The Albanian Dilema

Originally posted by Magedon This post is in response to the conglomerate of information below that is supposed to represent the modern Albanian claim to an anceint Illyrian heritage. Quote: Not many illyrian words were ever written that why there is so much mystery over the Language- these are some words that have been found in old latin and greek writings ect... Illyrian-Albanian ren -- re dard--dardhë toka--tokë las--lesh mal--mal vasa--vashë ves--vesh cuza-cucë nat--natë ara--arrë frim--frymë ra--ra caj--qaj nis-nis roj--rroj leh--lind (lehem in Geg) venedi--vendi hyll--yll bardi-bardhë fimia-fëmijë lissius-lisi bur, buris ‘man’ [Alb. burrë ‘man’] datan (datas) ‘place, settlement’ [Alb. datë ‘place, settlement] drenis ‘deer’ [Alb. dre, dreni ‘deer’] ermas ‘fierce, mad’ [Alb. jerm ‘furious, mad’] mezéna ‘a horseman’ [Alb. mes, mezi ‘stallion’, Roman. (substrat) mînz ‘stallion’] pupa ‘hill’ [Alb. pupë ‘hill’] rera ‘stones, stony ground’ (from an earlier *lera) [Alb. lerë, -a ‘stones, fallen stones’] titha ‘light, radiance’ [morning drita(ë) ‘light, day’, Alb. ditë ‘day’] Quote: There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian. The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf. Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps, which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands". Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root *albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name of England. The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of Ptolemy. Albanopolis of the Albani is a place located on the map of Ptolemy and also named on an ancient family epitaph at Scupi (near Skopje) , which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania. Arbanon is likely to be the name of a district - the plain of the Mat has been suggested - rather than a particular place. An indication of movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in the distribution of place-names ending in -esh that appears to derive from the latin -enisis or -esis, between the Shkumbin and the Mat rivers, with a concentration between Elbasan and Kruja. The term "Albanoi" may have been slowly spread to other Illyrian tribes until its usage became universal among all the Albanian people. According to the Albanian scholar Faïk bey Konitza, the term "Albania" did not displace "Illyria" completely until the end of the fourteenth century. The word "Alba" or "Arba" seems to be connected with the town Arba (modern Rab, Croatia), in prehistoric times inhabited by the semi-Illyrian Liburnians, first mentioned in 360 BC. Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words "Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano. We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnenas' account (Alexiad 4) of the troubles in that region caused by the Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118). In the History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. The Italo-Albanians and the Albanian minorities still present in Greece have been known by different names over time: Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbreshë, Arbëreshë. There seems to be no doubt that the root alb- or arb- is earlier than shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. The Albanian name of the country, Shqipëria, translates into English as "Land of the Eagles", hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem, and because of the large presence of these animals in the mountainous zones of Albania. Albanian names, like all nouns, appear under two forms "indefinite" and "definite". Hence Tiranë/Tirana, Krujë/Kruja, Elbasan/Elbasani, Durrës/Durrësi… The definite form is the equivalent of adding the article "the" in front of the noun. The common scholarly usage is to mention feminine names in the definite form, while the masculine are mentioned in the indefinite: Tirana, Kruja, Elbasan, Durrës, etc. But it is not always the case. Since Albanian territories have long been under foreign rule, historical documents may mention Albanian place-names in their Greek, Latin, Italian (Venetian), Turkish, Slavic, or even French versions. For instance, Durrës has been called Dyrrachion, Dyrrachium, Durazzo, Draç, Drac and Duras. Another source of confusion from historical sources may come from a transformation of "-n-" into "-r-", called "rhotacism", which took place in the Southern (Tosk) dialects and prevails in the literary language. Hence, the Greek/Latin "Avlona" which gave the Italian Valona" is now "Vlora". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our earliest mentioning is in the 200 Anno Domini - 4 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. They are mentioned as Albanoi, which is thought to mean 'white' - ironically, the Illyrian name for the tribe was parthini, and the first part -parth resembles our modern word -bardh, meaning precisely white, whereas the suffix -ini resembles our suffix -inj, defining the word as smth plural, i.e. Parthians, Parthinj. That we're an autochtonous nation in the Balkans is not even disputed among prominent Serb intellectuals and historians. The only dispute is whether we're Illyrian or Thracian, which in relation to our autochtony in Kosova (ancient Dardania) is irrelevant, since ancient Kosova was home to both Illyrians as well as Thracians, as is confirmed by ancient toponyms. But whilst Serb and Bulgarian historians have advocated a Thracian or/and Dacian origins of our people, most others have supported the Illyrian thesis, to the point where now only Serbs seem to favor the Thracian alternative. The Croat historian and Illyrologist Aleksandar Stipcevic formulates himself rather well when he states following; Quote: The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e. increasingly indisputable. And this ... Quote: Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian. Source Here's one Serbian document mentioning us in the 12th century, an extract from the Dusanova Zakonik; Quote: A brawl between villages, fifty perpers, (one perper was worth six gold francs); but between Vlachs and Albanians, one hundred perpers. Here are some more quotes; Quote: In the II Century BC, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, Ptolemy drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolisi (located south of Durrës), from which the Albanians were later on to be identified by the world. Quote: The first mention of Albanians in the region corresponding to modern Albania is as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Commenas account of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1110) by the Normans. (The Alexiad The Alexiad is a book written around the year 1148 by the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, the daughter of Emperor Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages.... Quote: In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Quote: 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language). Link Our first mentioning is in the 2th century AD, four centuries before the Serb arrival in the Balkans. It's from that Illyrian tribe (the Albanoi) we received our ethnonym. They were mentioned by the Greek geographer Ptolemy Claudius of Alexandria, in his work Geographia, as situated near the modern capital Tirana; Our own medieval term for ourselves wasn't Albanian with the letter 'l', but Arberesh or Arberor or Arban, with 'r', from whence the Slav term 'Arbanas' and Greek term 'Arvanites' came from, when they referred to us. This name stems also from the Illyrian era; Quote: In the II Century BC, in the History of the World, written by Polybius, there is mention of a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai. This mention of us is in the IIth century BC - 8 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. I It doesn't end there though; Quote: In the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses. The first century Anno Domini - five centuries before the Serbs' arrival. Replace the letter 'o' with 'a' and you'll get (*surprise* *surprise*) Albonenses or Albanenses!!! And finally; Quote: In the II Century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city. Apart from the fact that this nice little list of shiptar �proofs� seems to repeat itself about a dozen times in the hope of making it seem that there is more evidence than there really is, many parts are irrelevant and do not even make sense. First of all, recent scholars, the few that they are, only make an �Albanian� connection to Alexander based on the artificial Illyro-Albanian link. The facts are much clearer, neither Alexander nor ancient Macedonia are linked to Shiptars. Whatsmore, these so-called Illyrian-shiptar cognate words have been posted a billion times on the net in nearly the exact same order each time, would any of our local shiptari care to provide a source for them once and for all? Or is this too much to ask for? The emendation of some of the words are inaccurate and unfounded, many others are just guesses based on the similarity of the word however not the meaning, while others still are clearly Thracian words as compared to Illyrian. You want to see real Illyrian words? John Wilkes wrote a detailed book on the Illyrians, and yes he does mention the Albanians� claim to be Illyrians, as he mentions the same about Slovenes and Croats, and he points out the evidence for and against of each. Unfortunately, he seems to be a bit biased in favour of the shiptar cause, and rather blind to the many obvious Illyro-Slavic cognates. Nevertheless, here is a short list of some real Illyrian words as cited by Wilkes, which have been recorded from various archaeological finds such as tablet inscriptions, grave stones, etc. You tell me, do they look Slavic or Shiptaric? BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means �to fight� GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means �head, leader� ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning �dawn� PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning �right(s), to do� MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning �over joyful� DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning �little brothers� DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning �next to lake�, similar name attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages. 2,500 years later, and still nearly the exact same words. It is not the magnitude of Illyro-shiptar word links that gives the shiptar kind the right to unjustly claim an Illyrian heritage, because such a magnitude is not in existence, but rather, it is the vague Satem connection which incidentally can link Illyrian to any other Satem language in the Indo-European sphere. However, take the below into consideration: Illyrian is more often considered a centum language, while Albanian is a satem language. The identification of Illyrian as a centum language is widely but not unanimously accepted, although it is generally admitted that from what remains of the language, centum examples appear to greatly outnumber satem examples. One of the few satem examples in Illyrian appears to be Osseriates, probably from PIE *eghero-, "lake". So, according to the above, Osseriate is a Satem example. Osseriates stems from the Dassarite, who were a pure Illyrian tribe located next to the Ohrid Ezero, and the name of this tribe has a perfect match in Slavic. So given the fact that this significantly points towards a Satem origin for the Illyrians, it strengthens the Slavic case at the same time for the word Ezero means lake only in the Slavic languages, including of course, Illyrian. And, prior to the usual, �slavs adopted the words when they came to the Balkans�, think about how and why the Russians and Ukrainians also use the exact same words with the exact same meaning. Scholars such as I. I. Russu state that a common linguistic branch between Thracian and Illyrian is probable, while Sorin Paliga stated: "According to the available data, we may surmise that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at the other." Or in other words, like Macedonian and Croatian. Regarding the word �Alban�, this is a pure Latin word which may have been shared by Illyrians, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the shiptar language. �Alba� in Latin means white, in shiptaric it is said as �Bardhe�, anybody living in the region was an �Albanian�, the place itself is historically connected to Montenegro, the former meaning �White Mountain�, the latter �Black Mountain�, both in Latin. Michael Attaliates speaks of the Albani and Arbani as two different people and Anna Comnena does not state that the Arbanitae are an Illyrian tribe even though she mentions the Illyrian region countless times. Furthermore, the terms Arbani and Albani are used as geographic descriptions, of people who come from a particular region but not necessarily a particular ethnos, at least not until some traces of sh*tparic writing first appear under the name of Arbereshe in the late middle ages. Another important fact also is that neither Alban nor Arban have any meaning in the shiptar language. Regarding the following; 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language). Lets us start by dismissing the falsity of some imaginary shiptaric �community� presiding within Dubrovnik, for nowhere and by no means whatsoever is this absurdity corroborated. Where are the shiptaric placenames in Dubrovnik? Where are they in Dalmatia? In the rest of Illyria? Is it feasible to believe that Slavs can rename 90% of the Balkans within 200 years yet the shiptari with their so-called 3,000 year Illyrian heritage cannot even keep one in the bulk of their regions? Of course not. The reference to an Albanian langauge could just as easily be for a Slavic or Vlach dialect considering the geographic proximity, it is too vague to determine definitively. Regarding the word �Shqiptar�, when material such as �a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions� is cited, a statement made by none other than Wilkes himself, it should not be taken for granted, because it is a fact that Georgija Kastriot did not even know the word �Shqiptar� and never referred to himself as such. The flag and hence your name �Shqpitar� derive from the fact that your people were once a part of the East Roman flock, it is an Orthodox symbol, �people of the eagle�, the origins of it are more than obvious. The Albanian region itself had a high concentration of Slavic-speakers, and the overwhelming amount of Slavic placenames in the area is testament to this, as an example check the following Slavic placenames in Albania: Bishnice, Bitincke, Boboshtice, Bolene, Borove, Brataj, Bujan, Bushtrice, Cerkovice, Cerkovine, Corovode, Dhrovjan, Divjake, Dragobi, Dragot, Drenove, Gjorice, Golaj, Goranxi, Gostil, Gostime, Gostivisht, Gracen, Gradishte, Gumenice, Kepenek, Koplik Kosine, Kraste, Kuc, Kukes, Lapanj, Lepushe, Leshnice, Leskovik, Libohove, Livadhe, Lubonje, Lushnje, Malaj, Mavrove, Muzine, Novosele, Ogren, Ploce, Podgorie, Pogradec, Pojan, Polene, Progonat, Rade, Radomire, Roskovec, Rreshen, Rrogozine, Rusan, Selce, Selenice, Shishtavec, Sinice, Skore, Slabinje, Sllatine, Sohodoll, Sopik, Stenje, Stravaj, Strelce, Tepelene, Tropoje, Uznove, Vajze, Vane, Velce, Velipoje, Verdove, Vermik, Vidhas, Vjeter, Vodice, Vrine, Zagore, Zapod. Where are the shiptar placenames in Croatia and Bosnia? Nowhere to be found. How can the shiptari be Illyrians when they knew nothing of the name until the 19th century? They simple could not have been and indeed are not Illyrians. If Parthini is really from Bardhe(white), yet shiptari like to claim Bardylus as from the same source, there is an obvious error for it should read as either Bardini or Pathylus, this cannot be reconciled. There is no historical memory amongst the shiptari themselves with regard to being Illyrian, the first person to claim that the shiptari descend from the Illyrians was the Austrian George Hahn in his work �Albanesische Studien�, which, coincidently accompanied by the new Slavic migration theory formed the basis of Hapsburg policy towards the Balkans. Much like the modern Greeks, the modern Albanians relied on the west to draw up and inform them of �their� history. A question that is repeatedly asked is where were the so-called shiptari when Croats, Bosnians, Serbs and Slovenes were claiming to be Illyrians in the 19th century? They were nowhere to be found, it wasn�t an issue for them because not one of them even knew what an Illyrian was let alone to claim a heritage from them. On the flip side, the Illyrian heritage has a long history in the memory of the western Balkan Slavs, as is evidenced in various documents and tribal insignia from at least the early 1600�s, indeed, for many centuries the only designation used by Croats for their language was simply �Illyrian�. Check the following sources: 1604 - Institutiones linguae Illyricae - Bartol Ka�ic. 1699 - Talijansko Ilirsko Latinski Rjecnik - Ivan Tanzlingher-Zanotti. 1700 - Lexicon Latino-Illyricum - Pavao Vitezovic. 1715 - Dictionarium Latino-Illiricum - Djuro Matija�evic. 1728 - Dizionario Italiano-Latino-Illirico cui si premettono alcuni avvertimenti per inscrivere e con facilita maggiore leggere le voci illiriche scritte con caratteri italiani, ed anche una breve grammatica per apprendere ... la lingua illirica - Ardelio della Bella. 1730 - Vocabolario italiano-illirico -Lovro Cekinic. 1740 - Gazophylacium, seu Latino-Illyricorum onomatum aerarium - Ivan Belostenec. 1742 - Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica - Andrija Jambresic. 1760 - Rjecnik talijansko-ilirski - Mato Kla�ic. 1772 - Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum - Adam Patacic. 1801 - Lexicon Latino-Italico-Illyricum - Joakim Stulli. 1802 - Ricoslovnik ilirickoga, italijanskoga i nimackoga jezika - Josip Voltic. 1842 - Njemacko�ilirski slovar - Josip U�arevic. 1858 - Riecnik ilirsko-talianski - Dragutin Antun Parcic. Long before the false shiptar claim was ever conjured. Regarding the shiptar claim to the Thracians, the language itself is the biggest proof that there is no connection. Many Thracian placenames are made up of two parts which are joined together, for example, �dava, deva� was a common suffix and meant �town� in Thracian, thus there existed the town of Pulpudeva, the Slavic similarity in respect to the common name suffix of �ev, ov, ovo, evo, ova, eva� cannot go unnoticed. Pulp(u) must have been a local or slang way of saying Phillip as Pulpudeva (Phillip city) is Phillipopolis, today Plovdiv. In the Slavic language the same principle can be applied when naming a city, for example Tetovo, Kosovo, and Belgrade (White city), Stalingrad (Stalin city). In modern Albanian however this is not possible for one could not say 'Stalinqytet' if they follow the modern Albanian language principles, it would have to be said as 'Qytet i Stalin', hence Albanian could not have descended from the Thracian language due this difference in structure. The glossary below clearly shows the diversity of the modern Albanian language and the dominant influences in it. Observe the words, many of them critical to a language and all of them are loans into the shiptaric language, from Ottoman, Persian, Latin and Slavic. The male kinship terms and those that imply strength are almost exclusively Ottoman-Persian, the marine terms and female kinship terms are almost exclusively Latin, while the Slavic words are mostly related to verbs. That in itself says a lot in regards to the various and dominant elements in the modern Albanian language and ethnos, and in which areas they were most significant. Ottoman-Persian loans Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic) Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish) Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian) Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian) Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian) West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian) Latin Loans Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian) River = Lume; Fiume(Italian) Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian) Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian) Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian) Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian) Good = Mire; Mira(Italian) Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian) Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin) Child = Femije; related to above Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian) Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin) Slavic Loans Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic) Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic) Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic) Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic) Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic) Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic) Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic) South = Jug; Jug(Slavic) North = Veri; Sever(Slavic) In the Slavic language group the equivalents for all of the above Ottoman/Persian and Latin loans are native Slavic words, the number of loanwords in the modern Albanian language is extremely high as compared to Slavic. The names of some of the abovementioned modern Albanian scholars are Bogdano and Budi, names that have an obviously relation to Slavic. The suggestion that the so-called Illyrians hid in the mountains for a thousand years and then decided to descend from their mountains for �the first time� into the Roman-Slavic lands is absurd and should be dismissed for what it is. Illyrians and Thracians were related peoples, today�s Balkan Slavs are mainly their descendants. Courtesy from the autor of this text - Soldier of Macedon

hyehyuehhe who talk fyromian funny, artificial nation without history and culture and who are you talking about most native people of balcan father Albanians? common with joke little with slaves of Ilirida-Shkupi

 

Originally posted by Maqedon o-european language that have not caucasus words influence, slavic language have alot influence.

ohh i like to debate with funnies of Fy-romians (romas= gypsies)


First where are links that you claim for those jokes, link or scholar???

do you know that albanian language is one the oldesst language in world?, if those words are true why should be slavic? why should not be albanian where albanians are more olddest?

and how you want to pretend only for 20-30 words?, do you know kid that albanian langauge have native 60.000 words? and do you know that albanians language is one of 8 discrit language of Indo-European together with (Celtic, Latin, Baltit, Greek, Armenian, Germinan, Indic), you can find informacion about albanian and indo-european language in internet, one of them:
 http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html

ok i will learn you little father language

Originally posted by Maqedon Ottoman-Persian loans Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic)

wrong! Father is albanian is At and At� (and you slavic adobtet in tata)

Originally posted by Maqedon Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish)

hueheuhe Uncle is dajhe? hu? where you learned? uncle in albanian mean Xhaxhai and Mixh
 

Originally posted by Maqedon Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian)

 ahh joke

community in alb mean Mergat� and Komunitet

I dont see any similary here and are you sure bashgah mean

Originally posted by Maqedon Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian)

huheheuhe how mean in persian army? and where you see there similariy here?

Originally posted by Maqedon Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian)

huehehuhe

behind in albanian mean prapa and mbrapa

Originally posted by Maqedon West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian)

hueheuehe where you see here similarity?

Perendia is god in  illyrian mithology and albanian mean god (also mean Zot too)

Originally posted by Maqedon Latin Loans Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian) River = Lume; Fiume(Italian) Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian) Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian) Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian) Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian) Good = Mire; Mira(Italian) Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian) Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin) Child = Femije; related to above Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian) Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin)

where is your evidence that are latin those??

all those are right exp, Woman is Grua (not femeror)

and albanian language have 7-8% influence from latins, this is normal because illyrians/albanians were 900 years under Romans.

Originally posted by Maqedon Slavic Loans Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic)

omg why is slavic? have this word russian? or you fy-romanian adobtet?

in albanian wals also mean eci

Originally posted by Maqedon Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic)

huehehe Row in albanian is rradh� and grindje

Originally posted by Maqedon Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic)

kick origanilly mean shqelm and zboj

Originally posted by Maqedon Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic)

huehuehe Besa is 100% albanian word, i am prety sure that slavic have not this word and if have they adobtet from albanians.

Besa is giant story about albanians , but you ofcorse dont know because you are fyromian you are in imagine world.

Originally posted by Maqedon Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic)

hu? how can be slavic when this word sound tipycal albanian/proto-balcanoid?

Originally posted by Maqedon Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic)

I dont if is slavic, but here have little similarity, we in alb language have too d�frej, tallem and hajgare

Originally posted by Maqedon Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic)

in alb language is �el�s

Originally posted by Maqedon South = Jug; Jug(Slavic)

yes jug mean south but why should be slavic?, i know that is latin word

Originally posted by Maqedon North = Veri; Sever(Slavic)

where you see here similarity?

do you know that slavic lamguage has 15% caucasus influence??? and you have a big percent that adobtet words from others oldesst language???









Edited by GoldenBlood - 04-Jun-2007 at 17:05

Originally posted by Anton BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means �to fight� GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means �head, leader� ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning �dawn� PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning �right(s), to do� MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning �over joyful� DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning �little brothers� DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning �next to lake�, similar name attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages.

hahahahahha where you found those names that are illyrians?...lol how try fyroms to birth imagine words.

Batina is not but Baton and mean albanian and is albanian name, funny you have alot illyrian names and tribes, illyrian mithology ect. and all mean albanian.

look how artificial nation try to birth imagine theory and try to fantasy their misery people .

I later will continue about you write, dont worry

Dude, I didn't write the post that you claim I wrote. What's wrong with you?

and you can find alot map of indo-europeans and you must not take seriously, look some diffirent maps from linguistic europeans:

http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/tree.gif
http://www.a-website.org/mnemosyne/arrange/pics/hierarchy/language_tree.gif
http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html
http://home.online.no/~bmatos/artimages/ACFPCAr4ayDW.jpg
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/43/800px-IndoEuropeanTreeA.svg.png

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/atree.html
http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/IndEurTABLE.html
http://berclo.net/page03/03en-ind-eur-lang.html




http://home.online.no/~bmatos/artimages/ACFPCAr4ayDW.jpg

Goddodin,

Originally posted by GoldenBlood Anton very sorry about your quote I was responce Maqedon not you.

Originally posted by feanor11985 Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to slavic. OMG! How someone who claim that knows history can write such rubish?! From 7th century till recently allmost all of the Albania and Kosovo and Metohija had slavic names of cities and settlements. Still we have slavic names to some villages and small settlements in nortern Albania. I dont even want to speak about history of Kosovo and Metohija with men who came from the mountain 100 years ago and claims that Serbs are invaders. History dont know albanians till 19th century. That is the nation that was created in the mountains and woods from barbarians not Ilirians.

Originally posted by Magedon This post is in response to the conglomerate of information below that is supposed to represent the modern Albanian claim to an anceint Illyrian heritage. Quote: Not many illyrian words were ever written that why there is so much mystery over the Language- these are some words that have been found in old latin and greek writings ect... Illyrian-Albanian ren -- re dard--dardhë toka--tokë las--lesh mal--mal vasa--vashë ves--vesh cuza-cucë nat--natë ara--arrë frim--frymë ra--ra caj--qaj nis-nis roj--rroj leh--lind (lehem in Geg) venedi--vendi hyll--yll bardi-bardhë fimia-fëmijë lissius-lisi bur, buris ‘man’ [Alb. burrë ‘man’] datan (datas) ‘place, settlement’ [Alb. datë ‘place, settlement] drenis ‘deer’ [Alb. dre, dreni ‘deer’] ermas ‘fierce, mad’ [Alb. jerm ‘furious, mad’] mezéna ‘a horseman’ [Alb. mes, mezi ‘stallion’, Roman. (substrat) mînz ‘stallion’] pupa ‘hill’ [Alb. pupë ‘hill’] rera ‘stones, stony ground’ (from an earlier *lera) [Alb. lerë, -a ‘stones, fallen stones’] titha ‘light, radiance’ [morning drita(ë) ‘light, day’, Alb. ditë ‘day’] Quote: There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian. The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf. Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps, which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands". Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root *albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name of England. The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of Ptolemy. Albanopolis of the Albani is a place located on the map of Ptolemy and also named on an ancient family epitaph at Scupi (near Skopje) , which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania. Arbanon is likely to be the name of a district - the plain of the Mat has been suggested - rather than a particular place. An indication of movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in the distribution of place-names ending in -esh that appears to derive from the latin -enisis or -esis, between the Shkumbin and the Mat rivers, with a concentration between Elbasan and Kruja. The term "Albanoi" may have been slowly spread to other Illyrian tribes until its usage became universal among all the Albanian people. According to the Albanian scholar Faïk bey Konitza, the term "Albania" did not displace "Illyria" completely until the end of the fourteenth century. The word "Alba" or "Arba" seems to be connected with the town Arba (modern Rab, Croatia), in prehistoric times inhabited by the semi-Illyrian Liburnians, first mentioned in 360 BC. Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words "Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano. We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnenas' account (Alexiad 4) of the troubles in that region caused by the Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118). In the History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. The Italo-Albanians and the Albanian minorities still present in Greece have been known by different names over time: Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbreshë, Arbëreshë. There seems to be no doubt that the root alb- or arb- is earlier than shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. The Albanian name of the country, Shqipëria, translates into English as "Land of the Eagles", hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem, and because of the large presence of these animals in the mountainous zones of Albania. Albanian names, like all nouns, appear under two forms "indefinite" and "definite". Hence Tiranë/Tirana, Krujë/Kruja, Elbasan/Elbasani, Durrës/Durrësi… The definite form is the equivalent of adding the article "the" in front of the noun. The common scholarly usage is to mention feminine names in the definite form, while the masculine are mentioned in the indefinite: Tirana, Kruja, Elbasan, Durrës, etc. But it is not always the case. Since Albanian territories have long been under foreign rule, historical documents may mention Albanian place-names in their Greek, Latin, Italian (Venetian), Turkish, Slavic, or even French versions. For instance, Durrës has been called Dyrrachion, Dyrrachium, Durazzo, Draç, Drac and Duras. Another source of confusion from historical sources may come from a transformation of "-n-" into "-r-", called "rhotacism", which took place in the Southern (Tosk) dialects and prevails in the literary language. Hence, the Greek/Latin "Avlona" which gave the Italian Valona" is now "Vlora". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our earliest mentioning is in the 200 Anno Domini - 4 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. They are mentioned as Albanoi, which is thought to mean 'white' - ironically, the Illyrian name for the tribe was parthini, and the first part -parth resembles our modern word -bardh, meaning precisely white, whereas the suffix -ini resembles our suffix -inj, defining the word as smth plural, i.e. Parthians, Parthinj. That we're an autochtonous nation in the Balkans is not even disputed among prominent Serb intellectuals and historians. The only dispute is whether we're Illyrian or Thracian, which in relation to our autochtony in Kosova (ancient Dardania) is irrelevant, since ancient Kosova was home to both Illyrians as well as Thracians, as is confirmed by ancient toponyms. But whilst Serb and Bulgarian historians have advocated a Thracian or/and Dacian origins of our people, most others have supported the Illyrian thesis, to the point where now only Serbs seem to favor the Thracian alternative. The Croat historian and Illyrologist Aleksandar Stipcevic formulates himself rather well when he states following; Quote: The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e. increasingly indisputable. And this ... Quote: Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian. Source Here's one Serbian document mentioning us in the 12th century, an extract from the Dusanova Zakonik; Quote: A brawl between villages, fifty perpers, (one perper was worth six gold francs); but between Vlachs and Albanians, one hundred perpers. Here are some more quotes; Quote: In the II Century BC, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, Ptolemy drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolisi (located south of Durrës), from which the Albanians were later on to be identified by the world. Quote: The first mention of Albanians in the region corresponding to modern Albania is as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Commenas account of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1110) by the Normans. (The Alexiad The Alexiad is a book written around the year 1148 by the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, the daughter of Emperor Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages.... Quote: In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Quote: 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language). Link Our first mentioning is in the 2th century AD, four centuries before the Serb arrival in the Balkans. It's from that Illyrian tribe (the Albanoi) we received our ethnonym. They were mentioned by the Greek geographer Ptolemy Claudius of Alexandria, in his work Geographia, as situated near the modern capital Tirana; Our own medieval term for ourselves wasn't Albanian with the letter 'l', but Arberesh or Arberor or Arban, with 'r', from whence the Slav term 'Arbanas' and Greek term 'Arvanites' came from, when they referred to us. This name stems also from the Illyrian era; Quote: In the II Century BC, in the History of the World, written by Polybius, there is mention of a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai. This mention of us is in the IIth century BC - 8 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. I It doesn't end there though; Quote: In the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses. The first century Anno Domini - five centuries before the Serbs' arrival. Replace the letter 'o' with 'a' and you'll get (*surprise* *surprise*) Albonenses or Albanenses!!! And finally; Quote: In the II Century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city. Apart from the fact that this nice little list of shiptar �proofs� seems to repeat itself about a dozen times in the hope of making it seem that there is more evidence than there really is, many parts are irrelevant and do not even make sense. First of all, recent scholars, the few that they are, only make an �Albanian� connection to Alexander based on the artificial Illyro-Albanian link. The facts are much clearer, neither Alexander nor ancient Macedonia are linked to Shiptars. Whatsmore, these so-called Illyrian-shiptar cognate words have been posted a billion times on the net in nearly the exact same order each time, would any of our local shiptari care to provide a source for them once and for all? Or is this too much to ask for? The emendation of some of the words are inaccurate and unfounded, many others are just guesses based on the similarity of the word however not the meaning, while others still are clearly Thracian words as compared to Illyrian. You want to see real Illyrian words? John Wilkes wrote a detailed book on the Illyrians, and yes he does mention the Albanians� claim to be Illyrians, as he mentions the same about Slovenes and Croats, and he points out the evidence for and against of each. Unfortunately, he seems to be a bit biased in favour of the shiptar cause, and rather blind to the many obvious Illyro-Slavic cognates. Nevertheless, here is a short list of some real Illyrian words as cited by Wilkes, which have been recorded from various archaeological finds such as tablet inscriptions, grave stones, etc. You tell me, do they look Slavic or Shiptaric? BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means �to fight� GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means �head, leader� ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning �dawn� PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning �right(s), to do� MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning �over joyful� DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning �little brothers� DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning �next to lake�, similar name attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages. 2,500 years later, and still nearly the exact same words. It is not the magnitude of Illyro-shiptar word links that gives the shiptar kind the right to unjustly claim an Illyrian heritage, because such a magnitude is not in existence, but rather, it is the vague Satem connection which incidentally can link Illyrian to any other Satem language in the Indo-European sphere. However, take the below into consideration: Illyrian is more often considered a centum language, while Albanian is a satem language. The identification of Illyrian as a centum language is widely but not unanimously accepted, although it is generally admitted that from what remains of the language, centum examples appear to greatly outnumber satem examples. One of the few satem examples in Illyrian appears to be Osseriates, probably from PIE *eghero-, "lake". So, according to the above, Osseriate is a Satem example. Osseriates stems from the Dassarite, who were a pure Illyrian tribe located next to the Ohrid Ezero, and the name of this tribe has a perfect match in Slavic. So given the fact that this significantly points towards a Satem origin for the Illyrians, it strengthens the Slavic case at the same time for the word Ezero means lake only in the Slavic languages, including of course, Illyrian. And, prior to the usual, �slavs adopted the words when they came to the Balkans�, think about how and why the Russians and Ukrainians also use the exact same words with the exact same meaning. Scholars such as I. I. Russu state that a common linguistic branch between Thracian and Illyrian is probable, while Sorin Paliga stated: "According to the available data, we may surmise that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at the other." Or in other words, like Macedonian and Croatian. Regarding the word �Alban�, this is a pure Latin word which may have been shared by Illyrians, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the shiptar language. �Alba� in Latin means white, in shiptaric it is said as �Bardhe�, anybody living in the region was an �Albanian�, the place itself is historically connected to Montenegro, the former meaning �White Mountain�, the latter �Black Mountain�, both in Latin. Michael Attaliates speaks of the Albani and Arbani as two different people and Anna Comnena does not state that the Arbanitae are an Illyrian tribe even though she mentions the Illyrian region countless times. Furthermore, the terms Arbani and Albani are used as geographic descriptions, of people who come from a particular region but not necessarily a particular ethnos, at least not until some traces of sh*tparic writing first appear under the name of Arbereshe in the late middle ages. Another important fact also is that neither Alban nor Arban have any meaning in the shiptar language. Regarding the following; 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language). Lets us start by dismissing the falsity of some imaginary shiptaric �community� presiding within Dubrovnik, for nowhere and by no means whatsoever is this absurdity corroborated. Where are the shiptaric placenames in Dubrovnik? Where are they in Dalmatia? In the rest of Illyria? Is it feasible to believe that Slavs can rename 90% of the Balkans within 200 years yet the shiptari with their so-called 3,000 year Illyrian heritage cannot even keep one in the bulk of their regions? Of course not. The reference to an Albanian langauge could just as easily be for a Slavic or Vlach dialect considering the geographic proximity, it is too vague to determine definitively. Regarding the word �Shqiptar�, when material such as �a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions� is cited, a statement made by none other than Wilkes himself, it should not be taken for granted, because it is a fact that Georgija Kastriot did not even know the word �Shqiptar� and never referred to himself as such. The flag and hence your name �Shqpitar� derive from the fact that your people were once a part of the East Roman flock, it is an Orthodox symbol, �people of the eagle�, the origins of it are more than obvious. The Albanian region itself had a high concentration of Slavic-speakers, and the overwhelming amount of Slavic placenames in the area is testament to this, as an example check the following Slavic placenames in Albania: Bishnice, Bitincke, Boboshtice, Bolene, Borove, Brataj, Bujan, Bushtrice, Cerkovice, Cerkovine, Corovode, Dhrovjan, Divjake, Dragobi, Dragot, Drenove, Gjorice, Golaj, Goranxi, Gostil, Gostime, Gostivisht, Gracen, Gradishte, Gumenice, Kepenek, Koplik Kosine, Kraste, Kuc, Kukes, Lapanj, Lepushe, Leshnice, Leskovik, Libohove, Livadhe, Lubonje, Lushnje, Malaj, Mavrove, Muzine, Novosele, Ogren, Ploce, Podgorie, Pogradec, Pojan, Polene, Progonat, Rade, Radomire, Roskovec, Rreshen, Rrogozine, Rusan, Selce, Selenice, Shishtavec, Sinice, Skore, Slabinje, Sllatine, Sohodoll, Sopik, Stenje, Stravaj, Strelce, Tepelene, Tropoje, Uznove, Vajze, Vane, Velce, Velipoje, Verdove, Vermik, Vidhas, Vjeter, Vodice, Vrine, Zagore, Zapod. Where are the shiptar placenames in Croatia and Bosnia? Nowhere to be found. How can the shiptari be Illyrians when they knew nothing of the name until the 19th century? They simple could not have been and indeed are not Illyrians. If Parthini is really from Bardhe(white), yet shiptari like to claim Bardylus as from the same source, there is an obvious error for it should read as either Bardini or Pathylus, this cannot be reconciled. There is no historical memory amongst the shiptari themselves with regard to being Illyrian, the first person to claim that the shiptari descend from the Illyrians was the Austrian George Hahn in his work �Albanesische Studien�, which, coincidently accompanied by the new Slavic migration theory formed the basis of Hapsburg policy towards the Balkans. Much like the modern Greeks, the modern Albanians relied on the west to draw up and inform them of �their� history. A question that is repeatedly asked is where were the so-called shiptari when Croats, Bosnians, Serbs and Slovenes were claiming to be Illyrians in the 19th century? They were nowhere to be found, it wasn�t an issue for them because not one of them even knew what an Illyrian was let alone to claim a heritage from them. On the flip side, the Illyrian heritage has a long history in the memory of the western Balkan Slavs, as is evidenced in various documents and tribal insignia from at least the early 1600�s, indeed, for many centuries the only designation used by Croats for their language was simply �Illyrian�. Check the following sources: 1604 - Institutiones linguae Illyricae - Bartol Ka�ic. 1699 - Talijansko Ilirsko Latinski Rjecnik - Ivan Tanzlingher-Zanotti. 1700 - Lexicon Latino-Illyricum - Pavao Vitezovic. 1715 - Dictionarium Latino-Illiricum - Djuro Matija�evic. 1728 - Dizionario Italiano-Latino-Illirico cui si premettono alcuni avvertimenti per inscrivere e con facilita maggiore leggere le voci illiriche scritte con caratteri italiani, ed anche una breve grammatica per apprendere ... la lingua illirica - Ardelio della Bella. 1730 - Vocabolario italiano-illirico -Lovro Cekinic. 1740 - Gazophylacium, seu Latino-Illyricorum onomatum aerarium - Ivan Belostenec. 1742 - Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica - Andrija Jambresic. 1760 - Rjecnik talijansko-ilirski - Mato Kla�ic. 1772 - Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum - Adam Patacic. 1801 - Lexicon Latino-Italico-Illyricum - Joakim Stulli. 1802 - Ricoslovnik ilirickoga, italijanskoga i nimackoga jezika - Josip Voltic. 1842 - Njemacko�ilirski slovar - Josip U�arevic. 1858 - Riecnik ilirsko-talianski - Dragutin Antun Parcic. Long before the false shiptar claim was ever conjured. Regarding the shiptar claim to the Thracians, the language itself is the biggest proof that there is no connection. Many Thracian placenames are made up of two parts which are joined together, for example, �dava, deva� was a common suffix and meant �town� in Thracian, thus there existed the town of Pulpudeva, the Slavic similarity in respect to the common name suffix of �ev, ov, ovo, evo, ova, eva� cannot go unnoticed. Pulp(u) must have been a local or slang way of saying Phillip as Pulpudeva (Phillip city) is Phillipopolis, today Plovdiv. In the Slavic language the same principle can be applied when naming a city, for example Tetovo, Kosovo, and Belgrade (White city), Stalingrad (Stalin city). In modern Albanian however this is not possible for one could not say 'Stalinqytet' if they follow the modern Albanian language principles, it would have to be said as 'Qytet i Stalin', hence Albanian could not have descended from the Thracian language due this difference in structure. The glossary below clearly shows the diversity of the modern Albanian language and the dominant influences in it. Observe the words, many of them critical to a language and all of them are loans into the shiptaric language, from Ottoman, Persian, Latin and Slavic. The male kinship terms and those that imply strength are almost exclusively Ottoman-Persian, the marine terms and female kinship terms are almost exclusively Latin, while the Slavic words are mostly related to verbs. That in itself says a lot in regards to the various and dominant elements in the modern Albanian language and ethnos, and in which areas they were most significant. Ottoman-Persian loans Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic) Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish) Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian) Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian) Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian) West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian) Latin Loans Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian) River = Lume; Fiume(Italian) Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian) Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian) Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian) Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian) Good = Mire; Mira(Italian) Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian) Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin) Child = Femije; related to above Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian) Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin) Slavic Loans Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic) Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic) Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic) Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic) Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic) Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic) Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic) South = Jug; Jug(Slavic) North = Veri; Sever(Slavic) In the Slavic language group the equivalents for all of the above Ottoman/Persian and Latin loans are native Slavic words, the number of loanwords in the modern Albanian language is extremely high as compared to Slavic. The names of some of the abovementioned modern Albanian scholars are Bogdano and Budi, names that have an obviously relation to Slavic. The suggestion that the so-called Illyrians hid in the mountains for a thousand years and then decided to descend from their mountains for �the first time� into the Roman-Slavic lands is absurd and should be dismissed for what it is. Illyrians and Thracians were related peoples, today�s Balkan Slavs are mainly their descendants. Courtesy from the autor of this text - Soldier of Macedon

Originally posted by GoldenBlood you serbs nomad can't argument just crying, you like Kosova you occupied and Vojvodina, Montenegro ect., this is funny how slaves (serbs mean slaves) try to pretent on our lands. they even claim on italy/hungaria too because they were slaves there and have right to steal those land hoverer i can't debate with slaves nomad because they make me funny