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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkic Origins in North Pakistan
    Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 07:33

Hello everyone,

I have a question for you all.  What is a Turk?  Are you only a Turk if you speak Turkic languages.  The reason I ask is because my father's family live in North Pakistan.  But my father has always said our origin is Turkic from central Asia.  Our tribe is called Qutub Shahi and are originally from one of the six sons of Qutub shah a Turkish general of Mahmud of Gaznavi.  I have noticed that the Gaznali Empire (Gazneliler) is considered one of the 16 byk Trk imparatorluğunu.
 
Not to mention that the area where my family is from has been invaded many times by Central Asian Turks. Including Timur and Babar (Again of the 16 byk Trk imparatorluğunu).  Also Again directly connected to my family is The Mamluk Sultanate of Qutbudin Aybeg and his succesors Shamsudin Iltutmish and Ghaisudin Balban  These Turkic names are still very popular in our family, (more than Arab or Persian names) as well as the name Kublay, Changez and AlpArslan.  Also our surname is Khan.  My name is Junaid which I know is popular in Turkey as Cneyt. Also I know of a great Turkomenistan leader who fought the Russians called Junaid Khan.  Also My great grandfathers grave stone is written Turkish (not Persion or Urdu).  BTW. Urdu is infact a Turkish word ORDU (army/tent).
 
North Pakistanis generally love the Turkic people, our language, food and culture contains many many Turkic elements.  Even our flag shows our love for the Turkic people with its Ay Yildiz. I am told of stories where my great grandmother and many like her sold their jewellary to send money to help the Turkish war of independence.
 
I am not saying I am Turkish now, because I guess we maybe have had admixture of Persian, Afghan and maybe even Indian over the years, but my father and I, because of our faces, are often mistaken as Turkish (by Turks!) where we live in London and when we visited Turkey.  I loved going to Istanbul for holidays because of the love the People showed me.  Honestly compared when I went to Saudi or Morrocco, they just think you are s**t if you are not arab, and they think people from Pakistan or Indian are the lowest human, even though Pakistanis are Muslim like them.  Don't get me wrong not all were like that but certainly the majority.  Whereas in turkey everyone I met was so friendly, it left a great impression in my heart.  Also my cousin and family lived in Tashkent working for the Pakistani airlines, and he only has good memories of Uzbekistan. 
 
I just wonder what all your thoughts are.  I feel that all turkish/turkic people are like, if not brothers, then my cousins.  I wish I could say BROTHERS as I feel the Turkish blood in my viens, but I fear Many Turks will not except me as so.  So even Cousin will make me happy.  Maybe many Turks have image of Pakistans as Dark Indian looking people because of TV.  But Pakistan was only made in 1947 when a lot of Indian muslims came to live in the area now called Pakistan, infact many of these people now are in the government, like Musharaf whose family is from Delhi in India.  The original people of North Pakistan are really similar looking to Turks of Central Asia.
 
Please tell me your thoughs positive or negative I will not mind, I just would like to know your feeling about your lost cousins (maybe brothersEmbarrassed) in Pakistan.
 
Junaid / Cneyt
 


Edited by Cuneyt - 15-Jun-2007 at 12:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 08:18
Being able to speak a Turkic language would probably be one of the most important things for being considered as a Turkic/Turk. But your father said that your ethnic origin is Turkic from Central Asia, then that's enough for being ethnically Turkic.
 
What's more, you have a positive feeling towards Turkic Culture. This is also a very, very important thing.
 
I am more than happy to hear that the people from Northern Pakistan feel closer to Central Asian and Anatolian Turks as Brothers.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 09:07
Junaid,
 
I am happy to read very beatifully told post. Greetings from Turkiye.
 
A Turk is who speaks a Turkic Language (and/or has Turkic Culture). This is my idea.
 
To be a Turk you do not have Turkic blood.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:09
Salam Junaid
 
I just wonder what all your thoughts are.  I feel that all turkish/turkic people are like, if not brothers, then my cousins.  I wish I could say BROTHERS as I feel the Turkish blood in my viens, but I fear Many Turks will not except me as so.
 
Don't worry about not being accepted, I would say that majority of Turks would have absolutely no problem accepting you as a Turk infact they'd be intrigued, pretty amazed and touched by your story.
 
If feel a Turk, have Turkic relatives you have every right to call Turkic peoples your brothers.
 
I have a question, does anyone in your family still speak Turkic?
 
I remember reading recently that when the recent earthquake struch Pakistan, some Turkish red crescent aid workers who came to the region to try help with the devastation caused by it were shocked to come across Turkish villages near the Himalayan mountains.
 
Pakistani's and Turks have very good relations, I remember my grandfather telling me that there are many brothers in London, when I asked who, he said Pakistani's and said there good people Big%20smile
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:32
Originally posted by Bulldog

I remember my grandfather telling me that there are many brothers in London, when I asked who, he said Pakistani's and said there good people
 
This is new to me now. I thought your ethnic background was English.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:42
Originally posted by white-wolf

Junaid,
  
A Turk is who speaks a Turkic Language (and/or has Turkic Culture). This is my idea.
 
To be a Turk you do not have Turkic blood.
 
 
IMHO, Botherhood or tie should be mainly based on the common early history, then comes common culture, language etc.
 
A man has two sons, one was raised in France the other was raised in England, they don't speak the same language, they don't have exactly the same culture, aren't they brothers? 
 
Of course, we also agree they became brothers and sisters with respective family members, due to the same culture and same language.   
 
For a group of people, most of the time the common language is the reason of common history, that is why we always tend to judge by linguitical factor, which is the easiest to be determined.  
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:45
Hidden_Face
This is new to me now. I thought your ethnic background was English.
 
I'm Brittish offically Tongue 
Ethnic background is a long story Smile


Edited by Bulldog - 15-Jun-2007 at 10:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 11:50

Thank you everyone who posted, you will not believe how happy I am to get your responses. Really I am sitting at my computer with tears in my eyes. I can really feel your brotherly comradship. I think maybe you may never know how all you few words of acceptance and friendshiphave touched my heart and very soul. Why do I feel this way? Why do I feel this connection? Again I can only explain it with the English Saying "Blood its thicker than water".


Actually as to the language question, I am told my Great-grandfather spoke Turkish, Persian and Pashtu. My grandfather lost the Turkish and Persian he spoke only Pashtu and Hindko. My father lost Pashtu and spoke Hindko, Urdu and English. I lost Hindko and most Urdu and speak English. My wife is also ethnically different from me. So my Kids will probably only speak English. Kind of complicated I know, but just about every generation speaks a different language due to circumstances and mothers!! Maybe my family is like original nomads! Big%20smile Alhumdulillah we all have been and are still Muslim.


So I guess linguistically it is a difficult problem to say I am Turkic. But how about African Americans in America. They have lost their African language and mixed somewhat with other races in US but they still call themselves African-Americans and feel close to African cuture. Also the case of England. England like North Pakistan was invaded many times by the Romans, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons and Normans. English is a mixture of all these languages plus the indiginous language of the celts and aboriginal people of Britain (the same as Urdu being a mixture of Sanskrit, Turkish, Persion and Arabic) But most Englishmen will Identify themselves as Anglo-Saxons who were from continental EuropeNEVER as celts (who are now mainly the Irish and Welsh) Even though their language is not German.


So in that sense I guess I feel I can Identify myself as Turkic or at least related to Turks. Thank you again to everone for their warm feeling towards my story. Really I can say all my encounters with Turks whether in realtime and now in cyberspace have been most friendly and brotherly. Turks have the realunderstanding ofMuslim Brotherhood. I feel quite sad and slightly disguisted now when I think of my encounters with many Arabs, and their superiority complex. Truely the last 1000 years of Golden Islam have belonged to the Turks.


I hope you can teach me many more detailed things about the wonderful culture of the the Turkic people.


Junaid / Cneyt





Edited by Cuneyt - 12-Sep-2007 at 02:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 10:20
Originally posted by Bulldog

 I'm Brittish offically 
Ethnic background is a long story
 
Shorten it then. What's your connection to Turkishness?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 00:29
I found an interesting article on Turkish Language and Urdu called:

TURKIC LANGUAGES AND LEXICAL SIMILARITIES OF TURKISH AND URDU - An Etymological Approach

LINK:

http://www.saag.org/papers18/paper1737.html


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 05:55
^I think there is none mabey a few loanwords
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 10:55
 
Its very interesting.
 
The author sums it up brilliantly
 
NEED FOR GREATER SOCIO-CULTURAL TIES BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF INDIA AND THE PEOPLES OF CENTRAL ASIA AND TURKEY.
 
 
The Indian Sub-continant and Turkic lands have a long history of interaction. I know that Buddhists from India spread Buddhist teachings among Turkic peoples, the Turk-Shahis were Buddhist (I think they were Turks) Also alot of Turkic leaders had states in India. I notice, Indian Tandoori is popular in Central Asia and even Turkey aswell as Tandir, there are quite alot of similar dishes. Musically, I know, Amir Khushrow was influential in Hindustani classical music and Qawalli, also I think there are some Pakistani rythms in Turkic music.
 
There should be more studies and co-operation, Turkic countries and Pakistan have really good relations both pollitically and through the communities.
 
 
Cuneyt
I hope you can teach me many more detailed things about the wonderful culture of the the Turkic people.
 
It's great to read your last post bro Smile
 
Do you have some family traditions, cultural aspects which you feel are similar to things you see among other Turkic peoples?


Edited by Bulldog - 19-Jun-2007 at 10:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 18:13
Hi; guys this is my first post, I am familair with central asia, I spent two years between some of them, I think india and central asia have affected each other too much.I will write about this later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 10:57
I found another link giving some very good information on the link between Urdu and Turkish and in fact Hindustani. 
 
 
Although I would say that as the writer is an Indian he obviously trys to put a stong a link with Hindi/Hindustani.  I would dispute that as I think Hindustani is infact an ofshoot language of Urdu and Hindi.  Hindustani being much more Sanskrit based.  Hindi was heavily promoted by the British.  to Quote from http://www.theurdulanguage.com/History.htm
 
"The fall of the Urdu language began in the late 1800s.  Coincidentally it was the same time when the Muslims lost control of the region to the British after ruling (majority) Hindu India for over 1200 years.  The imperialist power gave great importance to the spread of English and chose Hindustani as the medium language for the average man.  Hindustani was the language mixed between Urdu and Hindi (with the scale slanted heavily towards the latter).  It was used as a tool to merge the Hindus and the Muslims into a single identity, servants of Britain."
 
Infact the Urdu and Hindustani Spoken in India underwent a similar process as Turkish in the Ataturk language reforms.  Where Turkish was purged of most of its Arabic and Perian words.  The government of India tried to take Hindustani back to its original Hindi words and many Arabic, Persian and Turkish were removed as they were seen as words introduced by the Muslim Conquerers.  Ironic that Turkish is seen as an Islamic language when compared to Ataturks reforms Wink.  Infact an Urdu speaker will hardly be able to understand Doordashan, which is the state run Indian TV because of all the Sanskrit/Hindi words that have replaced the "Muslim" language words.  Also it must be noted theat the "High" Urdu of the elite classes was never similar to Hindi or Hindustani.  For example how many of the laymen Hindi speakers in India would be able to easily understand Mirza Ghalib.  Also to keep the Turkish theme, the traditional term of enderment for an older man in Pakistan is Khan saab, try calling an Indian that and you may well get some very strange looks.  Anyway this is another discussion that doesn't really belong here.  I just wanted to make clear the point that Pakistan is very different from India.  It bores me when people try to make out that India and Pakistan are the same (something many Indians I know like to do).  If they were so similar why did they split? It's like when people confuse Turks (from Turkey) as Arabs and insist that Turkey is a Middle-Eastern Country.  They are not the same. And before anyone replies saying I am bashing Indians because I have links with Pakistan.  I can categorically say I am not.  I have all the respect in the world for India and Indian/Hindu Culture and what it has given the world.  It is just Turks are not Arabs and Pakistanis are not Indians and Urdu is not Hindi....That was my point.
 
In my last post I gave a link talking about the lexical or Vocabulary similarities between Turkish and Urdu but it seems there is some research going on comapring the similarities in Syntax of these two languages too:
 
 
Finally something more lighthearted, a Pakistani boy singing a Turkish song:
 
 
Also another one:
 
 
Clap
 
 
 


Edited by Cuneyt - 20-Jun-2007 at 18:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 12:48
I wouldn't equalize Turkic influences in Pakistan to Turkish. No doubt, Turkic influences in Pakistan are huge. But these Turks came from Central Asia not from Anatolia. Babur spoke and wrote in Chagatai language, which is also sometimes called "the old Uzbek language". The Turkic connections of Pakistan lay primarily in Central Asia, where modern Uzbeks live.
 
Turkey is quite far from Pakistan. I just mean that although Uzbek and Turkish culture have a lot of things in common, they are not the same. Uzbek language for example is in Southeastern branch of Turkic languages, while Turkish in Southwestern (Oghuz) branch. In other words, Turkic doesn't mean Turkish per se.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 20-Jun-2007 at 20:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 16:01
Sarmat
I wouldn't equalize Turkic influences in Pakistan to Turkish. No doubt, Turkic influences in Pakistan are huge. But these Turks came from Central Asia not from Anatolia.
 
And, those Turks came to Anatolia from Central Asia. Turkish is Turkic, among Turks there is no distinction, Turki is the language of Ali Sher Navoi, Babur Khan and Suleyman the Magnificent.
 
Sarmat
Babur spoke and wrote in Chagatai language, which is also sometimes called "the old Uzbek language". The Turkic connections of Pakistan lie primarily in Central Asia, where modern Uzbeks live.
 
Babur spoke Turki, read Baburnama he says it himself, these terms are just misnomers.
 
Turkic connection to Pakistan lies further back than the Timurids (not Ozbeks, Shaybani laid foundations of Ozbek state), the Turk-Shahis (I'm not certain about their history?), the Gaznivids, the Delhi Sultanate, Khilijis, Tughlak dynasty, QutubShahi dynasty,  famous historical leaders like Raziya Sultana, Iltutmush, Aybek etc
 
 
Turkey is quite far from Pakistan. I just mean that although Uzbek and Turkish culture have a lot of things in common, they are not the same. Uzbek language for example is in Southeastern branch of Turkic languages, while Turkish in Southwestern (Oghuz) branch. In other words, Turkic doesn't mean Turkish per se.">
 
 
Distance is not an issue, if your a Turk your a Turk, doesn't matter if your from Eastern Turkistan or Prizen in Kosovo. This doesn't mean that they're all identical, however, they share this common identity.
 
Cuneyt was expressing his bond to Turks and that there is some connections in Pakistan with Turkic regions.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 16:05
[quote]
In my last post I gave a link talking about the lexical or Vocabulary similarities between Turkish and Urdu but it seems there is some research going on comapring the similarities in Syntax of these two languages too:
 
 
Finally something more lighthearted, a Pakistani boy singing a Turkish song:
 
 
Also another one:
 
 
Nice posts.
 
I think the Pakistani boy came second in that competition Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:52
Originally posted by Bulldog

Sarmat
I wouldn't equalize Turkic influences in Pakistan to Turkish. No doubt, Turkic influences in Pakistan are huge. But these Turks came from Central Asia not from Anatolia.
 
And, those Turks came to Anatolia from Central Asia. Turkish is Turkic, among Turks there is no distinction, Turki is the language of Ali Sher Navoi, Babur Khan and Suleyman the Magnificent.
 
 
I agree with sarmat.Turkey even had minimum influence in central Asian Turks and even Iranian Turkic Nomads. I have  not heard the Turkish people made toward east more than city of Tabriz in N.W. of Persia.
Bulldog I have seen many of your posts, please note that Turkic is a family of languages, like  slavic, and t like slavic people, Turks have diffrent nations and background.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 20:13
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I agree with sarmat.Turkey even had minimum influence in central Asian Turks and even Iranian Turkic Nomads. I have  not heard the Turkish people made toward east more than city of Tabriz in N.W. of Persia.
 
Do you have any idea how ridiculous and unlogical that entire sentance.
 
Do you think that Turks of Turkey landed on a rocket from the moon or something.
 
Let's go through the basics.
 
Turks migrated from Central Asia to Turkey, they also went to Pakistan, they also ruled Iran for around 1000 years almost interrupted...etc...etc
 
So your entire comment doesn't make any sense. Central Asian Turks are the reason why Turkey is Turkish, they're the reason there are an estimated 25 million Turks in Iran and why Azerbaijan is Turkish. Turks of Turkey made there way there via Tabriz.
 
 
 
Qaraniq
Bulldog I have seen many of your posts,
 
And I've seen many of your Mr "Arash", it won't be long till your banned for the 100th time now will it...


Edited by Bulldog - 21-Jun-2007 at 07:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 02:03
Originally posted by qaraniq

Originally posted by Bulldog

Sarmat
I wouldn't equalize Turkic influences in Pakistan to Turkish. No doubt, Turkic influences in Pakistan are huge. But these Turks came from Central Asia not from Anatolia.
 
And, those Turks came to Anatolia from Central Asia. Turkish is Turkic, among Turks there is no distinction, Turki is the language of Ali Sher Navoi, Babur Khan and Suleyman the Magnificent.
 
 
I agree with sarmat.Turkey even had minimum influence in central Asian Turks and even Iranian Turkic Nomads. I have  not heard the Turkish people made toward east more than city of Tabriz in N.W. of Persia.
Bulldog I have seen many of your posts, please note that Turkic is a family of languages, like  slavic, and t like slavic people, Turks have diffrent nations and background.

Turks are one nation including peoples,not many nations.Turkic is not just a family of languages,today being is a Turk is lingual but this because of mixing with other peoples(so we look pyhsically different),we are the same nation.

There aren't any Iranian Turkic nomads,just Altaic.
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