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calvo
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Topic: Magyar origins Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 15:45 |
Hi,
I'm new to the forum.
From my experience with all the Hungarian people that I've known, I get the impression that their opinions towards their "Magyar" origins are rather diverse, often depending on their political tendencies.
a significant percentage of Hungarians tend to identify their ancestors with the "Turkic" peoples of Asia, esp de Uygurs of China; others stress on their Finno-Ugric linguistic afinnities with Siberian peoples such as the Vogul and Ostiak (Khanty Mansi); and another percentage claim that they are 100% European and take it as an insult when you mention to them that they might have some degree of Asian blood.
What is the most common idea?
Many Hungarians from Rumania claim that they are descended from Huns, avars, or Mongols....
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barbar
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Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:16 |
I was amazed when my Hungarian friend told me that wolf is a sacred animal, that they avoid calling the direct name, instead use a word "animal with four legs", reminding me Turkic naming of the wolf "boz kurt" instead of "Bre".
They also have another sacred animal (forestic), I don't remember well, seems to imply their Uralic ancestral line.
I was even more startled when he told me "torul" (a kind of eagle) is a sacred bird, which was also the sacred bird for Uyghurs with the almost same name "toghrul".
They used a Runic script, most of the letters the same as Orhun script, which was used by Turkic people as early as 7th century.
In Sui shu, a tribe Mieju was mentioned around Caspian sea as one of the Tiele tribes (Tura, Turkic).
Arabic traveller Ibn Fazlan mentioned that Magyars were Turkic.
I remember two Chinese musicians compared the folk songs of Hungarians and Yugur (Seriq Uyghur) to find out extreme similarities.
Magyar is a very distinct language group from Finnic in the Uralic family. the name Uguric derived from Ugur, Ogur, Oghur. Oghurs are the early branch of Turkic people moved to the west.
Interestingly the idea Turan is originated in Hungary.
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Herschel
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Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 13:04 |
Babar, please link other ancient cultures to the Turks, too. I don't think they get nearly enough praise on this forum. I mean, we all know that the Turks were the first to have sacred animals and the like, and other cultures must have adopted it from the Turks OR they are blood cousins and are basically family.
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barbar
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Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 18:48 |
Herschel, first of all, don't put words in my mouth. No one is claiming anything of Turkic cultural superiority here. If you have other opinions just write it down, bashing without any basis is also not something that can be praised here.
One of the function of the history is to provide the ties between the different groups, so that to serve for more human harmony. There is nothing wrong to find the historical relations between different groups. Of course it is also a matter of interest. If you don't give it a sh*t, then don't waste your time.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 19:16 |
Originally posted by barbar
Interestingly the whole idea Turan is originated in Hungary.
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Really ?
I thought the idea of Turan comes from Shakh-Nama of Firdousi
Edited by Sarmat12 - 15-Jun-2007 at 19:38
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Sarmat
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Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 19:43 |
Originally posted by calvo
Many Hungarians from Rumania claim that they are descended from Huns, avars, or Mongols....
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There is a distinctive ethnic group of Hungarians in Transilvania called Szekeli. There are different theories of their origins. Some of them name them the direct descendants of Huns, some say they originate from Avars. But definetely not from Mongols.
By the time Mongols came in 13th century Hungarian people already had an establised national identity. Mogols also didn't remain in Transilvania.
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 09:19 |
I didn't know the wolf story, but it could be certenly true. The other sacred animal beside the turul was the deer. ("Hunor" and Magor" came to the Carp. basin while they were hunting a hind(?). ) And the Turul bird made our first prince lmos with Emese.
There are some topics with the same content on AE (but not so many as about scythians:-)
Calvo, the most common idea today is the finno-ugric-iranian-turcic origin.:-)
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DayI
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Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 13:54 |
Tar szernd, whasnt todays Hungary called by the Byzantians as Turchia in the medievals?
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 02:39 |
Yes.
and: f.e. Ibn Fadlan and Gardhizi wrote thet the hungarians were types of turks, Masudi wrote that north of Byzantium there were living 4 turcic tribes, and one of them were the hungarians. Konst. Perf. thought that the hungarians were "the" turks.
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barbar
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 07:31 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Originally posted by barbar
Interestingly the whole idea Turan is originated in Hungary.
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Really ?
I thought the idea of Turan comes from Shakh-Nama of Firdousi |
I mean the idea Turan (based on linguistical Uralo-Altaic famliy) was originated in Hungary. (vambery)
The word Turan has longer history. It's not Ferdawsi who mentioned first. He only collected the legends. However, he mentioned the land of Turan as the land of Turks. Avesta refered Tur to the people in the east of Iran who had sun worship.
It is not only Iranian sources which mentioned Turan or Tur. In early Chinese sources Turkic tribes were also mentioned as Tiele, which is the trasliteration of Tura.
BTW, I think I have to confirm with my Hungarian friend about the wolf legend, "an animal with the tail" might be what they call in Hungarian.
And I'm quite sure another animal is not deer. He showed me the picture of it, and it's a kind of animal I have never seen.
"the curse of Turan" is also another intereting thinking of Hungarians.
Edited by barbar - 17-Jun-2007 at 07:40
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 07:43 |
F.e. there are several villages and towns in the old, large and in small hungary, wich are showin the origin of the first inhabitants. (f.e. that shows, wich hung., or khasar, or horesmian, alanian tribe got that territory, or wich non nomadic people, f. e. vallons, germans, kiev-russians etc)
Refl. to Barbars post, there are f. e. Trkeve and Tura:-))
Yes, now isthe wolf story clear, but one of the saint animals is surely the deer ("animal with antler" in Hungarian (szarvas) The title of the tale is Mese a csodaszarvasrl-The tail of the wonder-deer.
The other animal is maybe the tltos, a sacred (winged) horse. (tltos means in english saman, and it is interesting, that most of the asian samans are calling their drums horse. He carriing the saman to the upper or lower world.
Or do you mean the griphon? (like a winged lion with falcon head)
Edited by Tar Szernd - 17-Jun-2007 at 07:49
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calvo
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 08:57 |
If the most common idea is the iranic-turkic-ugric origin, then it doesn't make any sense.
Iranian is indo-european
turkic is altaic
ugric is uralian
3 distinct linguistic families.
I know that some Hungarians dislike the Ugrian idea for the fact that they don't want to be associated with the "khanti-Mansi" people of Siberia who share with them the closest linguistic affinities, because:
1. it places their ancestral homeland in Russia, and the Hungarians are sick of Russian imperialism.
2. the Khanti-Mansi and other "Ugric" people appear to be primitive, physically feeble (not necesarily true) hunter-gatherers; while "Turkic" makes them sound more like conquerors on horseback.
Any Hungarians on the forum to answer these questions?
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 10:39 |
In our national hymn cc. 75% of the words are of ugric origin, but on the south of the Ural (in the antient ugric terr.) was reached by the iranian tribes 4-5 Cent. BC. . By moving south the hungarians got contact with turcic groups since the (?:-) 4-5. century AC.. In these time they (or some tribes of them) were possibly always part of a tribe union (leaded by iranians , turks etc) And they (and their) vocabulary was mixing (was mixed by the ruler) with the other tribes. (f.e. most of the old hung. dignity names and tribe namesare have turcic origin)
An interesting thing about the hantis and manysis: the ugor hunters used until the 19. cent composit bows with non bending siyahs, but this weapon was not made from horn, sinew and wood, but just from two layers of wood, and itt was longer than a common eurasian reflexbow.
Why they used it? Some historians think that they originali lived on the northern steppes, but the russians or an other enemy chased them into the tayga. So they had to adapt to the new environment.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 12:28 |
Originally posted by barbar
I mean the idea Turan (based on linguistical Uralo-Altaic famliy) was originated in Hungary. (vambery)
The word Turan has longer history. It's not Ferdawsi who mentioned first. He only collected the legends. However, he mentioned the land of Turan as the land of Turks. Avesta refered Tur to the people in the east of Iran who had sun worship.
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I meant the idea of Turan as the world of Nomades (of Barbarians) which is an antipode of the sedentary world of Iran comes from Shakh Nama. Besides, as I know, Turanians of Firdousi were Nomadic SKythians or Saka. Later the geopolitical concept of Turan as a Nomadic Universe remained. However, the inhabitants of Turan were replaced by turkic tribes. That's why later Turan became a synonim of Turkic world. And the idea of great Turan etc. was mainly promoted by Ottoman empire as I know.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 12:59 |
Wiki also supports my interpretation:
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calvo
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 13:17 |
Some say that the Turkic Bashkirs are supposed to be related to the Magyars. Is there any proof?
They say that the Magyars were Bashkirs who migrated to Europe and retained their Ugric language, while the Bashkirs adopted the Turkic language of their Tartar neighbours.
Many speculations..., but little proof.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 17:10 |
Originally posted by calvo
Some say that the Turkic Bashkirs are supposed to be related to the Magyars. Is there any proof?
They say that the Magyars were Bashkirs who migrated to Europe and retained their Ugric language, while the Bashkirs adopted the Turkic language of their Tartar neighbours.
Many speculations..., but little proof. |
Well, it's actually the most popular theory of the origins of Bashkirs. Magyars still were willing to call Bashkirs as their brothers to move to Hungary in 13th century, but these attempts were not succesful.
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barbar
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 15:43 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Wiki also supports my interpretation:
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No, it doesn't.
You said:
"Turanians of Firdousi were Nomadic SKythians or Saka."
and the wiki says:
"The association with Turkic cultures is also primarily based on the Shahnameh accounts referring to inhabitants of Turan as Turks"
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Sarmat
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 16:01 |
Originally posted by barbar
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Wiki also supports my interpretation:
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No, it doesn't.
You said:
"Turanians of Firdousi were Nomadic SKythians or Saka."
and the wiki says:
"The association with Turkic cultures is also primarily based on the Shahnameh accounts referring to inhabitants of Turan as Turks"
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I was talking that original Turanians in Firdousi's view were Iranian speaking nomades. Later the ihabitants of Turan were replaced by Turks, but the name Turan remained.
The origin of the name Turan also doesn't have to do anything with Turks it comes from Tur, the elder son of epical Iranian king Fereydun. Turan in other words is the kingdom of Tur.
wiki says this:
The identification of the Turanians with the Turks is a late development, possibly made in the early 7th century, the Turks having first come into contact with the Iranians only in the 6th century. [22]
The problem is that, later Turkic nomades, just absorbed large numbers of the ancient inhabitants of Turan i.e. Iranian nomads (Saka) into their new ethnicities and some Turanian epic heroes like for example Afrasiab, who was an Iranian orginially, bacame associated with epic Turkic heroes.
However, original Turanians were nomadic Iranians according to Firdousi,
Edited by Sarmat12 - 18-Jun-2007 at 16:02
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barbar
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 16:45 |
Please take some time to read Shahname.
Tiele (Dili, Di) tribes were known even BC to the Chinese as such. I hope you don't mean that Chinese got the names of their neighbours from Iranians.
Also Turkic and Iranian contact dates back to somes thousands BC, so the wiki is making nonsense there. Steppe people were always interacting between each other.
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