included in All-Turkic genealogy as Turkic ethnic group. Here I am talking not about particular person, but about persons who identified themselves with particular ethnic groups and nations.
Even if Turks from Turkiye do not preserved a tradition of keeping genealogic tree list in their families, Turks thenselves as ethnic group included in All-turkic genealogy. I mean, it is not only "inside" self-recognition of themselves as turks, but also such "Turks" must have "outside" recognition of the rest Turkic world. Otherwise any "quls" could call themselves as Turks. This name is not for anybody Wink


Edited by niki - 25-Jun-2007 at 07:57
Tenir
El
Umai
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:07
Genealogy is very important factor to be a Turk, and Culture is also very important, a person needs to have bothe but because genealogy only applies for nomadic people, because after being settlesd the relationships change nobody would keep the Shajara Name.
To define a Turk an academic aproach is the language factor, because nobody knows who were the original Turks, and what was their genetic pattern,
if you go with the defination of noadic culture and Turkic language still an Afshar Turkmen from Turkey or a Qashqai from Iran will be different form a Kazak.
 
I have a question for niki, do you consider yourself better that who ever you call "Quls". remember that quls also used to enslve the otherside too. I guess understanding the human being is from the same origin is very important, do not miss that point if not you gonno trapped inside yourself.
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:52
Niki, is this the same 7 generation custom shared in Kazakistan aswell?
 
By geneology do you mean for example, if a family belonged to a Turkic clan of 7 generations?
 
Language is an important factor, also if you mean geneology as above it can be important, for example if you belong to the Afshars then obviously your a Turk as they belong to the Oghuz Turks.
 
It starts getting pretty complicated.
Language, culture, self-perception, acceptance, identity, historical ties and bonds etc are all important factors that can make somebody a Turk.
Also like our friend Cuneyt, somebody who has traced his descendancy and today still feels a connection to Turks obviously has the right to be a Turk.
But nobody is better-worse, pure-unpure than each other, these terms are divisive, offensive and biggoted.
 
Also Niki, I have read and watched some documentaries about the "Turkatalar" or Kirgizistan who say they are descendants of the Gok-Turks, do you have information about them?


Edited by Bulldog - 25-Jun-2007 at 18:54
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
niki View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 02:31
Originally posted by qaraniq

I have a question for niki, do you consider yourself better that who ever you call "Quls".
No I am not. But our ancestors did. This one (knowledge about someone's origin, clan, tribe, el, 7 fathers) was the control of "citizenship" and kin. If some "qul" (here it is something like "stranger") could not answer the question about his 7 fathers, he would be robbed or even killed without any consequences for brigands. "7 fathers" is symbolic and real  protection in that uncertain world.
Again look at my post more carefully. I wrote that if family did not preserved their genealogic tree, we must determine them as Turks by their self-identification. If they identify themselves with some ethnic group which belongs to All-Turkic genealogic line, we can accept them as Turks. It is something like super-national conciousness. I consider that Turks in Pakistan mostly have super-national identification with Muslim, but not with Pan-Turkic identity.
What about Kurds in Turkey, they can speak Turkish as well as many of us, but even Turks themselves ask of them "Memleket?", if answer located as far as east of Malatya, - they are not Turks, isn't it?
 
Tenir
El
Umai
Back to Top
niki View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 02:50
Originally posted by Bulldog

1. Niki, is this the same 7 generation custom shared in Kazakistan aswell?
 
2. By geneology do you mean for example, if a family belonged to a Turkic clan of 7 generations?
 
3. But nobody is better-worse, pure-unpure than each other, these terms are divisive, offensive and biggoted.
 
4. Also Niki, I have read and watched some documentaries about the "Turkatalar" or Kirgizistan who say they are descendants of the Gok-Turks, do you have information about them?
1. Yes. Genealogy, preserving information about 7 fathers was a kind of unconscious and unintentional resistance against assimilation in Soviet period. Many Kyrgyzs and Kazakhs in cities spoke in Russian and little Turkic, but still many of them knew their roots and at least they knew their tribe. It made a difference between US and THEM (the rest Soviet citizens)
2. We can talk about family tree (narrow meaning) and common genealogy of all Turkic peoples (wide), for both we use one Arab word - shajara.
3. Yes, of course. Do not forget that genealogy always falsificated. In this case we cannot talk about purity of nation.
4. Sorry I did not understand the question. A lot of Turkic groups try to proof their origin from Kok-Turks, but the Kyrgyz. As for the Kyrgyz we never say that we are descendants of Kok-Turks, Huns (Hsioung-nu) or somebody else, because the Kyrgyz mentioned with them at the same hostorical period. You can find the information that the Kyrgyz originated from Ting-Ling, red Di in China and Karasuk culture, I mean that the Kyrgyz try to find their origin at period before Hsiung-nu, before 201 BC
Tenir
El
Umai
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 08:20
Niki
4. Sorry I did not understand the question. A lot of Turkic groups try to proof their origin from Kok-Turks, but the Kyrgyz. As for the Kyrgyz we never say that we are descendants of Kok-Turks, Huns (Hsioung-nu) or somebody else, because the Kyrgyz mentioned with them at the same hostorical period. You can find the information that the Kyrgyz originated from Ting-Ling, red Di in China and Karasuk culture, I mean that the Kyrgyz try to find their origin at period before Hsiung-nu, before 201 BC
 
Sorry for not making myself more clear. I watched this documentary about Kirgizistan precisely the "Osh" region, where they spoke to the "Turkatalar" who are said to be descended from the GokTurks and have traced this.
 
You can watch it here.
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
niki View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 09:11
Originally posted by Bulldog

[quote]Niki
I watched this documentary about Kirgizistan precisely the "Osh" region, where they spoke to the "Turkatalar" who are said to be descended from the GokTurks and have traced this.
 
You can watch it here.
 
It is because of interview was given to Turkish chanel, something like Viva Panturkism, Yashasyn turkler Birligi. Even in school books, there is clear division between Turks (KokTurks) and Kyrgyz.
Tenir
El
Umai
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 15:06

In the video there interviewing that specific group, it doesn't claim all "Kirgiz" are GokTurk, just these Turkatalar which it says there are 200,000 of claim descendancy from them.

      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Ustad-i Azam

Joined: 16-Jul-2005
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1379
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by niki


It is because of interview was given to Turkish chanel, something like Viva Panturkism.


Haha, a kick-ass answer from Niki. Clap
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 07:58
Haha its the little kid in the corner poking his head up again...LOL
 
Anyway let's ignore his childish antics and get back to the topic.
 
 
Hyderabad
 
Qutubshahi tombs in India

A pencil sketch rendition of photographs. A dedication to my father-in-law who passed away last month. Hyderbad was his city. The tombs of the seven Qutub Shahi rulers reminds one of the glorious past of Hyderabad. The tombs are very close to the famed Golconda fort. The tombs are now in disrepair but once were inlaid with beautiful blue and green mosaic. Restoration and preservation was initiated by Salar Jung III. These tombs are a great example of Persian and Turkish architecture. Sarojini Naidu, the Nightingale of India, penned a poem,


The Royal Tombs of Golconda

I MUSE among these silent fanes
Whose spacious darkness guards your dust;
Around me sleep the hoary plains
That hold your ancient wars in trust.

I pause, my dreaming spirit hears,
Across the wind's unquiet tides,
The glimmering music of your spears,
The laughter of your royal brides.

In vain, O Kings, doth time aspire
To make your names oblivion's sport,
While yonder hill wears like a tier
The ruined grandeur of your fort.

Though centuries falter and decline,
Your proven strongholds shall remain
Embodied memories of your line,
Incarnate legends of your reign.

O Queens, in vain old Fate decreed
Your flower-like bodies to the tomb;
Death is in truth the vital seed
Of your imperishable bloom

Each new-born year the bulbuls sing
Their songs of your renascent loves;
Your beauty wakens with the spring
To kindle these pomegranate groves.

 
 
 

[img[http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1500_1599/golconda/qutbshahitombs/qutbshahitomb.jpg[/img]
 
 
 
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 09:18
According to OzTurkler site, Qutubshahis are from the Baharlu branch of the Qaraqoyunlu
 
6. Baharlu Tribe:
It was a significant tribe of the Karakoyunlu State with the secondary degree of importance. They were directly relative and related with the Karakoyunlu tribe. The Baharlu tribe that settled in the region of Hamedan had withdrawn to the east pursuant to the domination of Akkoyunlu State. Bayran Han, one of the descendants of Ali Şeker Bey who was a Baharlu chief was one of the close fellows within the retinue of Ekber Shah (1556-1605). Furthermore, Sultan Kulu (or Kuli) who was the founder of the Kutbshahiler State in Dekken (Dahkan) was from Karakoyunlu tribe. One of the groups from Baharlu tribe still lives in the province of Hamse that is located in the west of today's Kazvin.
 
 
 
The Baharlu belong to the "Yiva" branch of the Oghuz Turks. The Yiva have an interesting history. Sultan KilijArslan was at head of the Turkish Oghuz Yiva tribe army and set up his capital at Nicea todays Iznik and fought off the First Crusade aswell as re-establishing the Selcuk of the Rum.
 
Today there are "Yiva" Turks in Anamur region in Turkey
 
After Seljuks conquered the castle of Anamur, the earea came under the dominance of Turks. The settlement, coming under dominance of Karamanoğulları after Seljuks became powerless, became a land of Ottoman Empire in the second half of l5th century.

The Turkish clans settling in Anamur belong to the YİVA clan of Oğuz Turks. One of the great foundings in İ-İl was the YİVA tribe at the time of 2. Bayezid. YİVAs in İ-İl are divided into two as minor and major. It is registered that there were forty villages belonging to YİVA clan in this period.

 
This village is Yiva in Kayseri
 
 
Also Denizli, Igdir and there are other regions they're in, if you can get hold of a translation of "Faruk Sumer Oguzlar" book it could help.
 
Yiva Turks are found in Northern Syria, Northern Iraq, in Iran the "Baharlu" are a part of the Qashqai nomadic Turks.
 
 
 
If you visit Turkey again Cuneyt, you could ask some authorities in the region and they may look into it for you. You never know, you could be distantly, distantly, distanyl related Tongue
 


Edited by Bulldog - 27-Jun-2007 at 09:19
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
niki View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2007
Location: Kyrgyzstan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 10:51
Originally posted by Bulldog

In the video there interviewing that specific group, it doesn't claim all "Kirgiz" are GokTurk, just these Turkatalar which it says there are 200,000 of claim descendancy from them.

I do not think that we have some group that claims themselves as offspring of KokTurks. I think it was personal opinion of some individual who belonged to that tribe and who think in such way. Again I think it is because of interview was given to Turks.
We have Qypchaq tribe and sometimes members of this tribe consider themselves as separate group from the Kyrgyz. It was accident (for us it is!) when one such guy registered as Qypchaq (not the Kyrgyz) in Batken region. It is because (Fergana) Qypchaqs existed as separate El (tribal union with "personal" independent shajara) untill the middle of XIX century, when they were exterminated and shared between Kyrgyz and Uzbeks. If we trust to Klyashtorny, Qypchaqs - late ethnic name of Sirs. Sir was a people (El) which created Second Turkic Qaghanate together with Celestial Turks. If Qypchaq tribe of the Kyrgyz could be considered as Sir from Orkhon-Yenisei inscriptions, we can say that some tribe of the Kyrgyz (Qypchaq) is descendants of Sirs (not Kok Turks).
Tenir
El
Umai
Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Ustad-i Azam

Joined: 16-Jul-2005
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1379
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 10:59
Haha its the little kid in the corner poking his head up again...LOL
 
Anyway let's ignore his childish antics and get back to the topic.


What are you talking about "Bulldog"?

First, answer my question. Are you ashamed of your background? Who the hell are you to speak for Turks? Aren't you a "British" whose knowledge about Turkey and Turkish people limited by some "Museums" and Pan Turkist websites?

Edited by The Hidden Face - 27-Jun-2007 at 11:00
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:11
Go spam somewhere else.
 
I don't need to go around screaming I'm a Turk, I'm comfortable with my identity Smile
 
Now go play your silly games somewhere else, you don't contribute to any posts unless your trying to convince some Europeans who hate you that your like them...whose ahasmed of their background hmm
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 27-Jun-2007 at 11:12
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:18
Back to the topic.
 
Pak-Turk schools building up ties, hopefully it will be a sucessfull project and Pakistani and Turks will get to know each other more and develop stronger ties than there even is now.
 
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.140 seconds.