Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedThe Albanian Dilema

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 11>
Author
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Albanian Dilema
    Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 23:28
^ great post es_bih!
Back to Top
GoldenBlood View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 130
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 17:22
es_bih , serbs are iranian by origin that mixed with slavs and found new kindom, you have several reference by serbs and europeans.
 
2) that you claim some serbs are illyrian, this is wrong because south serbian reality are assimilatet Albanians but norths serbs are diffirent from South racially. They first were Albanians than Illyrian (less last 700 years).
 
3) serbs dont know what mean word serb, i have one reference that serb mean slave.
Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 17:36

Their name was also Servs,if im not wrong!



Edited by vranakonti - 23-Jun-2007 at 17:37
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:54
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

3) serbs dont know what mean word serb, i have one reference that serb mean slave.


No, serb doesn't mean slave. Sklavos means slave in Greek, which dropped the K and became Slavos.


Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 15:37
Originally posted by Leonidas

^ great post es_bih!
 
Thank you.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 15:44
Sacred Heritage of Kosovo and Metohia
July 25, 1999



PATRIARCH OF SERBIA

The area of the Eparchy of Ras and Prizren has for ages been the central territory of our people and church life. It remainted so even after all devastation, because it is the place of the most important achievements of church architecture, painting and literature of the Serbian people through their historical existence. These testemonies to the Ortodox religion and the tradition of St. Sava are preserved in numerous monasteries in Kosovo and Metohia. These holy places were built with awareness of the unerring and eternal criterion of the value of man and his deeds, as well as the value of nation, established by God`s words on the greatness of serving God and one`s fellow human.

The same awareness, of serving, of serving God and on`s kinsmen, prompted not only powerful and the rich, kings and noblemen, to have churches and monasteries constructed, but inducted common people as well to build them and to restore and construct them again from ruins and ashes.


Gracanica,
Central Dome, Pantocrator
(click on image to enlarge)

Long before the battle on the field of Kosovo (1389) our people were thus taught and shown a heavenly understanding of life and death. And this mean that love of God is shown through love for one`s fellow humans, that having chosen the eternal Heavenly kingdom we do not renounce the temporary life on Earth; that, believing in the immortal soul we do not forsake caring for our historical self.

Today, when the skies over Kosovo and Metohia are overcast, we should remind ourselves and others of the truth that we were not asked whether we wanted to be born in this time and as a member of this, or some other nation, here, or on some other soil. We are neither to praise, nor to blame for this. But, whether we will act as humans or not, this depends on, as well as whether we will survive or to vanish as humans or non-humans before God and mankind.


More significant monasteries
and churches
on Kosovo and Metohia
(click on image to enlarge)

We believe that this monograph, written by Slobodan Mileusnic, entitled The Monasteries of Kosovo and Metohia will help us, as well as others, understand what Serbs created and built in this area, striving for the benefit of all. Because, one should ponder: what would be people of Serbia without these monasteries, in freedom on in slavery? What would be without them, before the world and us?

The inherited homeland of the Serbs, Kosovo is our duty before God and before those long-suffering people who, despite ever more abandoned homes, cherish those holy places belonging not only to Serbs but all of mankind as well.

Christmas 1999
The Patriarch of Serbia

* * * * *

Spiritual life and organization of the church of Serbian people on the territories of the present Kosovo and Metohija have been historically confirmed and based upon Christian Orthodox tradition. The Serbian Orthodox Church on this territory has been active through the Eparchy of Ras and Prizren (situated in the town of Prizren), which was established by joining two historical eparchies, the Eparchy of Ras and the Eparchy of Prizren.

The Eparchy of Ras

In the 10th century, the Eparchy of Ras was already existent. It encompassed the areas of central Serbia, by the rivers Raska, Ibar and Lim. It was first mentioned in 1020, in the second charter of the Byzantine emperor Basil II (976-1025). At that time, the Eparchy of Ras was within the Archbishopric of Ohrid. Among the first bishop mentioned are Leontius (around 1123-1126), Cyril (around 1141-1143), Euthemius (around 1170) and Kalinik (around 1196). It joined the autocephalous Archbishopric of Zica in 1219, at the time of Saint Sava. On the occasion of declaring the Patriarchate of Pec in 1346, the eparchy was promoted to the diocese of a Metropolitan. The residence of the bishop of Ras was in the vicinity of the church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul near the present town of Novi Pazar (formerly Trgoviste), or Ras. It is mentioned in historical sources, according to the names of the places where it was situated, as the eparchy of Pazar, Novi Pazar or Starovlaska. In the second half of the 17th century, the eparchy of Ras included territories of the old eparchy of Budimlje, or the newer Eparchy of Lim, or Petrovac, together with Bijelo Polje. This is why it was called the Eparchy of Bijelo Polje for a while. In the 1789, after the death of the Prizren Metropolitan Eusebius, administration of the eparchy of Prizren was taken over by Metropolitan Joanicius of Ras. Since 1808, the eparchy of Ras was been joined with the eparchy of Prizren as - the eparchy of Ras and Prizren.

The Eparchy of Prizren


South view to the Church
of the Theotokos of Ljevi
(click on image to enlarge)

The Eparchy of Prizren encompassed the territories of the old Eparchies of Hvosno, Budimlje and Polim, or Petrovac, that is, the town of Prizren with the surroundings, Hvosno (territories around Pec and Decani), and the places around the influences of the rivers Beli Drim and Crni Drim. It is mentioned in 1019, in the first charter of the Byzantine emperor Basil II. In 1219, when the eparchy was included as a part of the independent Serbian Archbishopric, the territory of Hvosno was separated as the Eparchy of Hvosno, situated in the monastery Mala Studenica, northeast from Pec. The residence of Prizren bishops was in Pec in the church of the Most Holy Theoktos of Ljevis. In the 1346, when the Serbian Orthodox Church was promoted to the level of Patriarchate, Prizren Bishopric became the diocese of a Metropolitan.


Frescoes from the North
Pillars in the Nave of the Church
(click on image to enlarge)

The monasteries of the Eparchy of Ras and Prizren have suffered from various conquerors and enemies of the Serbian people for ages. Sacrilege and the destruction were initiated by the Turks, and continued by Albanians. During the World War I (1914-1918) and World War II (1941-1945), churches and monasteries from the oldest spiritual territory in Serbia were pillaged and shelled by Germans, Italians and Albanians, as well as the other church destroyers and invaders. After World War II, devastation of Serbian Holy places Kosovo and Metohija was continued by local Albanians.


St. Nicholas Chapel, the Theotokos
with Christ and two Arch Priests,
fresco, about 1310
(click on image to enlarge)

The Communist Government by no means protected Serbian Orthodox Church and sanctity: monastery property was nationalized, priests were persecuted, and the people of Serbia, who had been expelled from Kosovo and Metohija during World War II were prohibited return to their ancient homes. However, the Serbian Orthodox Church, that is, the Eparchy of Ras and Prizren, has remained the guardian of Kosovo and Metohija holy places and the spiritual heritage which had been created over the centuries, From St. Sava to the present day. Monasteries are the best testimony about the spiritual being and the presence of Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija.

Serbian Monasteries in Kosovo and Metohija

Endowers and founders of monasteries in Kosovo and Metohija were Serbian rulers and members of their families, Serbian Noblemen, church officials, that is, priests and the people. One of the greatest Serbian patrons was King Milutin (1282-1321) who had over 40 monasteries constructed, among which the Kosovo monasteries of the Holy Theotokos of Ljevis (1306/1307), Banjska (1313-1317) and Gracanica (1313-1321).

Monasteries in Kosovo and Metohija were, and still are, of the greatest sanctity, a place for praying and ascetic life. In the past, they were the dioceses of bishops, metropolitans, archbishops and patriarchs. They have bee cultural centuries and places of public gatherings for centuries. Kosovo and Metohija monasteries were the first public schools, scriptoriums where liturgical and other church books were copied and printed, workshops for manufacturing icons and other liturgical objects.

The development of Serbian and Balkan church construction can be traced through architectural forms of monastery churches, living quarters and other monastery facilities, form the Byzantine heritage, through the Raska and Moravska schools of architecture, to the present day. In its day, fresco painting in the churches of the Eparchy of Ras and Prizren represented an exceptionally high artistic achievement in Europe (the Most Holy Theotokos of Ljevis, the Patriarchate of Pec, Gracanica, Decani). In terms of the number, historical duration and artistic value of its icons, liturgical objects and manuscripts, the treasury of Decani monastery is a true and an exceptionally rich museum of outmost importance. Unfortunately, the greatest number of the monastery treasuries was pillaged or destroyed in past by numerous conquerors and invaders.

Monasteries in Kosovo and Metohija are not merrily churches and living quarters, rich treasuries and ancient libraries. Monks, inhabitants of these holy places, building them and spiritually enriching them for centuries are their life force and their spiritual backbone; they are guardians of the monasteries and our books of prayers.

This guide to the Kosovo and Metohija monasteries is a glossary to the spiritual heritage of the Eparchy of Ras and Prizren. Altogether, it consists of description of 27 monasteries: 11 are active, 7 are mainly preserved and sometimes a place of religious service, while 9 are in ruins.


HOLY ARCHANGELS

Holy archangels Michael and Gabriel

The monastery of the Holy Archangels Michael and Gabriel is situated in the vicinity of the town Prizren, in the basin of the river Bistrica. The monastery complex, encircled by a massive wall, once consisted of the main church, living quarters, a library, a hospital, a dining room, and the small church of St. Nicolas. The monastery was constructed upon an older church site from 1343 to 1352, as the endowment of Emperor Dusan. Jakov the Elder, later Metropolitan of Serbs supervised the construction. By a special charter, Emperor Dusan donated 93 villages and an iron quarry in Toplica to the monastery of the Holy Archangels. Emperor Dusan was buried in his endowment.


Remains of the monastery
of the Holy Archangels
(click on image to enlarge)

When the Turks conquered Prizren in 1455, the monastery was damaged, and it unavoidably started falling into ruins in the second part of 16th century. In 1615, the Turks used the finely processed stone of the monastery to built Sinan-Pasha`s mosque in Prizren. The monastery of the Holy Archangels remained neglected until 1929, when Dr. Radoslav Grujic started more extensive archeological research. After World War II, the remains of the monastery were conserved.

The main church has the base of an inscribed cross with three altar apses: the middle one is wider and pentagonal from the outside. The large twelve-sided dome rested upon four arches, which were supported by four pillars. The church probably also had four smaller side domes. The vestibule with five openings is located on the West Side. The faade was covered with white and red marble. The iconostasis was made of stone, while the floor was made of blue and white stone slates with plenty of fantastic decorations representing animal and geometrical figures.

St Nicolas` church is considerably smaller, but it was constructed and decorated in the same way as the big church. It has the appearance of a single-nave building, with the apse on the east, and the open vestibule on the west. The dome rested upon the west side wall and two walls from the altar side. Another dome was placed above the vestibule. The monumental dining room had the base of a free cross with the apse on the south.

The preserved remains of frescoes in the main church point to similarity with the work of artists from the coastal art workshop.

The monastery was revived as monastery in 1988.

The ruins of the fortress of Visegrad, which is also known as Prizrenac or Gornji Grad, are situated on the hill above the monastery.


BANJSKA

Holy Archdeacon Stefan

Banjska monastery is situated in the town of Banjska in the vicinity of Kosovska Mitrovica. Banjska was the endowment of King Milutin. It was constructed between 1312 and 1316. The monastery was built as King Milutin`s burial church, and it was thus better furnished and more elaborately decorated than Milutin`s other endowments.


Banjska
(click on image to enlarge)

The church of the Holy Archdeacon Stefan was built upon an older church site, where the Bishopric of Banjska was situated in the second half of 13th century. It was during the reign of Milutin`s father, King Uros I. During the reign of King Milutin, Banjska monastery was promoted, and became the fourth among Serbian monasteries. Having obtained approval from Archbishop Sava III (1309-1316) and Jelena (his mother), Milutin assigned construction of this sacred place to his spiritual father, Prior Danilo, whom had come from Chilandar. When King Milutin passed away in Nerodimlje in 1321, Archbishop Danilo II (1324-1337) relocated his body to Banjska. Theodora, Emperor Dushan`s mother, was buried in the north chapel soon after Milutin. Milutin`s relics were transferred to Trepca by monks in 1389, and later, in 1445, they were taken to Sofia, Bulgaria, where they still are. During the 17th century, Banjska was transformed into a mosque. The monastery suffered the greatest devastation in 1689, when Turkish and Austrian armies used it as a fortress during the Austrian-Turkish war. In the same century, monastery floors were dug out, so that the gold mentioned by Archbishop Danilo could be found. In 1915, two rings, a gold one and a silver one, were found in Theodora`s grave. These rings are considered the most significant specimen of Serbian medieval jewelry. Banjska church was restored in 1938.

The church of Banjska monastery belongs to the group of Ras church buildings. It was built according to the plan of the Most Holy Theotokos in Studenica. The base in the shape of a one-nave building with a semi circular altar apse. Choir apses leading to side chapels are north and south from the nave of the church. The vestibule with two domes -belfries- is on the west. It was made of dressed stone in three colors. The most significant item of Banjska sculpture is the Theotokos with Christ, currently situated in nearby monastery of Sokolica.

Only fragments of images of saints in the arch medallions under the dome have remained out of the formerly abundant fresco-paintings in the church of Banjska monastery (1317-1321).

Archeological excavations within the monastery complex started more than two decades ago and have not been finished jet.

=========================================================
 
THE THEOTOKOS OF LJEVIS
August 31, 1999

South%20view%20to%20the%20Church%20of%20the%20Theotokos%20of%20Ljevis
South view to the Church of the Theotokos of Ljevis
The church of the Most Holy Theotokos is located in the old part of Prizren. Remains of the older church buildings are under the foundations of the present church. The oldest one is a three-nave basilica with three alter apses and two vestibules. This building had the features of Byzantine provincial architecture. It is assumed that the Bishopric mentioned in a charter by the Byzantine emperor Basil II in 1018, was situated in this church (monastery). The original church was destroyed at the end of the 12th century, when Stefan Nemanja occupied Prizren. As Stefan the First Crowned had annexed this area to the Serbian state in 1214, the former Prizren Bishopric was included in the territories of the Serbian church when it won its independence in 1219. This is when the old church was partially restored, and the walls were decorated with paintings with inscriptions in Old Slavonic.

The church of the Most Holy Theotokos was thoroughly rebuilt by the order of King Milutin in 1306-1307. Therefore, the present church is King Milutin's endowment. The restoration was supervised by Prizren Bishops Damian and Sava, and carried out by craftsmen and builders Nikola and Astrapa, whose names can be seen in the fresco inscriptions in the exonarthex. Master Nikola managed to adapt the architectural composition of the new church to the old one. Thus was created one of the most beautiful Serbian medieval churches, which was not constructed according to another church, but presented an original architectural design. It presents a combination of the original three-nave basilica, and Milutin's five-dome cross-shaped church with the external vestibule and two level belfry above. Only the side walls and remained from the old basilica. The central dome rests upon four pillars, while the small domes are placed diagonally at the very corners. The southern side space is covered with a cross-shaped ceiling, while the north one is covered with quarter-logs. The external vestibule, which was originally entirely open on the ground floor, is covered with a cross-shaped arch ceiling. The church was built from alternate layers of brick and limestone. The surface of the facade is vivid with double and triple windows and niches. Various ceramic-plastic elements are used for decorating the facade.

Two layers of frescoes are preserved in the church, but they were severely damaged, when the church was transformed into a mosque. Only three fresco paintings from the beginning of the 13th century are preserved: The welding in Kana, Healing of the Blind Man, and the Most Holy Theotokos with Christ the Guardian. These paintings are close to works from the Comnene period. The other layer of paintings, which dates from the time of King Milutin, between 1307 and 1313, was discovered mostly during restorative work in 1950-1952, when the layers of plaster which had been applied when the church was transformed to a mosque was removed. These paintings were painted by the famous artists Mihailo Astrapa with his company. Scenes of the Great Holidays, Christ's Passion, Miracles and Parables, as well as individual images of the Christian saints are dominant in the nave. Female saints, dressed in contemporary gowns of Byzantine and Serbian noblewomen are presented in the central part of the church, on the first pair of pillars. The Dormition of the Theotokos is presented on the west wall, while the Last Supper, Washing the Feet, and Trial of Christ are on the south wall. All the images were painted quite vividly and in motion. Fragments of the scenes: the Divine Liturgy, Communion of the Disciples and the monumental Theotokos in Prayer are preserved in the altar apse. The cycle presenting the scenes of the life of Saint Nicholas are situated in the south nave. A unique range of Serbian historical portraits is in the vestibule. A bust of Stefan Nemanja presented as Simeon the monk is painted above the portal, kings Stefan the First Crowned and Milutin are on his right, while St. Sava, painted as an archpriest, is presented on his left. A painting of deacon is next to him. A portrait of King Milutin, the endower, exceeding life-size, is painted opposite the composition on a red background with a long, glorying inscription. The painting of King Uros, which is quite damaged, serves as his counter-part, while Jesus Christ is presented above them in the act of blessing. The walls of the external vestibule are illustrated with scenes describing the Judgement Day and the Baptism. Images of archpriests, among which there are a number of Prizren bishops, can be also seen here. The southeast chapel contains illustrations concerning the lift of Saint Nicholas, scenes from Saint George's life are in the north chapel, while Saint Demetrius' life is presented in the south chapel. The intricate iconographic topics of these frescoes are considerably different from works in Serbian churches of the 13th century. The appearance of new fresco images, the Creation and the Miracles, the appearance of a large number of figures in scenes, as well as the appearance of a symbolic language of allegorical, personified and metaphoric meaning presents a novelty which will mark the Renaissance of the Peleologues. The figures in the frescoes are of sophisticated expression and positive modeling.

The Theotokos of Ljevis is a parish church.


=========================================================

 
=========================================================
 
Try to understand the other side before a futile rampage on the glorious Albanian past of Dardania, taking into consideration some claims that are over two thousand years old is a rather futile attempt. Circular arguments won't solve anything, and you chose to constantly use them. Read another point of view, read your own, read a neutral, and come to a fairer compromise.
 
 
Fact is these people have been there for the last six seven hundred years. The immediate past matters more than the antiquity, therefore, coming up with claims that are legit, and concurent to this time period would bolster yoru claims much more.
 
Regards
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 15:46
The above post is an example of some of the intricate Serbian mythology, and religiou-ethnic reality of Kosovo. Working on from that is crucial.
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 20:00
Indeed albanians had never vindicate Kosova like the ancient dardania,inhabited from their ancestours,the illyrians,but as the albanian vilayet of kosova inhabited from Albanians.This is crucial and not a myth.


Edited by vranakonti - 27-Jun-2007 at 20:01
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 23:00
Originally posted by vranakonti

Indeed albanians had never vindicate Kosova like the ancient dardania,inhabited from their ancestours,the illyrians,but as the albanian vilayet of kosova inhabited from Albanians.This is crucial and not a myth.
 
So is crucial the religious identity of a whole people living in the region. My point is that reading from posts here Albanians mostly lay their claims on some lost Illyrian identiy that has nothing to do with the modern day issue at hand. Furthermore, judging from the posts one can dedudce that the Ottoman past is frowned upon and never looked upon as a point of reference to bolster support for Albanian Kosovo.
 
 
 
 
Off-Topic
 
My 500th post LOL
 
 


Edited by es_bih - 27-Jun-2007 at 23:02
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 21:02

I don't think the religion of the people living in the area is that important otherwise their ethnicity yes.Maybe religion is an important element in the serbian-bosnian-croatian conflict but not in this.The illyrian identity of Kosova is used as an argument from albanians only as reply to the serbian "kosovo is the cradle of the serbian identity" claim.In any case both claims are totally insignificant.And by the way we don't have any complex in facing our history during the ottoman rule.   



Edited by vranakonti - 29-Jun-2007 at 21:03
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 01:50
Originally posted by vranakonti

I don't think the religion of the people living in the area is that important otherwise their ethnicity yes.Maybe religion is an important element in the serbian-bosnian-croatian conflict but not in this.The illyrian identity of Kosova is used as an argument from albanians only as reply to the serbian "kosovo is the cradle of the serbian identity" claim.In any case both claims are totally insignificant.And by the way we don't have any complex in facing our history during the ottoman rule.   

 
In the Serbian-Bosnian-Croatian conflict religion was not as much of the problem as it seems. Ethnic differences increased by politics were as much the matter, however, many of the ethnic difference are based upon religious preferences as well.
 
The real issue is that there are two peoples living in Kosovo, and that they need to resolve the conflict by looking at both sides. The Serbian, and the Albanian, while it may not be as important to rational people, however, to ones more prone to the woes of nationalism such superficial ultra-nationalist claims must be looked at as well since there are numerous followers from boths sides of the conflict.
 
 
Back to Top
HEROI View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jul-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 468
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 13:34
es bih.
If we are to resolve the conflict in kosovo then we should not base our opinions and let alone actions of political nature in ancient Balcan history, because if we do we will have the Serbs claim of their cradle of civilasition in kosova with their old churches to back up,and the albanians with their claim of  decendance from ancient ilirian tribes and catholic churches even older then the serb orthodox ones,and like this we will get lost in a labirinth of endless claims and dissclaims.
 
We have to base the road to resolving this particular conflict on the origines of the conflict which is the fall of the ottoman empire,and the drwing of balcan borders by the superpowers of the time.
 
1912= The state of albania claims indipendence from the ottoman empire,and it claims indipendence for all albanian speaking regions including kosovo,with the presense of the kosovar delegation headed by Isa Boletini.
 
 
1913=The London Conference for the last time draws the borders and the powers come to agreement  without taking into acount the albanians regarding the albanian question.as follows
 
1= Kosova was given to serbia amide Rusian interference in europian affairs.
2= The decision suited well the French at the time,and was made with french and russian backing,german carelesnes and british indifference.
3=Further partition of albanian lands was not allowed by America,and up to a degree  by Austro-Hungary.
4 =and the most important point.
The albanians did not and to this day dont recognise the decisions taken in 1912 by the Conference of London,so one can not say that the albanians sudenly sprung up asking for indipendence in kosovo,but to be fair this is the continuation of a strugle (and a well documented strugle) which started in 1912 as the resolt of the London Conference.
 
I do apologise for slipin off the topic a litle but i felt i had to make it clear that kosova conflict does not belong to ancient history.
 
As for the topic there is no dilema at all,many of the words that the guy uses are not slavic at all but have very perfect meaning in albanian,a meaning suited to the geografical position etc.But is true that many others of this towns have slavic names ,such as the ones starting by gora,they come from north east albania were today there are serb muslims who call themselves goran and have established their comunity there from a long time,and villages around them have names starting by GORA,GORAN ,the rest are no surprise,but it takes long time to explain and you will forgive me till nex time .all the best.
Me pune,me perpjekje.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 17:11

I don't think you've understood my posts that is my whole point. Each side of the conflict has some type of claim that defines their ethnic heritage, therefore, a modern day solution would be sufficient, and the preferred choice as both parties involved have a vivid, and rich history in the region. The fact is that even though the majority of the population is Albanian, the Serbs there should not be devoid of their way of living, and their right to their conscience(which includes those Serbian Churches, as they are important facets of many devout Orthodox Serbs lives).

 
 
Back to Top
HEROI View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jul-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 468
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 18:08
even the most nationalistic view point in albanian politics includes the serbs minority in a democratic kosovar state that respects human rights.in fact there is no ultra-nationalistic political party in the albanian side.just to point that out.What you have is a 90% albanian population who wants indipendence after a long strugle for equal rights under a state that did not respect them,and all as a result of a conference 90 years ago without taking into acount the population of this particular region.
 
But lets not turn the topic in a kosovo topic.
 
all the best.
Me pune,me perpjekje.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 21:59
You must acknowledge that the Albanian side has not been accommodating either, numerous refugees on the Serbian side show that. There are no angels in this conflict.
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 00:39

There are not Angels in this and any other conflict,but if you discuss about it you can't just put everything in the same level,and also you have to consider the "cause and effect"For example you cant compare the massive deportation of 800'000 albanians out of Kosova,with the present serbian emigration,and so on...

Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
vranakonti View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 11-Jun-2007
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 117
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 00:51

even the most nationalistic view point in albanian politics includes the serbs minority in a democratic kosovar state that respects human rights.in fact there is no ultra-nationalistic political party in the albanian side.just to point that out.What you have is a 90% albanian population who wants indipendence after a long strugle for equal rights under a state that did not respect them,and all as a result of a conference 90 years ago without taking into acount the population of this particular region.

 
But lets not turn the topic in a kosovo topic.
 
all the best
 
 
 
Kosovo topic or Albania topic,i don't see that difference!Big%20smile
Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 15:41
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

Originally posted by bylazora

Goddodin,
 
I have observed that the Albanians 'Albanianize' slavic place names. In Kosovo, a United Nations map that reveals the Serbian names alongside the Albanian names, demonstrates your very good point. For example, Suva Reka in Slavic, becomes Suha Reka, in Albanian. Now if we follow this through logically, either Illyrian is in fact Slavic, or Slavic is in fact, Illyrian - because the Albanians, who are claiming to be descendants of the Illryians, are choosing Slavic placenames. What your point illustrates is that the Albanians DO NOT have names for these places - neither the towns, nor the villages, nor very, very importantly - the topography - such as rivers, mountains...etc. While Slavic speakers, have no memory of their ''arrival'', neither do the modern Albanians. The question them becomes, where are the authentic "Albanian'' names, if all they do is translate an original Slavic name into modern Albanian grammar. Perhaps an even more important question could be, assuming that these are true Albanian words, and therefore Illyrian - what are they doing in ALL slavic langauges, as far as Russia?
 
The most interesting accounts of place names, comes I find from travelogues, cartographers and adventurers - who during the 18th and 19th century - travelled through Albania and the region - only to cite one Slavic placename after another.
 
bylazora (capital of ancient Paeonia)


do you see bylazora why you are funny?, have you idea about history or not? Tongue

Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to slavic.

and there have not Suha Reka but we call Theranda, original ancient name.


Look history cityes of central serbia and north serboia or south serbia...there were alot cities/villages latin/albanian/turkish/hungarian/vllach and all have been changed into slavic after XIX Ceuntry.

same did othomans like serbs where the rest balcan was under othoman they createt new place with turks names and some place changed in turkish.

this is very logical friend.


Got an example for the bold part?
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 16:28
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

Originally posted by feanor11985

Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to slavic.

OMG!

How someone who claim that knows history can write such rubish?!

From 7th century till recently allmost all of the Albania and Kosovo and Metohija had slavic names of cities and settlements.
Still we have slavic names to some villages and small settlements in nortern Albania.
I dont even want to speak about history of Kosovo and Metohija with men who came from the mountain 100 years ago and claims that Serbs are invaders.

History dont know albanians till 19th century.

That is the nation that was created in the mountains and woods from barbarians not Ilirians.


LOL what funny, which city and town were slavic in 7th century? , example? who learned those imaghine your covic sasha, where is your evidence? Big%20smile

you serbs nomad can't argument just crying, you like Kosova you occupied and Vojvodina, Montenegro ect., this is funny how slaves (serbs mean slaves) try to pretent on our lands. Sleepy they even claim on italy/hungaria too because they were slaves there and have right to steal those land Big%20smile

hoverer i can't debate with slaves nomad because they make me funny  Sleepy






I agree that the that which he wrote is complete anti-Albanian rubbish, but many/most cities were indeed Slavic-populated in the 7th century. And what occupations of Vojvodina, Kosovo and Montenegro? What territorial pretensions on Hungary and Italy (I've never ever heard any at all)? And "serb" does not mean "slave".
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
Yugoslav View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 16:55
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

es_bih , serbs are iranian by origin that mixed with slavs and found new kindom, you have several reference by serbs and europeans.
 
2) that you claim some serbs are illyrian, this is wrong because south serbian reality are assimilatet Albanians but norths serbs are diffirent from South racially. They first were Albanians than Illyrian (less last 700 years).
 
3) serbs dont know what mean word serb, i have one reference that serb mean slave.


The irani origin of Serbs is just a simply theory, that stands, but be it on invisible legs. There is absolutely no (direct) proof of that. If we track the Serbs to seek their "most original" homeland, we would go to the Caucasus (which is also according to one theory the place of origin of the Albanians as well), but even that with great holes.

I know a lot of the origin of Serbs being from serbianized Albanians (especially note the Montenegran case) - or serbianized Illyrians - but ergo you contradict yourself saying that Serbs' Illyrian origin is both incorrect and correct in the same sentence. Embarrassed And I assure you, the division on southern Tosk and northern Gheg (very vast and huge) Albanians does not have a parallel with the Serbs (who stem and have much more minor differentiating inner-cultures).

In what language is that? And btw the origin of the word "Serb" is unknown and subject to great controversy. It has been definitely taken from the Slavic ancestral land, and was by one (very dominant and significant theory) the native name of Slavs ("Slav" was given by the non-barbarian Europeans). Ergo, only the Serbs and the Lusatian Sorbs became the very last Slavic peoples that actually kept the original name (btw, from there stems the Serbian nationalist ideology that other Slavic nations actually "stem through separation" from the Serbs). Also, there is little doubt that the etymological origins of the words SRB/SRV and HRV/HRB is one - and that it's only based on the version of pronunciation of the words in question - meaning that "Croats" and "Serbs" are just two different dialect names for that race. To add to this, the (those silly) theories on the origin of Croats (independently done from Serbian origin theories) are identical to those of the Serbs' - tracking the very same, or at best similar pathways - to your very famous Irani origin.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.102 seconds.