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Magyar origins |
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 Topic: Magyar originsPosted: 14-Jul-2007 at 20:34 |
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Common people in Hungary (Romania, Voivodina etc.) haven't got one opinion, but they accept all of them together, I mean: people believe that Attila was related with Hungary (Hunnic theory), as well as Voguls, Finnes (Finno-Ugric theory) they feel 100% Europeans but they are proud of their Asiatic background.
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barbar
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retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 17:45 |
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Read this Sarmat:
The Shahama glorifies the great kings and noblemen of Persia. The two opposing sides, for the most part, are Persians vs. Turanians or Turks. It should be noted that the characters in the Shahama are not fiction. Firdausi had available to him sources on which to draw the characters and events from. These sources were the dahqans [a small land owning farmer class]. These dehqans were the only people who had preserved the old traditions. Since Firdausi himself was from the dehqan class, he did not have to venture far to gather information about the glorious past.
also Aleksander (Iskender Zulqerneyin) was very famous among central Asian people that many legends are dedicated to him. Learn some oral legends of these famers, then you will know that these farmers know almost all the historical features. BTW, there are more than 15 volumms of Uyghur folk legends collected from the farmers. Don't underestimate them.
But they became part of Turkic people already by the time of Firdawsi. They weren't seperate group anymore. moreover ancient Saka being part of Iranic stock is also disputable.
Now you are making some sense. It is not that the people are making someone else as their historical hero, instead indeed he was part of their ancestor. Still there is the question why the name is "Alp er Tunga" both in Qeshqeri and Yusuf Has hajibs book.
You never defined your "later". I think I have made myself very clear already, several centuries earlier than Firdawsi, Turkic people were known as Tura (tiele).
It is not the similarities. Based on writen history (not legends) the continuity of Di, dili, Dingling, Tiele was out of question. Translitiration was also clear for Chinese linguistics that these people were Tura people, namely Turkic people.
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 18:04 |
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Sorry, barbar. You advice me to read Shakhnama and even don't know what piece supports your point. I am afraid you simply didn't read it. Firdousi just summarized ancient Iranian epic stories starting from Avesta, and he used earlier records. He never "consulted with farmers"
Firdousi also wrote about Alexander the Great in Shakh nama. I don't think that "local farmers" should have known him as you write
Just read Shakh nama with comments, where all the scholars clearly write that the original concept of Turan means Iranian nomads.
And BTW there were still remnants of Saka in the Firdousi time there. Even now there is on Kazakkh clan called Saka, and Kazakhs from this clan are believed to be direct ancestors of Iranian Saka.
Sorry, I don't agree with that. There is a common trend to make famous heros of the other culturally more developed civilization your own heros.
For examle in Medieval times all the european chronists tried to align their roots to Yaphet (the Son of Noh), simply because, it was a conventional wisdom that all the humans originate from them, according to Bible
Arabs trace themselves to Biblical (Israeli) Agar, concubine of Abraham.
Lithuanians tried to prove in Medieval times that they originate from Julius Cezar etc. And there are many more examples like that.
So Turks, the same took famous and powerful Iranian Afrasiab as their forfather. I believe original Turkic legends have a very different version of their origins, which doesn't have to do anything with Afrasiab.
Besides again, Central Asian Turkic nomades just mixed with the former inhabitants which were Iranian nomades. And they also could just borrow the Iranian legen of Afrasiab. So, Afrasiab could in theory be IRANIAN ancestor of later Central Asian Turkic Nomades, given that Saka and Skythians are also their ancestors
I don't understand what you mean hear. Before Firdousi and at his time Turan-meant a realm of Nomades originally Iranian ones. Later Turan became a synonim of "Turkic world"
Again what this Di and Dili have to do with Turan. Turan is a kingdom of Tur, ancient Iranian mythical hero this concept first appeared in Shakh nama. Your arguments are not clear here. The similarity in pronouncation of the words doesn't mean that they are the same Edited by Sarmat12 - 21-Jun-2007 at 18:11 |
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barbar
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retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 17:16 |
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I don't have to qoute Shahname. Ferdawsi wasn't historian. The main source for his masterpiece were the local farming people. They couldn't know Sak or Sychians. What they knew were Arabs and Turks. For Ferdawsi, the biggest threat for Persians was the Turkic ruling, just as in the legends, the threat from the east. For Ferdawsi Turks were the Turanians, as confirmed by all the Shahname researchers.
Legends even stated that Noh had three sons, one of them (Japes) had the eldest son named Turk. Legends can't be the sole basis for our judgment.
About Afrasiab, both Qeshqeri and Yusup Has Hajip, refered to be named originally as "Alp Er Tunga", there is a very detailed research work done by Uyghur Abdushukur Muhemmedimin about this topic. You don't just simply make someone else's as your legendary hero.
When? after Ferdawsi? I have shown that as early as 5th century there were Tiele(Tura) tribes called such.
How are you so sure? Turkut(Tujue) and Tura(Tiele) were both Turkic tribes.
According to Qeshqeri, an and en are added in Turkic to make plural. Such as:
Oghul+an: Oghlan
Er+en: Eren
Iran and Turan both can be Turkic words.
No, Chinese clearly differenciated Turk and Tura. Tujue and Tiele. Tujue with 500 households defeated Tiele and annexed more than fifty thousand Tiele, and defeated Rouruan.
As I stated, all the Chinese historians agree on the continuity of Di, Dinling, Dili, Tiele tribes. And Di were dated back to before Xia (1700 BC).
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Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 02:21 |
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Iran-Land of Aryan
Turan-Land of North in old persian as I know
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 17:09 |
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I read Shahnama. The main epic story line goes around the struggle of different Iranian Shakhs and heroes with Afrasiab, evil king of Turan, who is however of IRANIAN stock (he is also a descendant of Tur). Actually, the link in Wiki about Afrasiab I posted earlier, gives a quite correct reference about his backgound, based on Shakhnama.
Did you read Shakh nama? I read it, this is why I know about the origins of the concept of Turan.
I would appreciate if you could give any passage in any chapter of Shakh Nama, which says that Turanians are Turks. I believe there are no pieces like that there.
Please correct me, with giving the exact piece if I'm wrong.
For Firdousi Turanians are hostile civilization, although they are of the same stock and origins with other IRANIAN people. Please check "Tur" again.
I don't doubt that Iranian nomades and Chinese interacted with ancient Turks for a long time starting many centuries BC., however the original concept of Turan means IRANIAN nomades, only later it became a synonim for "Turkic/Nomadic world".
Word Turan also doesn't have any connections with the word "Turk" they evolved separately, even though they sound a little bit similar.
May be Chinese called ancient Turks "Tiele" based on their transcription of the word "Turk", however again Chinese name for Turks and Turan doesn't have anything to do with each other, they evolved separately for designation of different ethnic groups. BTW modern Chinese name for Turks is Tuer or Tuerqizu.
Actually, the name Turk, first was recorded only in 6 century AD. While name Tur is very ancient and first appeared in Iranian Avesta written at some time BC. Edited by Sarmat12 - 18-Jun-2007 at 18:27 |
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barbar
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retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 16:45 |
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Please take some time to read Shahname. Tiele (Dili, Di) tribes were known even BC to the Chinese as such. I hope you don't mean that Chinese got the names of their neighbours from Iranians.
Also Turkic and Iranian contact dates back to somes thousands BC, so the wiki is making nonsense there. Steppe people were always interacting between each other.
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 16:01 |
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I was talking that original Turanians in Firdousi's view were Iranian speaking nomades. Later the ihabitants of Turan were replaced by Turks, but the name Turan remained.
The origin of the name Turan also doesn't have to do anything with Turks it comes from Tur, the elder son of epical Iranian king Fereydun. Turan in other words is the kingdom of Tur.
wiki says this:
The identification of the Turanians with the Turks is a late development, possibly made in the early 7th century, the Turks having first come into contact with the Iranians only in the 6th century. [22]
The problem is that, later Turkic nomades, just absorbed large numbers of the ancient inhabitants of Turan i.e. Iranian nomads (Saka) into their new ethnicities and some Turanian epic heroes like for example Afrasiab, who was an Iranian orginially, bacame associated with epic Turkic heroes.
However, original Turanians were nomadic Iranians according to Firdousi,
Edited by Sarmat12 - 18-Jun-2007 at 16:02 |
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barbar
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retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 15:43 |
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No, it doesn't.
You said:
"Turanians of Firdousi were Nomadic SKythians or Saka."
and the wiki says:
"The association with Turkic cultures is also primarily based on the Shahnameh accounts referring to inhabitants of Turan as Turks"
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Sarmat
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 17:10 |
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Well, it's actually the most popular theory of the origins of Bashkirs. Magyars still were willing to call Bashkirs as their brothers to move to Hungary in 13th century, but these attempts were not succesful.
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calvo
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 13:17 |
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Some say that the Turkic Bashkirs are supposed to be related to the Magyars. Is there any proof?
They say that the Magyars were Bashkirs who migrated to Europe and retained their Ugric language, while the Bashkirs adopted the Turkic language of their Tartar neighbours.
Many speculations..., but little proof.
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 12:59 |
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Wiki also supports my interpretation:
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Sarmat
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Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 12:28 |
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I meant the idea of Turan as the world of Nomades (of Barbarians) which is an antipode of the sedentary world of Iran comes from Shakh Nama. Besides, as I know, Turanians of Firdousi were Nomadic SKythians or Saka. Later the geopolitical concept of Turan as a Nomadic Universe remained. However, the inhabitants of Turan were replaced by turkic tribes. That's why later Turan became a synonim of Turkic world. And the idea of great Turan etc. was mainly promoted by Ottoman empire as I know.
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Tar Szernd
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Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 10:39 |
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In our national hymn cc. 75% of the words are of ugric origin, but on the south of the Ural (in the antient ugric terr.) was reached by the iranian tribes 4-5 Cent. BC. . By moving south the hungarians got contact with turcic groups since the (?:-) 4-5. century AC.. In these time they (or some tribes of them) were possibly always part of a tribe union (leaded by iranians , turks etc) And they (and their) vocabulary was mixing (was mixed by the ruler) with the other tribes. (f.e. most of the old hung. dignity names and tribe namesare have turcic origin)
An interesting thing about the hantis and manysis: the ugor hunters used until the 19. cent composit bows with non bending siyahs, but this weapon was not made from horn, sinew and wood, but just from two layers of wood, and itt was longer than a common eurasian reflexbow.
Why they used it? Some historians think that they originali lived on the northern steppes, but the russians or an other enemy chased them into the tayga. So they had to adapt to the new environment.
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calvo
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 08:57 |
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If the most common idea is the iranic-turkic-ugric origin, then it doesn't make any sense.
Iranian is indo-european
turkic is altaic
ugric is uralian
3 distinct linguistic families.
I know that some Hungarians dislike the Ugrian idea for the fact that they don't want to be associated with the "khanti-Mansi" people of Siberia who share with them the closest linguistic affinities, because:
1. it places their ancestral homeland in Russia, and the Hungarians are sick of Russian imperialism.
2. the Khanti-Mansi and other "Ugric" people appear to be primitive, physically feeble (not necesarily true) hunter-gatherers; while "Turkic" makes them sound more like conquerors on horseback.
Any Hungarians on the forum to answer these questions?
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 07:43 |
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F.e. there are several villages and towns in the old, large and in small hungary, wich are showin the origin of the first inhabitants. (f.e. that shows, wich hung., or khasar, or horesmian, alanian tribe got that territory, or wich non nomadic people, f. e. vallons, germans, kiev-russians etc)
Refl. to Barbars post, there are f. e. Trkeve and Tura:-))
Yes, now isthe wolf story clear, but one of the saint animals is surely the deer ("animal with antler" in Hungarian (szarvas) The title of the tale is Mese a csodaszarvasrl-The tail of the wonder-deer.
The other animal is maybe the tltos, a sacred (winged) horse. (tltos means in english saman, and it is interesting, that most of the asian samans are calling their drums horse. He carriing the saman to the upper or lower world.
Or do you mean the griphon? (like a winged lion with falcon head) Edited by Tar Szernd - 17-Jun-2007 at 07:49 |
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barbar
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retired AE Moderator Joined: 10-Aug-2005 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 781 |
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 07:31 |
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I mean the idea Turan (based on linguistical Uralo-Altaic famliy) was originated in Hungary. (vambery)
The word Turan has longer history. It's not Ferdawsi who mentioned first. He only collected the legends. However, he mentioned the land of Turan as the land of Turks. Avesta refered Tur to the people in the east of Iran who had sun worship.
It is not only Iranian sources which mentioned Turan or Tur. In early Chinese sources Turkic tribes were also mentioned as Tiele, which is the trasliteration of Tura.
BTW, I think I have to confirm with my Hungarian friend about the wolf legend, "an animal with the tail" might be what they call in Hungarian.
And I'm quite sure another animal is not deer. He showed me the picture of it, and it's a kind of animal I have never seen.
"the curse of Turan" is also another intereting thinking of Hungarians.
Edited by barbar - 17-Jun-2007 at 07:40 |
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 02:39 |
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Yes.
and: f.e. Ibn Fadlan and Gardhizi wrote thet the hungarians were types of turks, Masudi wrote that north of Byzantium there were living 4 turcic tribes, and one of them were the hungarians. Konst. Perf. thought that the hungarians were "the" turks.
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DayI
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Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 13:54 |
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Tar szernd, whasnt todays Hungary called by the Byzantians as Turchia in the medievals?
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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg"> |
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Tar Szernd
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Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 16-Jun-2007 at 09:19 |
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I didn't know the wolf story, but it could be certenly true. The other sacred animal beside the turul was the deer. ("Hunor" and Magor" came to the Carp. basin while they were hunting a hind(?). ) And the Turul bird made our first prince lmos with Emese.
There are some topics with the same content on AE (but not so many as about scythians:-)
Calvo, the most common idea today is the finno-ugric-iranian-turcic origin.:-)
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