The Albanian Dilema

Accordingly, as there is no record of Slavic rule ever being extended over the territory of Albania, Albanian placenames should therefore provide us with a wealth of information about the ancient Illyrian languages.

Slavic rule doesnt mean Slavs never entered. Bulgarians make a strong presence in what is today the area of Korce and Pogradec while Serbs populated strong parts of what is today southern Albania and Greek district of Epirus. In Albania the names remain since in Greece much of them were replaced.

Much of these areas were not held by Albanians during the 6th century, but rather by Slavs. There is one particular region however that is not considered to be Slavic; that is the Kruja-Komani culture of central-Albania. The Medieval post-Roman culture here is particular and surfaces between the 6th-8th century AD. It is an isolated culture that does not leave behind any writing except for Byzantine artwork that was traded with the nearby city of Dyrrachium(Durres). Everything else is considered unique. The area is very mountainous and would eventually become one of the main Albanian strongholds during the later centuries with its capitol of Kruja.

It is from this area that Albanian colonization of what is today Albania would start around the 10-11th century.

NGL Hammond wrote of this culture(which he calls Mirdite-Mati culture):

The part which archaeology plays in this reconstruction is small at present, but its importance is beginning to emerge. For example, in the period when we hear least of the Albanians in literary sources, that is in the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., it so happens that a distinctive culture has been found through excavation to have flourished at Dalmace, Shurdhah (medieval Sarda), Kruje, Lesh, and other places (see Map 16). This culture reached its height in those centuries but continued into the tenth and eleventh centuries, so that its life overlapped the mention of �Ducagini d'Arbania' in a seventh-century document and that of 'Albeigne' in the Chanson de Roland (see the discussion in the first section of this chapter). An interesting feature of this culture is that it has been found only to the north of the Shkumbi valley; that is it is concentrated within the cantons of Mirdite and Mati (between Shtish-Tufina near Tirana and Dalmace in the north), and that it has outlying pockets at the north end of Lake Ochrid, at Golaj in Albanian Kosove, and at Mijele at the northern end of Lake Scodra. Thus the ambit of this culture is precisely in the region which we have identified on literary grounds as that of 'Arbana' and 'Albeigne'. The conclusion seems to be clear that the people of this region - known no doubt as Arbanoi and Albanoi - developed in this mountainous terrain, with many peaks of five and six thousand feet, a culture of their own which was distinct from those of the Serbian state in Zeta to the north, the First Bulgarian Empire in the lakeland area, and the Byzantine province of Epirus Nova. The salient features of this culture have been described by Hena Spahiu and Skenider Animali (66). The discoveries are from burials, the men having been inhumed with weapons of iron (axes, arrowheads and knives) and the women with jewelry (earrings, fibulae, necklaces and bracelets), while pottery, small knives and fibulae were common to both sexes. The axes were descended from the Roman type of axe; similar ones were used in central Europe in medieval times and were adopted, for instance, by the Avars. The knives and arrowheads are of types found throughout the Balkans. The jewelry has technical peculiarities which are attributed to local craftsmen working with silver, copper and iron of which the two last are still mined today in this region (see Map 16). There are some features which are related to the jewelry of western Yugoslavia and Hungary, e.g. pendants attached to a belt and to clothing. The influence of Byzantine jewelry was strong, and there were imported pieces, some with Greek script, at Kruje, which is the largest site with this culture in the vicinity of Dyrrachium. Some belt-buckles of "the human mask" shape (in which the apertures resemble a human skull) have been found throughout the Byzantine world and even beyond it (67). Thus the Mirdite-Mati culture, if we may so call it, was a fusion of central European elements at a time of many migratory movements and of Byzantine elements which stemmed from a long tradition of settled civilisation. The most important cemeteries were situated close to the strong citadels of Dalmace, Shurdhah, Lesh and Kruje. and there is no doubt that the men and the women buried there belonged to the ruling family in each case. The other cemeteries, mainly in mountain fastnesses, for instance at Rremull and Dukagjin in eastern Mati, belonged to similar families; indeed one may have been that of the 'Ducagini d'Arbania' mentioned in the seventh century document at Dubrovnik (Ragusa). The number of cemeteries in the cantons of Mirdite and Mati have been reported as twelve, and we may deduce that society was organised in small tribes, exactly as in the 1930s when Mrs Hasluck gave the number of tribes in the area as ten (see Map 16) (68) . Given this type of social organisation and the geographical conditions of the region, it is evident that some of the population was settled in towns such as Lesh and in villages in the mountains, and that others were pastoralists practising a good deal of transhumance (69). The tribal leaders were relatively rich and they employed local craftsmen in the making of jewelry. They were well armed (fighting probably on horseback rather than on foot) and exercised their rule from citadels or mountain fastnesses. There is no indication of artistic originality in this culture, apart perhaps from some technical skill in metallurgy. Pottery seems to have been restricted to large jugs and water-containers (70), and it is evident that other vessels were made of wood, as among the Vlachs today. The bearers of the Mirdite-Mati culture in what may be called the Dark Age of European history lived on the fringe of the Byzantine Empire, and they were influenced by its civilisation, but only superficially. Their social organisation, their way of life, and no doubt their outlook were entirely alien to those of the settled Byzantine peoples. This same region produced the heroic resistance to the Turks which was led by Skanderbeg and his friend Lek Dukagjini who codified in the fifteenth century the traditional taw of the preceding centuries. This area too is the home of the epic lays (71), recited to the accompaniment of the lahute, which are believed by some scholars to have originated in the sixth and seventh centuries A.D., i.e. with our Mirdite-Mati culture. We may bear this region and its culture in mind during the second part of this book, when we shall be dealing with cultures which are known primarily through archaeology and are connected in some way with the epic lays which preceded the work of Homer.

You also have to consider the nature of the people. For instance Vlachs are all over the Balkans; yet they leave behind few to no toponyms in the lands they inhabit. Why is that? Because they are a migratory people, pastorals who are constantly on the move. This was the very nature of the Albanian people until around the 15-16th century.
A Map showing the initial migratory moves.
Mirdite-Mati Culture
Subsequent Migrations
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/1848tophat/map12migrations089pj0.jpg

Edited by Theodore Felix - 31-May-2007 at 23:08

This is contradicted by the fact that the Kruje region has just as many Slavic placenames as the rest of Albania. Furthermore, Slavic placenames are evenly distributed all throughtout Albania and are predominant.

Nowhere near. The concentration of slavic placenames are centralized in the Korca region and plains. The mountainous areas lack them near completely. In the culture of Mirdite-Mati the placenames are particularly Albanian:

Bukemir
Mirdite
Dalmace
Ujibardhe
Dardhe

etc. etc.

I dont know whether its Illyrian particularly. However if it is not it is some mixture of Thraco-Dacian most likely.

And I dont know anything about Wales, so you will have to excuse me. But what is the nature of the people during this period?As I mentioned, Albanians did not settle until well into the 14-15th century. In that time Slavic control predominated in much of the towns and villages. Vlachs were always a larger body then slavs in southern Albania, yet they did not leave behind any toponyms.

As I stated in my original post, todays accepted histriography of the region simply cannot be sustained on all the evidence currently available. We need an honest re-evaluation of the history of the whole Balkan region free from 19th century English, German, French, Russian sphere's of influence and politicaly inspired version that we still have today.

Lol. Good luck on finding something new. You cant just throw out what has been proposed simply because we lack anything definitive; I dont think men like Hammond necessarily fall into this political category. Wilkes puts forward something contradictory, but fails to back up his claims in the end. Your negation lacks more then what your negating.

Im just as critical of such strong continuity theories as you are and hopefully future archeology will bring new things to light.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 01-Jun-2007 at 00:20

There is no dilema in my mind.

If the Toskas descend really some percent from the Ilirians it would only mean that the Ilirian language was a SLAVIC one (just as i pointed out elswhere) - and became bastardized Albanian one with the Roman invasion of Macedonia and Iliria and it is known that the Ilirans were allys with the Romans against the Macedonians, and that Albania became the main bastion of the Romans.Thats why we kept our language pure , while they bastardized theirs bcs they were servants of the Romans.So they had to "lick their bottoms" on Latin, u see..For tha Masta to understand!!!

But just bcs they were enemies doesnt suppose to mean that they (ilirs and macedons) didnt spoke two different forms of the Slavic tongue. Just like Croats and Serbs today. THey were simply in war.

The truth is FASTLY coming out!!!Its rushing like an avalanche....

check these links, especially if your minds are open enough to finally discard the ridiculous "late Slavic migration" 19th century theory!

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9056967/Old-Church-Slavonic-language

and

And now the meaning of the word SLAVIC :

Slavic in translation to our language and all other slav languages - SLOVO, SLOVEN means A LETTER , A SPOKEN WORD and in general means " people who speak " !!!
Do NOT mix slavic as representation for literacy with nation & ethnic identity ! Slavic comes from the macedonian and widely used for the services of the church and also old macedonian slavic became one of the official church languages !

There are many artifacts on which this old dialect is written , even from the time before Alexander and Philip around 400 BC and on which is shown this dialect and WE CAN understand it , here take a look :


http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/ambrozic/tavola_de_este.html

just klik on the violet link "read the translations" in the high center of the page.

and

The Rosetta stone with ancient macedonian language written with demotic script is another new proof , it is simple by pronouncing the demotic letters you can hear the language and when compared to the old greek the translation is the same !

example : EGYPT ( english ) ΑΙΓΥΠΤΟΝ ( ancient greek ) - AGJUPTO ( ancient macedonian , by pronouncing the written text ) and from here we have the " gjupti " a word that describes egyptians, a word that we use today !

example 2 : HE WHO IS BELOVED BY GODS ( english ) ΔΕΟΥ ΕΠΙΦΑΝΟΥΣ ( ancient greek ) TOJ BOGAMO DIVEJEI (ancient macedonian , by pronouncing, reading the text )

If you like to study the translation methods and the old text you can find it here :

http://www.exploringmacedonia.com/wbstorage/Files/Roseta_Stone-26-2-2005-Boshevski-Tentov-english.pdf


cheerz from Magedon

/

Edited by Magedon - 02-Jun-2007 at 07:22

Originally posted by Magedon   As i said - ONLY IF your minds are open enough to accept the new FORENSIC EVIDENCE wich screams loudly in the direction i pointed - ie - NO LATE SLAVIC MIGRATIONS - only INVASION of the roman sovereignity and empire FROM WITHIN - ie from the slaves( slavs) - and who were the slaves to the romans?OFC the Macedonians and Thracians. Did you checked the links i gave you??There is huge food for thought in those links. The history rewrites itselve in the 21 century ONLY BCS we now have sofisticated technologies for determining historic reality milion times more precise than what Droysen had as an info when he wrote his historic falsifications... As for the roseta stone the SCRIPT is DEMOTIC but the language written by the script is anc Macedonian.There is 100% corelation with the greek text and the new roseta translation - SCRIPT demotic - LANGUAGE written with the demotic - anc Macedonian. 3 scripts - 3 languages - just as the scientists thought in the beggining - but since they cudnt determine what the third language is - they took the root of least resistance and proclaimed that they are both on Egyptian. But the stone was speaking all this centuries - and only Macedonians cud translated the middle text with 100% correspondence with the greek words and meanings and the english ones ofc. You cant just say - its a coincidence,right?? Cheerz - open your minds and suddenly everything will be clear as day...

I think you need some help here...

2 scientists that are nor historians nor linguists. They are electrical engineers  from the university of Skopje buddy.

Here is how the stone is translated:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm

And here is info about how to read hieroglyphic and demotic egyptian.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/egyptian.html

In the 21rst century ancient macedonian got the XMK code and was characterized as IEGB (Indoeuropean greek branch).

You post links from Macnews and you expect people to take that seriously?
Now remember that this thread is about the Albanian dilema ok? I might have had some arguments with some albanians in here but that doesn't mean I won't be fair with albanian matters or accept insults about a bastardized language etc.

So what if they'r not linguists?They are mathematicians aquainted very well with deciphering codes!Is this fact somehow undermines the value of the transcription??Have you ever saw their work?I told you - the translation and all the sentences,names of gods and pharao and everything coresponds with the greek text 100%!And the fact that the guys are not linguists is just another clutch from the deniers of the Macedonian identity and nation...

Now how can you say that there isnt something there?How can that be just a coincidence?Didnt you learned that there isnot such thing as "coincindence" in this universe??

cheerz




Edited by Magedon - 02-Jun-2007 at 09:07

Originally posted by Magedon So what if they'r not linguists?They are mathematicians aquainted very well with deciphering codes!Is this fact somehow undermines the value of the transcription??Have you ever saw their work?I told you - the translation and all the sentences,names of gods and pharao and everything coresponds with the greek text 100%!And the fact that the guys are not linguists is just another clutch from the deniers of the Macedonian identity and nation... Now how can you say that there isnt something there?How can that be just a coincidence?Didnt you learned that there isnot such thing as "coincindence" in this universe?? cheerz

I'm a software engineer and have also studied mathematics. I do not claim to be a specialist in human languages. How come they are right and the whole linguist community is wrong? The demotic egyptian is a known language appearing in other texts except the rosetta stone.

Can you find one stong source that verifies their work?

AND REMEMBER...This is another thread. Start a Rosetta stone thread if you want and discuss it there.

This is a black listed issue/topic .MAcedon remains hellenic since antiquity .And "latin" alphabet is the Greek alphabet from Cyme.

This is a black listed issue/topic .MAcedon remains hellenic since antiquity.

This post is in response to the conglomerate of information below that is supposed to represent the modern Albanian claim to an anceint Illyrian heritage.

Quote:

Not many illyrian words were ever written that why there is so much mystery over the Language- these are some words that have been found in old latin and greek writings ect... Illyrian-Albanian ren -- re dard--dardhë toka--tokë las--lesh mal--mal vasa--vashë ves--vesh cuza-cucë nat--natë ara--arrë frim--frymë ra--ra caj--qaj nis-nis roj--rroj leh--lind (lehem in Geg) venedi--vendi hyll--yll bardi-bardhë fimia-fëmijë lissius-lisi bur, buris ‘man’ [Alb. burrë ‘man’] datan (datas) ‘place, settlement’ [Alb. datë ‘place, settlement] drenis ‘deer’ [Alb. dre, dreni ‘deer’] ermas ‘fierce, mad’ [Alb. jerm ‘furious, mad’] mezéna ‘a horseman’ [Alb. mes, mezi ‘stallion’, Roman. (substrat) mînz ‘stallion’] pupa ‘hill’ [Alb. pupë ‘hill’] rera ‘stones, stony ground’ (from an earlier *lera) [Alb. lerë, -a ‘stones, fallen stones’] titha ‘light, radiance’ [morning drita(ë) ‘light, day’, Alb. ditë ‘day’] Quote: There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian. The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf. Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps, which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands". Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root *albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name of England. The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of Ptolemy. Albanopolis of the Albani is a place located on the map of Ptolemy and also named on an ancient family epitaph at Scupi (near Skopje) , which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania. Arbanon is likely to be the name of a district - the plain of the Mat has been suggested - rather than a particular place. An indication of movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in the distribution of place-names ending in -esh that appears to derive from the latin -enisis or -esis, between the Shkumbin and the Mat rivers, with a concentration between Elbasan and Kruja. The term "Albanoi" may have been slowly spread to other Illyrian tribes until its usage became universal among all the Albanian people. According to the Albanian scholar Faïk bey Konitza, the term "Albania" did not displace "Illyria" completely until the end of the fourteenth century. The word "Alba" or "Arba" seems to be connected with the town Arba (modern Rab, Croatia), in prehistoric times inhabited by the semi-Illyrian Liburnians, first mentioned in 360 BC. Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words "Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano. We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnenas' account (Alexiad 4) of the troubles in that region caused by the Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118). In the History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. The Italo-Albanians and the Albanian minorities still present in Greece have been known by different names over time: Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbreshë, Arbëreshë. There seems to be no doubt that the root alb- or arb- is earlier than shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. The Albanian name of the country, Shqipëria, translates into English as "Land of the Eagles", hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem, and because of the large presence of these animals in the mountainous zones of Albania. Albanian names, like all nouns, appear under two forms "indefinite" and "definite". Hence Tiranë/Tirana, Krujë/Kruja, Elbasan/Elbasani, Durrës/Durrësi… The definite form is the equivalent of adding the article "the" in front of the noun. The common scholarly usage is to mention feminine names in the definite form, while the masculine are mentioned in the indefinite: Tirana, Kruja, Elbasan, Durrës, etc. But it is not always the case. Since Albanian territories have long been under foreign rule, historical documents may mention Albanian place-names in their Greek, Latin, Italian (Venetian), Turkish, Slavic, or even French versions. For instance, Durrës has been called Dyrrachion, Dyrrachium, Durazzo, Draç, Drac and Duras. Another source of confusion from historical sources may come from a transformation of "-n-" into "-r-", called "rhotacism", which took place in the Southern (Tosk) dialects and prevails in the literary language. Hence, the Greek/Latin "Avlona" which gave the Italian Valona" is now "Vlora". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our earliest mentioning is in the 200 Anno Domini - 4 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. They are mentioned as Albanoi, which is thought to mean 'white' - ironically, the Illyrian name for the tribe was parthini, and the first part -parth resembles our modern word -bardh, meaning precisely white, whereas the suffix -ini resembles our suffix -inj, defining the word as smth plural, i.e. Parthians, Parthinj. That we're an autochtonous nation in the Balkans is not even disputed among prominent Serb intellectuals and historians. The only dispute is whether we're Illyrian or Thracian, which in relation to our autochtony in Kosova (ancient Dardania) is irrelevant, since ancient Kosova was home to both Illyrians as well as Thracians, as is confirmed by ancient toponyms. But whilst Serb and Bulgarian historians have advocated a Thracian or/and Dacian origins of our people, most others have supported the Illyrian thesis, to the point where now only Serbs seem to favor the Thracian alternative. The Croat historian and Illyrologist Aleksandar Stipcevic formulates himself rather well when he states following; Quote: The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e. increasingly indisputable. And this ... Quote: Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian. Source Here's one Serbian document mentioning us in the 12th century, an extract from the Dusanova Zakonik; Quote: A brawl between villages, fifty perpers, (one perper was worth six gold francs); but between Vlachs and Albanians, one hundred perpers. Here are some more quotes; Quote: In the II Century BC, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, Ptolemy drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolisi (located south of Durrës), from which the Albanians were later on to be identified by the world. Quote: The first mention of Albanians in the region corresponding to modern Albania is as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Commenas account of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1110) by the Normans. (The Alexiad The Alexiad is a book written around the year 1148 by the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, the daughter of Emperor Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages.... Quote: In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Quote: 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language). Link Our first mentioning is in the 2th century AD, four centuries before the Serb arrival in the Balkans. It's from that Illyrian tribe (the Albanoi) we received our ethnonym. They were mentioned by the Greek geographer Ptolemy Claudius of Alexandria, in his work Geographia, as situated near the modern capital Tirana; Our own medieval term for ourselves wasn't Albanian with the letter 'l', but Arberesh or Arberor or Arban, with 'r', from whence the Slav term 'Arbanas' and Greek term 'Arvanites' came from, when they referred to us. This name stems also from the Illyrian era; Quote: In the II Century BC, in the History of the World, written by Polybius, there is mention of a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai. This mention of us is in the IIth century BC - 8 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. I It doesn't end there though; Quote: In the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses. The first century Anno Domini - five centuries before the Serbs' arrival. Replace the letter 'o' with 'a' and you'll get (*surprise* *surprise*) Albonenses or Albanenses!!! And finally; Quote: In the II Century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

Apart from the fact that this nice little list of shiptar �proofs� seems to repeat itself about a dozen times in the hope of making it seem that there is more evidence than there really is, many parts are irrelevant and do not even make sense.

First of all, recent scholars, the few that they are, only make an �Albanian� connection to Alexander based on the artificial Illyro-Albanian link. The facts are much clearer, neither Alexander nor ancient Macedonia are linked to Shiptars. Whatsmore, these so-called Illyrian-shiptar cognate words have been posted a billion times on the net in nearly the exact same order each time, would any of our local shiptari care to provide a source for them once and for all? Or is this too much to ask for? The emendation of some of the words are inaccurate and unfounded, many others are just guesses based on the similarity of the word however not the meaning, while others still are clearly Thracian words as compared to Illyrian. You want to see real Illyrian words? John Wilkes wrote a detailed book on the Illyrians, and yes he does mention the Albanians� claim to be Illyrians, as he mentions the same about Slovenes and Croats, and he points out the evidence for and against of each. Unfortunately, he seems to be a bit biased in favour of the shiptar cause, and rather blind to the many obvious Illyro-Slavic cognates. Nevertheless, here is a short list of some real Illyrian words as cited by Wilkes, which have been recorded from various archaeological finds such as tablet inscriptions, grave stones, etc. You tell me, do they look Slavic or Shiptaric?

BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name
BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means �to fight�
GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means �head, leader�
ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning �dawn�
PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning �right(s), to do�
MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name
MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name
VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name
PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning �over joyful�
DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name
BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning �little brothers�
DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning �next to lake�, similar name attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages.

2,500 years later, and still nearly the exact same words.

It is not the magnitude of Illyro-shiptar word links that gives the shiptar kind the right to unjustly claim an Illyrian heritage, because such a magnitude is not in existence, but rather, it is the vague Satem connection which incidentally can link Illyrian to any other Satem language in the Indo-European sphere. However, take the below into consideration:
Illyrian is more often considered a centum language, while Albanian is a satem language. The identification of Illyrian as a centum language is widely but not unanimously accepted, although it is generally admitted that from what remains of the language, centum examples appear to greatly outnumber satem examples. One of the few satem examples in Illyrian appears to be Osseriates, probably from PIE *eghero-, "lake".

So, according to the above, Osseriate is a Satem example. Osseriates stems from the Dassarite, who were a pure Illyrian tribe located next to the Ohrid Ezero, and the name of this tribe has a perfect match in Slavic. So given the fact that this significantly points towards a Satem origin for the Illyrians, it strengthens the Slavic case at the same time for the word Ezero means lake only in the Slavic languages, including of course, Illyrian. And, prior to the usual, �slavs adopted the words when they came to the Balkans�, think about how and why the Russians and Ukrainians also use the exact same words with the exact same meaning. Scholars such as I. I. Russu state that a common linguistic branch between Thracian and Illyrian is probable, while Sorin Paliga stated: "According to the available data, we may surmise that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at the other." Or in other words, like Macedonian and Croatian.


Regarding the word �Alban�, this is a pure Latin word which may have been shared by Illyrians, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the shiptar language. �Alba� in Latin means white, in shiptaric it is said as �Bardhe�, anybody living in the region was an �Albanian�, the place itself is historically connected to Montenegro, the former meaning �White Mountain�, the latter �Black Mountain�, both in Latin. Michael Attaliates speaks of the Albani and Arbani as two different people and Anna Comnena does not state that the Arbanitae are an Illyrian tribe even though she mentions the Illyrian region countless times. Furthermore, the terms Arbani and Albani are used as geographic descriptions, of people who come from a particular region but not necessarily a particular ethnos, at least not until some traces of sh*tparic writing first appear under the name of Arbereshe in the late middle ages. Another important fact also is that neither Alban nor Arban have any meaning in the shiptar language.

Regarding the following;
1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed
for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del
Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who
appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem
clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the
mountains in the Albanian language).

Lets us start by dismissing the falsity of some imaginary shiptaric �community� presiding within Dubrovnik, for nowhere and by no means whatsoever is this absurdity corroborated. Where are the shiptaric placenames in Dubrovnik? Where are they in Dalmatia? In the rest of Illyria? Is it feasible to believe that Slavs can rename 90% of the Balkans within 200 years yet the shiptari with their so-called 3,000 year Illyrian heritage cannot even keep one in the bulk of their regions? Of course not. The reference to an Albanian langauge could just as easily be for a Slavic or Vlach dialect considering the geographic proximity, it is too vague to determine definitively.

Regarding the word �Shqiptar�, when material such as �a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions� is cited, a statement made by none other than Wilkes himself, it should not be taken for granted, because it is a fact that Georgija Kastriot did not even know the word �Shqiptar� and never referred to himself as such. The flag and hence your name �Shqpitar� derive from the fact that your people were once a part of the East Roman flock, it is an Orthodox symbol, �people of the eagle�, the origins of it are more than obvious.

The Albanian region itself had a high concentration of Slavic-speakers, and the overwhelming amount of Slavic placenames in the area is testament to this, as an example check the following Slavic placenames in Albania:
Bishnice, Bitincke, Boboshtice, Bolene, Borove, Brataj, Bujan, Bushtrice, Cerkovice, Cerkovine, Corovode, Dhrovjan, Divjake, Dragobi, Dragot, Drenove, Gjorice, Golaj, Goranxi, Gostil, Gostime, Gostivisht, Gracen, Gradishte, Gumenice, Kepenek, Koplik
Kosine, Kraste, Kuc, Kukes, Lapanj, Lepushe, Leshnice, Leskovik, Libohove, Livadhe, Lubonje, Lushnje, Malaj, Mavrove, Muzine, Novosele, Ogren, Ploce, Podgorie, Pogradec, Pojan, Polene, Progonat, Rade, Radomire, Roskovec, Rreshen, Rrogozine, Rusan, Selce, Selenice, Shishtavec, Sinice, Skore, Slabinje, Sllatine, Sohodoll, Sopik, Stenje, Stravaj, Strelce, Tepelene, Tropoje, Uznove, Vajze, Vane, Velce, Velipoje, Verdove, Vermik, Vidhas, Vjeter, Vodice, Vrine, Zagore, Zapod.

Where are the shiptar placenames in Croatia and Bosnia? Nowhere to be found. How can the shiptari be Illyrians when they knew nothing of the name until the 19th century? They simple could not have been and indeed are not Illyrians.

If Parthini is really from Bardhe(white), yet shiptari like to claim Bardylus as from the same source, there is an obvious error for it should read as either Bardini or Pathylus, this cannot be reconciled.

There is no historical memory amongst the shiptari themselves with regard to being Illyrian, the first person to claim that the shiptari descend from the Illyrians was the Austrian George Hahn in his work �Albanesische Studien�, which, coincidently accompanied by the new Slavic migration theory formed the basis of Hapsburg policy towards the Balkans. Much like the modern Greeks, the modern Albanians relied on the west to draw up and inform them of �their� history. A question that is repeatedly asked is where were the so-called shiptari when Croats, Bosnians, Serbs and Slovenes were claiming to be Illyrians in the 19th century? They were nowhere to be found, it wasn�t an issue for them because not one of them even knew what an Illyrian was let alone to claim a heritage from them. On the flip side, the Illyrian heritage has a long history in the memory of the western Balkan Slavs, as is evidenced in various documents and tribal insignia from at least the early 1600�s, indeed, for many centuries the only designation used by Croats for their language was simply �Illyrian�.

Check the following sources:
1604 - Institutiones linguae Illyricae - Bartol Ka�ic.
1699 - Talijansko Ilirsko Latinski Rjecnik - Ivan Tanzlingher-Zanotti.
1700 - Lexicon Latino-Illyricum - Pavao Vitezovic.
1715 - Dictionarium Latino-Illiricum - Djuro Matija�evic.
1728 - Dizionario Italiano-Latino-Illirico cui si premettono alcuni avvertimenti per inscrivere e con facilita maggiore leggere le voci illiriche scritte con caratteri italiani, ed anche una breve grammatica per apprendere ... la lingua illirica - Ardelio della Bella.
1730 - Vocabolario italiano-illirico -Lovro Cekinic.
1740 - Gazophylacium, seu Latino-Illyricorum onomatum aerarium - Ivan Belostenec.
1742 - Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica - Andrija Jambresic.
1760 - Rjecnik talijansko-ilirski - Mato Kla�ic.
1772 - Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum - Adam Patacic.
1801 - Lexicon Latino-Italico-Illyricum - Joakim Stulli.
1802 - Ricoslovnik ilirickoga, italijanskoga i nimackoga jezika - Josip Voltic.
1842 - Njemacko�ilirski slovar - Josip U�arevic.
1858 - Riecnik ilirsko-talianski - Dragutin Antun Parcic.

Long before the false shiptar claim was ever conjured.



Regarding the shiptar claim to the Thracians, the language itself is the biggest proof that there is no connection. Many Thracian placenames are made up of two parts which are joined together, for example, �dava, deva� was a common suffix and meant �town� in Thracian, thus there existed the town of Pulpudeva, the Slavic similarity in respect to the common name suffix of �ev, ov, ovo, evo, ova, eva� cannot go unnoticed. Pulp(u) must have been a local or slang way of saying Phillip as Pulpudeva (Phillip city) is Phillipopolis, today Plovdiv. In the Slavic language the same principle can be applied when naming a city, for example Tetovo, Kosovo, and Belgrade (White city), Stalingrad (Stalin city). In modern Albanian however this is not possible for one could not say 'Stalinqytet' if they follow the modern Albanian language principles, it would have to be said as 'Qytet i Stalin', hence Albanian could not have descended from the Thracian language due this difference in structure.

The glossary below clearly shows the diversity of the modern Albanian language and the dominant influences in it. Observe the words, many of them critical to a language and all of them are loans into the shiptaric language, from Ottoman, Persian, Latin and Slavic. The male kinship terms and those that imply strength are almost exclusively Ottoman-Persian, the marine terms and female kinship terms are almost exclusively Latin, while the Slavic words are mostly related to verbs. That in itself says a lot in regards to the various and dominant elements in the modern Albanian language and ethnos, and in which areas they were most significant.

Ottoman-Persian loans
Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic)
Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish)
Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian)
Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian)
Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian)
West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian)

Latin Loans
Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian)
River = Lume; Fiume(Italian)
Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian)
Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian)
Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian)
Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian)
Good = Mire; Mira(Italian)
Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian)
Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin)
Child = Femije; related to above
Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian)
Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin)

Slavic Loans
Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic)
Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic)
Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic)
Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic)
Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic)
Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic)
Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic)
South = Jug; Jug(Slavic)
North = Veri; Sever(Slavic)

In the Slavic language group the equivalents for all of the above Ottoman/Persian and Latin loans are native Slavic words, the number of loanwords in the modern Albanian language is extremely high as compared to Slavic.

The names of some of the abovementioned modern Albanian scholars are Bogdano and Budi, names that have an obviously relation to Slavic.

The suggestion that the so-called Illyrians hid in the mountains for a thousand years and then decided to descend from their mountains for �the first time� into the Roman-Slavic lands is absurd and should be dismissed for what it is. Illyrians and Thracians were related peoples, today�s Balkan Slavs are mainly their descendants.

Courtesy from the autor of this text - Soldier of Macedon