Topic: The Albanian Dilema Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 16:04
Originally posted by Magedon
This post is in response to the conglomerate of
information below that is supposed to represent the modern Albanian
claim to an anceint Illyrian heritage.
Quote:
Not many illyrian words were ever written that why there is so much
mystery over the Language- these are some words that have been found in
old latin and greek writings ect...
Quote:
There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old
Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian.
The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city
Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf.
Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps,
which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands".
Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root
*albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name
of England.
The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian
tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of
Ptolemy. Albanopolis of the Albani is a place located on the map of Ptolemy
and also named on an ancient family epitaph at Scupi (near Skopje) , which
has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern
Albania. Arbanon is likely to be the name of a district - the plain of the
Mat has been suggested - rather than a particular place. An indication of
movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in
the distribution of place-names ending in -esh that appears to derive from
the latin -enisis or -esis, between the Shkumbin and the Mat rivers, with a
concentration between Elbasan and Kruja.
The term "Albanoi" may have been slowly spread to other Illyrian tribes
until its usage became universal among all the Albanian people. According to
the Albanian scholar Faïk bey Konitza, the term "Albania" did not displace
"Illyria" completely until the end of the fourteenth century. The word
"Alba" or "Arba" seems to be connected with the town Arba (modern Rab,
Croatia), in prehistoric times inhabited by the semi-Illyrian Liburnians,
first mentioned in 360 BC.
Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words
"Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine
rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated
the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of
many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano. We first
learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna
Comnenas' account (Alexiad 4) of the troubles in that region caused by the
Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118). In the
History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was
first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against
Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of
Dyrrachium. The Italo-Albanians and the Albanian minorities still present in
Greece have been known by different names over time: Arbënuer, Arbënor,
Arbëneshë, Arbreshë, Arbëreshë.
There seems to be no doubt that the root alb- or arb- is earlier than
shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name
which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. The Albanian name
of the country, Shqipëria, translates into English as "Land of the Eagles",
hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem, and because of
the large presence of these animals in the mountainous zones of Albania.
Albanian names, like all nouns, appear under two forms "indefinite" and
"definite". Hence Tiranë/Tirana, Krujë/Kruja, Elbasan/Elbasani,
Durrës/Durrësi… The definite form is the equivalent of adding the article
"the" in front of the noun. The common scholarly usage is to mention
feminine names in the definite form, while the masculine are mentioned in
the indefinite: Tirana, Kruja, Elbasan, Durrës, etc. But it is not always
the case.
Since Albanian territories have long been under foreign rule, historical
documents may mention Albanian place-names in their Greek, Latin, Italian
(Venetian), Turkish, Slavic, or even French versions. For instance, Durrës
has been called Dyrrachion, Dyrrachium, Durazzo, Draç, Drac and Duras.
Another source of confusion from historical sources may come from a
transformation of "-n-" into "-r-", called "rhotacism", which took place in
the Southern (Tosk) dialects and prevails in the literary language. Hence,
the Greek/Latin "Avlona" which gave the Italian Valona" is now "Vlora".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our earliest mentioning is in the 200 Anno Domini - 4 centuries before the
arrival of the Serbs. They are mentioned as Albanoi, which is thought to
mean 'white' - ironically, the Illyrian name for the tribe was parthini, and
the first part -parth resembles our modern word -bardh, meaning precisely
white, whereas the suffix -ini resembles our suffix -inj, defining the word
as smth plural, i.e. Parthians, Parthinj.
That we're an autochtonous nation in the Balkans is not even disputed among
prominent Serb intellectuals and historians. The only dispute is whether
we're Illyrian or Thracian, which in relation to our autochtony in Kosova
(ancient Dardania) is irrelevant, since ancient Kosova was home to both
Illyrians as well as Thracians, as is confirmed by ancient toponyms. But
whilst Serb and Bulgarian historians have advocated a Thracian or/and Dacian
origins of our people, most others have supported the Illyrian thesis, to
the point where now only Serbs seem to favor the Thracian alternative. The
Croat historian and Illyrologist Aleksandar Stipcevic formulates himself
rather well when he states following;
Quote:
The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades
have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete
linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e.
increasingly indisputable.
And this ...
Quote:
Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into
consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines
has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny
the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian.
Source
Here's one Serbian document mentioning us in the 12th century, an extract
from the Dusanova Zakonik;
Quote:
A brawl between villages, fifty perpers, (one perper was worth six gold
francs); but between Vlachs and Albanians, one hundred perpers.
Here are some more quotes;
Quote:
In the II Century BC, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, Ptolemy
drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This
map shows the city of Albanopolisi (located south of Durrës), from which the
Albanians were later on to be identified by the world.
Quote:
The first mention of Albanians in the region corresponding to modern Albania
is as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Commenas account of the troubles in
that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1110)
by the Normans. (The Alexiad The Alexiad is a book written around the year
1148 by the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, the daughter of Emperor
Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire
during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most
important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages....
Quote:
In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates
was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against
Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of
Dyrrachium.
Quote:
1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed
for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del
Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who
appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem
clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the
mountains in the Albanian language).
Link
Our first mentioning is in the 2th century AD, four centuries before the
Serb arrival in the Balkans. It's from that Illyrian tribe (the Albanoi) we
received our ethnonym. They were mentioned by the Greek geographer Ptolemy
Claudius of Alexandria, in his work Geographia, as situated near the modern
capital Tirana;
Our own medieval term for ourselves wasn't Albanian with the letter 'l', but
Arberesh or Arberor or Arban, with 'r', from whence the Slav term 'Arbanas'
and Greek term 'Arvanites' came from, when they referred to us. This name
stems also from the Illyrian era;
Quote:
In the II Century BC, in the History of the World, written by Polybius,
there is mention of a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The
people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.
This mention of us is in the IIth century BC - 8 centuries before the
arrival of the Serbs. I It doesn't end there though;
Quote:
In the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder mentions an Illyrian tribe named
Olbonenses.
The first century Anno Domini - five centuries before the Serbs' arrival.
Replace the letter 'o' with 'a' and you'll get (*surprise* *surprise*)
Albonenses or Albanenses!!! And finally;
Quote:
In the II Century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from
Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of
Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës).
Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around
this city.
Apart from the fact that this nice little list of shiptar proofs
seems to repeat itself about a dozen times in the hope of making it
seem that there is more evidence than there really is, many parts are
irrelevant and do not even make sense.
First of all, recent scholars, the few that they are, only make an
Albanian connection to Alexander based on the artificial
Illyro-Albanian link. The facts are much clearer, neither Alexander nor
ancient Macedonia are linked to Shiptars. Whatsmore, these so-called
Illyrian-shiptar cognate words have been posted a billion times on the
net in nearly the exact same order each time, would any of our local
shiptari care to provide a source for them once and for all? Or is this
too much to ask for? The emendation of some of the words are inaccurate
and unfounded, many others are just guesses based on the similarity of
the word however not the meaning, while others still are clearly
Thracian words as compared to Illyrian. You want to see real Illyrian
words? John Wilkes wrote a detailed book on the Illyrians, and yes he
does mention the Albanians claim to be Illyrians, as he mentions the
same about Slovenes and Croats, and he points out the evidence for and
against of each. Unfortunately, he seems to be a bit biased in favour
of the shiptar cause, and rather blind to the many obvious
Illyro-Slavic cognates. Nevertheless, here is a short list of some real
Illyrian words as cited by Wilkes, which have been recorded from
various archaeological finds such as tablet inscriptions, grave stones,
etc. You tell me, do they look Slavic or Shiptaric?
BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name
BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means to fight
GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means head, leader
ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning dawn
PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning right(s), to do
MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name
MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name
VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name
PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning over joyful
DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name
BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning little brothers
DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian
tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning next to lake, similar name
attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also
linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages.
2,500 years later, and still nearly the exact same words.
It is not the magnitude of Illyro-shiptar word links that gives the
shiptar kind the right to unjustly claim an Illyrian heritage, because
such a magnitude is not in existence, but rather, it is the vague Satem
connection which incidentally can link Illyrian to any other Satem
language in the Indo-European sphere. However, take the below into
consideration:
Illyrian is more often considered a
centum language, while Albanian is a satem language. The identification
of Illyrian as a centum language is widely but not unanimously
accepted, although it is generally admitted that from what remains of
the language, centum examples appear to greatly outnumber satem
examples. One of the few satem examples in Illyrian appears to be
Osseriates, probably from PIE *eghero-, "lake".
So, according to the above, Osseriate is a Satem example. Osseriates
stems from the Dassarite, who were a pure Illyrian tribe located next
to the Ohrid Ezero, and the name of this tribe has a perfect match in
Slavic. So given the fact that this significantly points towards a
Satem origin for the Illyrians, it strengthens the Slavic case at the
same time for the word Ezero means lake only in the Slavic languages,
including of course, Illyrian. And, prior to the usual, slavs adopted
the words when they came to the Balkans, think about how and why the
Russians and Ukrainians also use the exact same words with the exact
same meaning. Scholars such as I. I. Russu state that a common
linguistic branch between Thracian and Illyrian is probable, while
Sorin Paliga stated: "According to the available data, we may surmise
that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like
Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at
the other." Or in other words, like Macedonian and Croatian.
Regarding the word Alban, this is a pure Latin word which may have
been shared by Illyrians, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the
shiptar language. Alba in Latin means white, in shiptaric it is said
as Bardhe, anybody living in the region was an Albanian, the place
itself is historically connected to Montenegro, the former meaning
White Mountain, the latter Black Mountain, both in Latin. Michael
Attaliates speaks of the Albani and Arbani as two different people and
Anna Comnena does not state that the Arbanitae are an Illyrian tribe
even though she mentions the Illyrian region countless times.
Furthermore, the terms Arbani and Albani are used as geographic
descriptions, of people who come from a particular region but not
necessarily a particular ethnos, at least not until some traces of
sh*tparic writing first appear under the name of Arbereshe in the late
middle ages. Another important fact also is that neither Alban nor
Arban have any meaning in the shiptar language.
Regarding the following;
1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed
for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del
Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who
appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem
clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the
mountains in the Albanian language).
Lets us start by dismissing the falsity of some imaginary shiptaric
community presiding within Dubrovnik, for nowhere and by no means
whatsoever is this absurdity corroborated. Where are the shiptaric
placenames in Dubrovnik? Where are they in Dalmatia? In the rest of
Illyria? Is it feasible to believe that Slavs can rename 90% of the
Balkans within 200 years yet the shiptari with their so-called 3,000
year Illyrian heritage cannot even keep one in the bulk of their
regions? Of course not. The reference to an Albanian langauge could
just as easily be for a Slavic or Vlach dialect considering the
geographic proximity, it is too vague to determine definitively.
Regarding the word Shqiptar, when material such as a name which
appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions is cited, a
statement made by none other than Wilkes himself, it should not be
taken for granted, because it is a fact that Georgija Kastriot did not
even know the word Shqiptar and never referred to himself as such.
The flag and hence your name Shqpitar derive from the fact that your
people were once a part of the East Roman flock, it is an Orthodox
symbol, people of the eagle, the origins of it are more than obvious.
The Albanian region itself had a high concentration of Slavic-speakers,
and the overwhelming amount of Slavic placenames in the area is
testament to this, as an example check the following Slavic placenames
in Albania:
Bishnice, Bitincke, Boboshtice,
Bolene, Borove, Brataj, Bujan, Bushtrice, Cerkovice, Cerkovine,
Corovode, Dhrovjan, Divjake, Dragobi, Dragot, Drenove, Gjorice, Golaj,
Goranxi, Gostil, Gostime, Gostivisht, Gracen, Gradishte, Gumenice,
Kepenek, Koplik
Kosine, Kraste, Kuc, Kukes, Lapanj, Lepushe, Leshnice, Leskovik,
Libohove, Livadhe, Lubonje, Lushnje, Malaj, Mavrove, Muzine, Novosele,
Ogren, Ploce, Podgorie, Pogradec, Pojan, Polene, Progonat, Rade,
Radomire, Roskovec, Rreshen, Rrogozine, Rusan, Selce, Selenice,
Shishtavec, Sinice, Skore, Slabinje, Sllatine, Sohodoll, Sopik, Stenje,
Stravaj, Strelce, Tepelene, Tropoje, Uznove, Vajze, Vane, Velce,
Velipoje, Verdove, Vermik, Vidhas, Vjeter, Vodice, Vrine, Zagore,
Zapod.
Where are the shiptar placenames in Croatia and Bosnia? Nowhere to be
found. How can the shiptari be Illyrians when they knew nothing of the
name until the 19th century? They simple could not have been and indeed
are not Illyrians.
If Parthini is really from Bardhe(white), yet shiptari like to
claim Bardylus as from the same source, there is an obvious error for
it should read as either Bardini or Pathylus, this cannot be
reconciled.
There is no historical memory amongst the shiptari themselves with
regard to being Illyrian, the first person to claim that the shiptari
descend from the Illyrians was the Austrian George Hahn in his work
Albanesische Studien, which, coincidently accompanied by the new
Slavic migration theory formed the basis of Hapsburg policy towards the
Balkans. Much like the modern Greeks, the modern Albanians relied on
the west to draw up and inform them of their history. A question that
is repeatedly asked is where were the so-called shiptari when Croats,
Bosnians, Serbs and Slovenes were claiming to be Illyrians in the 19th
century? They were nowhere to be found, it wasnt an issue for them
because not one of them even knew what an Illyrian was let alone to
claim a heritage from them. On the flip side, the Illyrian heritage has
a long history in the memory of the western Balkan Slavs, as is
evidenced in various documents and tribal insignia from at least the
early 1600s, indeed, for many centuries the only designation used by
Croats for their language was simply Illyrian.
Check the following sources:
1604 - Institutiones linguae Illyricae - Bartol Kaic.
1699 - Talijansko Ilirsko Latinski Rjecnik - Ivan Tanzlingher-Zanotti.
1700 - Lexicon Latino-Illyricum - Pavao Vitezovic.
1715 - Dictionarium Latino-Illiricum - Djuro Matijaevic.
1728 - Dizionario
Italiano-Latino-Illirico cui si premettono alcuni avvertimenti per
inscrivere e con facilita maggiore leggere le voci illiriche scritte
con caratteri italiani, ed anche una breve grammatica per apprendere
... la lingua illirica - Ardelio della Bella. 1730 - Vocabolario italiano-illirico -Lovro Cekinic.
1740 - Gazophylacium, seu Latino-Illyricorum onomatum aerarium - Ivan Belostenec.
1742 - Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica - Andrija Jambresic.
1760 - Rjecnik talijansko-ilirski - Mato Klaic.
1772 - Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum - Adam Patacic.
1801 - Lexicon Latino-Italico-Illyricum - Joakim Stulli.
1802 - Ricoslovnik ilirickoga, italijanskoga i nimackoga jezika - Josip Voltic.
1842 - Njemackoilirski slovar - Josip Uarevic.
1858 - Riecnik ilirsko-talianski - Dragutin Antun Parcic.
Long before the false shiptar claim was ever conjured.
Regarding the shiptar claim to the Thracians, the language itself is
the biggest proof that there is no connection. Many Thracian placenames
are made up of two parts which are joined together, for example, dava,
deva was a common suffix and meant town in Thracian, thus there
existed the town of Pulpudeva, the Slavic similarity in respect to the
common name suffix of ev, ov, ovo, evo, ova, eva cannot go unnoticed.
Pulp(u) must have been a local or slang way of saying Phillip as
Pulpudeva (Phillip city) is Phillipopolis, today Plovdiv. In the Slavic
language the same principle can be applied when naming a city, for
example Tetovo, Kosovo, and Belgrade (White city), Stalingrad (Stalin
city). In modern Albanian however this is not possible for one could
not say 'Stalinqytet' if they follow the modern Albanian language
principles, it would have to be said as 'Qytet i Stalin', hence
Albanian could not have descended from the Thracian language due this
difference in structure.
The glossary below clearly shows the diversity of the modern Albanian
language and the dominant influences in it. Observe the words, many of
them critical to a language and all of them are loans into the
shiptaric language, from Ottoman, Persian, Latin and Slavic. The male
kinship terms and those that imply strength are almost exclusively
Ottoman-Persian, the marine terms and female kinship terms are almost
exclusively Latin, while the Slavic words are mostly related to verbs.
That in itself says a lot in regards to the various and dominant
elements in the modern Albanian language and ethnos, and in which areas
they were most significant.
Ottoman-Persian loans
Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic)
Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish)
Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian)
Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian)
Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian)
West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian)
Latin Loans
Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian)
River = Lume; Fiume(Italian)
Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian)
Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian)
Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian)
Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian)
Good = Mire; Mira(Italian)
Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian)
Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin)
Child = Femije; related to above
Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian)
Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin)
Slavic Loans
Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic)
Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic)
Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic)
Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic)
Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic)
Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic)
Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic)
South = Jug; Jug(Slavic)
North = Veri; Sever(Slavic)
In the Slavic language group the equivalents for all of the above
Ottoman/Persian and Latin loans are native Slavic words, the number of
loanwords in the modern Albanian language is extremely high as compared
to Slavic.
The names of some of the abovementioned modern Albanian scholars are
Bogdano and Budi, names that have an obviously relation to Slavic.
The suggestion that the so-called Illyrians hid in the mountains
for a thousand years and then decided to descend from their mountains
for the first time into the Roman-Slavic lands is absurd and should
be dismissed for what it is. Illyrians and Thracians were related
peoples, todays Balkan Slavs are mainly their descendants.
Courtesy from the autor of this text - Soldier of Macedon
hyehyuehhe who talk fyromian funny, artificial nation without history and culture and who are you talking about most native people of balcan father Albanians? common with joke little with slaves of Ilirida-Shkupi
chicagogeorge you serb? :D of course you can't find link or scholar because...
those are joke words that writet one serbian member in balcan forum, those words are not common in caucasus hehehe.
and half of words are not albanian, this is just funny write about serbian member.
Albanian language seem only indo-european language that have not caucasus words influence, slavic language have alot influence.
No, I'm not a Serb. I came across those terms in another forum. I don't speak Albanian, so I wasn't sure if they are accurate, or if there is any relationship between them.
o-european language that have not caucasus words influence, slavic language have alot influence.
ohh i like to debate with funnies of Fy-romians (romas= gypsies)
First where are links that you claim for those jokes, link or scholar???
do you know that albanian language is one the oldesst language in world?, if those words are true why should be slavic? why should not be albanian where albanians are more olddest?
and how you want to pretend only for 20-30 words?, do you know kid that albanian langauge have native 60.000 words? and do you know that albanians language is one of 8 discrit language of Indo-European together with (Celtic, Latin, Baltit, Greek, Armenian, Germinan, Indic), you can find informacion about albanian and indo-european language in internet, one of them: http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html
ok i will learn you little father language
Originally posted by Maqedon
Ottoman-Persian loans
Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic)
wrong! Father is albanian is At and At (and you slavic adobtet in tata)
Originally posted by Maqedon
Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish)
hueheuhe Uncle is dajhe? hu? where you learned? uncle in albanian mean Xhaxhai and Mixh
Originally posted by Maqedon
Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian)
ahh joke
community in alb mean Mergat and Komunitet
I dont see any similary here and are you sure bashgah mean
Originally posted by Maqedon
Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian)
huheheuhe how mean in persian army? and where you see there similariy here?
Originally posted by Maqedon
Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian)
huehehuhe
behind in albanian mean prapa and mbrapa
Originally posted by Maqedon
West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian)
hueheuehe where you see here similarity?
Perendia is god in illyrian mithology and albanian mean god (also mean Zot too)
Originally posted by Maqedon
Latin Loans
Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian)
River = Lume; Fiume(Italian)
Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian)
Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian)
Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian)
Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian)
Good = Mire; Mira(Italian)
Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian)
Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin)
Child = Femije; related to above
Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian)
Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin)
where is your evidence that are latin those??
all those are right exp, Woman is Grua (not femeror)
and albanian language have 7-8% influence from latins, this is normal because illyrians/albanians were 900 years under Romans.
Originally posted by Maqedon
Slavic Loans
Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic)
omg why is slavic? have this word russian? or you fy-romanian adobtet?
in albanian wals also mean eci
Originally posted by Maqedon
Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic)
huehehe Row in albanian is rradh and grindje
Originally posted by Maqedon
Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic)
kick origanilly mean shqelm and zboj
Originally posted by Maqedon
Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic)
huehuehe Besa is 100% albanian word, i am prety sure that slavic have not this word and if have they adobtet from albanians.
Besa is giant story about albanians , but you ofcorse dont know because you are fyromian you are in imagine world.
Originally posted by Maqedon
Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic)
hu? how can be slavic when this word sound tipycal albanian/proto-balcanoid?
Originally posted by Maqedon
Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic)
I dont if is slavic, but here have little similarity, we in alb language have too dfrej, tallem and hajgare
Originally posted by Maqedon
Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic)
in alb language is els
Originally posted by Maqedon
South = Jug; Jug(Slavic)
yes jug mean south but why should be slavic?, i know that is latin word
Originally posted by Maqedon
North = Veri; Sever(Slavic)
where you see here similarity?
do you know that slavic lamguage has 15% caucasus influence??? and you have a big percent that adobtet words from others oldesst language???
BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name
BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means to fight
GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means head, leader
ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning dawn
PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning right(s), to do
MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name
MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name
VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name
PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning over joyful
DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name
BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning little brothers
DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian
tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning next to lake, similar name
attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also
linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages.
hahahahahha where you found those names that are illyrians?...lol how try fyroms to birth imagine words.
Batina is not but Baton and mean albanian and is albanian name, funny you have alot illyrian names and tribes, illyrian mithology ect. and all mean albanian.
look how artificial nation try to birth imagine theory and try to fantasy their misery people .
One major problem linking the Albanian language with ancient Illyrian is the fact that Albanian is a Satem language and Illyrian is though to being a Centum language. One cannot descend from the other.
Are there any theories as to how they still may be linked?
One major problem linking the Albanian language with ancient Illyrian is the fact that Albanian is a Satem language and Illyrian is though to being a Centum language. One cannot descend from the other.
Are there any theories as to how they still may be linked?
they clasifiadet very wrongly and based on territorialy and numbers (while albanian language is close with Centum)
Language-tree divergence times support the Anatolian theory of Indo-European origin
Russell D. Gray & Quentin D. Atkinson
Department of Psychology, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1020, New Zealand
"The consensus tree also reflects traditional uncertainties in the
relationships between the major Indo-European language groups. For
instance, historical linguists have not resolved the position of the Albanian group and our results clearly reflect this uncertainty(1) (the posterior probability of the Albanian/Indo-Iranian group is only 0.36)."
I have observed that the Albanians 'Albanianize' slavic place names. In Kosovo, a United Nations map that reveals the Serbian names alongside the Albanian names, demonstrates your very good point. For example, Suva Reka in Slavic, becomes Suha Reka, in Albanian. Now if we follow this through logically, either Illyrian is in fact Slavic, or Slavic is in fact, Illyrian - because the Albanians, who are claiming to be descendants of the Illryians, are choosing Slavic placenames. What your point illustrates is that the Albanians DO NOT have names for these places - neither the towns, nor the villages, nor very, very importantly - the topography - such as rivers, mountains...etc. While Slavic speakers, have no memory of their ''arrival'', neither do the modern Albanians. The question them becomes, where are the authentic "Albanian'' names, if all they do is translate an original Slavic name into modern Albanian grammar. Perhaps an even more important question could be, assuming that these are true Albanian words, and therefore Illyrian - what are they doing in ALL slavic langauges, as far as Russia?
The most interesting accounts of place names, comes I find from travelogues, cartographers and adventurers - who during the 18th and 19th century - travelled through Albania and the region - only to cite one Slavic placename after another.
I have observed that the Albanians 'Albanianize' slavic place names. In Kosovo, a United Nations map that reveals the Serbian names alongside the Albanian names, demonstrates your very good point. For example, Suva Reka in Slavic, becomes Suha Reka, in Albanian. Now if we follow this through logically, either Illyrian is in fact Slavic, or Slavic is in fact, Illyrian - because the Albanians, who are claiming to be descendants of the Illryians, are choosing Slavic placenames. What your point illustrates is that the Albanians DO NOT have names for these places - neither the towns, nor the villages, nor very, very importantly - the topography - such as rivers, mountains...etc. While Slavic speakers, have no memory of their ''arrival'', neither do the modern Albanians. The question them becomes, where are the authentic "Albanian'' names, if all they do is translate an original Slavic name into modern Albanian grammar. Perhaps an even more important question could be, assuming that these are true Albanian words, and therefore Illyrian - what are they doing in ALL slavic langauges, as far as Russia?
The most interesting accounts of place names, comes I find from travelogues, cartographers and adventurers - who during the 18th and 19th century - travelled through Albania and the region - only to cite one Slavic placename after another.
bylazora (capital of ancient Paeonia)
do you see bylazora why you are funny?, have you idea about history or not?
Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to slavic.
and there have not Suha Reka but we call Theranda, original ancient name.
Look history cityes of central serbia and north serboia or south serbia...there were alot cities/villages latin/albanian/turkish/hungarian/vllach and all have been changed into slavic after XIX Ceuntry.
same did othomans like serbs where the rest balcan was under othoman they createt new place with turks names and some place changed in turkish.
Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under
Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to
slavic.
OMG!
How someone who claim that knows history can write such rubish?!
From 7th century till recently allmost all of the Albania and Kosovo and Metohija had slavic names of cities and settlements. Still we have slavic names to some villages and small settlements in nortern Albania. I dont even want to speak about history of Kosovo and Metohija with men who came from the mountain 100 years ago and claims that Serbs are invaders.
History dont know albanians till 19th century.
That is the nation that was created in the mountains and woods from barbarians not Ilirians.
Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to slavic.
OMG!
How someone who claim that knows history can write such rubish?!
From 7th century till recently allmost all of the Albania and Kosovo and Metohija had slavic names of cities and settlements. Still we have slavic names to some villages and small settlements in nortern Albania. I dont even want to speak about history of Kosovo and Metohija with men who came from the mountain 100 years ago and claims that Serbs are invaders.
History dont know albanians till 19th century.
That is the nation that was created in the mountains and woods from barbarians not Ilirians.
Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under
Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to
slavic.
OMG!
How someone who claim that knows history can write such rubish?!
From 7th century till recently allmost all of the Albania and Kosovo and Metohija had slavic names of cities and settlements. Still we have slavic names to some villages and small settlements in nortern Albania. I dont even want to speak about history of Kosovo and Metohija with men who came from the mountain 100 years ago and claims that Serbs are invaders.
History dont know albanians till 19th century.
That is the nation that was created in the mountains and woods from barbarians not Ilirians.
what funny, which city and town were slavic in 7th century? , example? who learned those imaghine your covic sasha, where is your evidence?
you serbs nomad can't argument just crying, you like Kosova you occupied and Vojvodina, Montenegro ect., this is funny how slaves (serbs mean slaves) try to pretent on our lands. they even claim on italy/hungaria too because they were slaves there and have right to steal those land
hoverer i can't debate with slaves nomad because they make me funny
This post is in response to the conglomerate of information below that is supposed to represent the modern Albanian claim to an anceint Illyrian heritage.
Quote:
Not many illyrian words were ever written that why there is so much mystery over the Language- these are some words that have been found in old latin and greek writings ect...
Quote: There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian. The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf.
Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps, which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands". Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root *albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name of England.
The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 AD, in a work of Ptolemy. Albanopolis of the Albani is a place located on the map of Ptolemy and also named on an ancient family epitaph at Scupi (near Skopje) , which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania. Arbanon is likely to be the name of a district - the plain of the Mat has been suggested - rather than a particular place. An indication of movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in the distribution of place-names ending in -esh that appears to derive from the latin -enisis or -esis, between the Shkumbin and the Mat rivers, with a concentration between Elbasan and Kruja.
The term "Albanoi" may have been slowly spread to other Illyrian tribes until its usage became universal among all the Albanian people. According to the Albanian scholar Faïk bey Konitza, the term "Albania" did not displace "Illyria" completely until the end of the fourteenth century. The word "Alba" or "Arba" seems to be connected with the town Arba (modern Rab, Croatia), in prehistoric times inhabited by the semi-Illyrian Liburnians, first mentioned in 360 BC.
Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words "Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano. We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnenas' account (Alexiad 4) of the troubles in that region caused by the Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118). In the History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. The Italo-Albanians and the Albanian minorities still present in Greece have been known by different names over time: Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbreshë, Arbëreshë.
There seems to be no doubt that the root alb- or arb- is earlier than shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. The Albanian name of the country, Shqipëria, translates into English as "Land of the Eagles", hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem, and because of the large presence of these animals in the mountainous zones of Albania.
Albanian names, like all nouns, appear under two forms "indefinite" and "definite". Hence Tiranë/Tirana, Krujë/Kruja, Elbasan/Elbasani, Durrës/Durrësi… The definite form is the equivalent of adding the article "the" in front of the noun. The common scholarly usage is to mention feminine names in the definite form, while the masculine are mentioned in the indefinite: Tirana, Kruja, Elbasan, Durrës, etc. But it is not always the case.
Since Albanian territories have long been under foreign rule, historical documents may mention Albanian place-names in their Greek, Latin, Italian (Venetian), Turkish, Slavic, or even French versions. For instance, Durrës has been called Dyrrachion, Dyrrachium, Durazzo, Draç, Drac and Duras.
Another source of confusion from historical sources may come from a transformation of "-n-" into "-r-", called "rhotacism", which took place in the Southern (Tosk) dialects and prevails in the literary language. Hence, the Greek/Latin "Avlona" which gave the Italian Valona" is now "Vlora". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our earliest mentioning is in the 200 Anno Domini - 4 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. They are mentioned as Albanoi, which is thought to mean 'white' - ironically, the Illyrian name for the tribe was parthini, and the first part -parth resembles our modern word -bardh, meaning precisely white, whereas the suffix -ini resembles our suffix -inj, defining the word as smth plural, i.e. Parthians, Parthinj.
That we're an autochtonous nation in the Balkans is not even disputed among prominent Serb intellectuals and historians. The only dispute is whether we're Illyrian or Thracian, which in relation to our autochtony in Kosova (ancient Dardania) is irrelevant, since ancient Kosova was home to both Illyrians as well as Thracians, as is confirmed by ancient toponyms. But whilst Serb and Bulgarian historians have advocated a Thracian or/and Dacian origins of our people, most others have supported the Illyrian thesis, to the point where now only Serbs seem to favor the Thracian alternative. The Croat historian and Illyrologist Aleksandar Stipcevic formulates himself rather well when he states following;
Quote: The result achieved by workers in different disciplines in recent decades have reduced the importance of the work that relied on now obsolete linguistc evidence, and have made the autochthony of the Albanians, i.e. increasingly indisputable.
And this ...
Quote: Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian.
Source
Here's one Serbian document mentioning us in the 12th century, an extract from the Dusanova Zakonik;
Quote: A brawl between villages, fifty perpers, (one perper was worth six gold francs); but between Vlachs and Albanians, one hundred perpers.
Here are some more quotes;
Quote: In the II Century BC, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, Ptolemy drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolisi (located south of Durrës), from which the Albanians were later on to be identified by the world.
Quote: The first mention of Albanians in the region corresponding to modern Albania is as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Commenas account of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1110) by the Normans. (The Alexiad The Alexiad is a book written around the year 1148 by the Byzantine historian Anna Comnena, the daughter of Emperor Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages....
Quote: In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the "Albanoi" as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.
Quote: 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language).
Link
Our first mentioning is in the 2th century AD, four centuries before the Serb arrival in the Balkans. It's from that Illyrian tribe (the Albanoi) we received our ethnonym. They were mentioned by the Greek geographer Ptolemy Claudius of Alexandria, in his work Geographia, as situated near the modern capital Tirana;
Our own medieval term for ourselves wasn't Albanian with the letter 'l', but Arberesh or Arberor or Arban, with 'r', from whence the Slav term 'Arbanas' and Greek term 'Arvanites' came from, when they referred to us. This name stems also from the Illyrian era;
Quote: In the II Century BC, in the History of the World, written by Polybius, there is mention of a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.
This mention of us is in the IIth century BC - 8 centuries before the arrival of the Serbs. I It doesn't end there though;
Quote: In the I Century AD, Pliny the Elder mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.
The first century Anno Domini - five centuries before the Serbs' arrival. Replace the letter 'o' with 'a' and you'll get (*surprise* *surprise*) Albonenses or Albanenses!!! And finally;
Quote: In the II Century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.
Apart from the fact that this nice little list of shiptar proofs seems to repeat itself about a dozen times in the hope of making it seem that there is more evidence than there really is, many parts are irrelevant and do not even make sense.
First of all, recent scholars, the few that they are, only make an Albanian connection to Alexander based on the artificial Illyro-Albanian link. The facts are much clearer, neither Alexander nor ancient Macedonia are linked to Shiptars. Whatsmore, these so-called Illyrian-shiptar cognate words have been posted a billion times on the net in nearly the exact same order each time, would any of our local shiptari care to provide a source for them once and for all? Or is this too much to ask for? The emendation of some of the words are inaccurate and unfounded, many others are just guesses based on the similarity of the word however not the meaning, while others still are clearly Thracian words as compared to Illyrian. You want to see real Illyrian words? John Wilkes wrote a detailed book on the Illyrians, and yes he does mention the Albanians claim to be Illyrians, as he mentions the same about Slovenes and Croats, and he points out the evidence for and against of each. Unfortunately, he seems to be a bit biased in favour of the shiptar cause, and rather blind to the many obvious Illyro-Slavic cognates. Nevertheless, here is a short list of some real Illyrian words as cited by Wilkes, which have been recorded from various archaeological finds such as tablet inscriptions, grave stones, etc. You tell me, do they look Slavic or Shiptaric?
BILLENA; BILJANA, Slavic name BORIA; BORIS, BORI, Slavic name, also means to fight GLAVUS; GLAVU, GLAVAN, GLAVA, Slavic surname, also means head, leader ZORATA; ZORA, ZORAN, ZORATA, Slavic word and name, meaning dawn PRAVAIUS; PRAVA, PRAVAI, PRAVUVAI, Slavic word, meaning right(s), to do MARICA; MARICA, Slavic name, Macedonian dance and river name MENDA; MENDO, MENDA, common Macedonian name VERICA; VERICA, VERA, Slavic name PRORADUS; PRERADE, Slavic word, meaning over joyful DUSSONA; DUSHAN, DUSHANA, common Slavic name BATINA; BATINA, Macedonian word, meaning little brothers DASARITAE; DO EZERITE, Illyrian tribe next to Ohrid Ezero, meaning next to lake, similar name attributed to Illyrian tribe in Montenegro located beside a lake, also linked to the Ezeritae who invaded Peloponnese in the middle ages.
2,500 years later, and still nearly the exact same words.
It is not the magnitude of Illyro-shiptar word links that gives the shiptar kind the right to unjustly claim an Illyrian heritage, because such a magnitude is not in existence, but rather, it is the vague Satem connection which incidentally can link Illyrian to any other Satem language in the Indo-European sphere. However, take the below into consideration: Illyrian is more often considered a centum language, while Albanian is a satem language. The identification of Illyrian as a centum language is widely but not unanimously accepted, although it is generally admitted that from what remains of the language, centum examples appear to greatly outnumber satem examples. One of the few satem examples in Illyrian appears to be Osseriates, probably from PIE *eghero-, "lake".
So, according to the above, Osseriate is a Satem example. Osseriates stems from the Dassarite, who were a pure Illyrian tribe located next to the Ohrid Ezero, and the name of this tribe has a perfect match in Slavic. So given the fact that this significantly points towards a Satem origin for the Illyrians, it strengthens the Slavic case at the same time for the word Ezero means lake only in the Slavic languages, including of course, Illyrian. And, prior to the usual, slavs adopted the words when they came to the Balkans, think about how and why the Russians and Ukrainians also use the exact same words with the exact same meaning. Scholars such as I. I. Russu state that a common linguistic branch between Thracian and Illyrian is probable, while Sorin Paliga stated: "According to the available data, we may surmise that Thracian and Illyrian were mutually understandable, e.g. like Czech and Slovak, in one extreme, or like Spanish and Portuguese, at the other." Or in other words, like Macedonian and Croatian.
Regarding the word Alban, this is a pure Latin word which may have been shared by Illyrians, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the shiptar language. Alba in Latin means white, in shiptaric it is said as Bardhe, anybody living in the region was an Albanian, the place itself is historically connected to Montenegro, the former meaning White Mountain, the latter Black Mountain, both in Latin. Michael Attaliates speaks of the Albani and Arbani as two different people and Anna Comnena does not state that the Arbanitae are an Illyrian tribe even though she mentions the Illyrian region countless times. Furthermore, the terms Arbani and Albani are used as geographic descriptions, of people who come from a particular region but not necessarily a particular ethnos, at least not until some traces of sh*tparic writing first appear under the name of Arbereshe in the late middle ages. Another important fact also is that neither Alban nor Arban have any meaning in the shiptar language.
Regarding the following; 1285 in Dubrovnik (Ragusa) where a sizeable Albanian community had existed for some time. In the investigation of a robbery in the house of Petro del Volcio of Belena (now Prati), a certain Matthew, son of Mark of Mançe, who appears to have been witness to the crime, states: "Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language).
Lets us start by dismissing the falsity of some imaginary shiptaric community presiding within Dubrovnik, for nowhere and by no means whatsoever is this absurdity corroborated. Where are the shiptaric placenames in Dubrovnik? Where are they in Dalmatia? In the rest of Illyria? Is it feasible to believe that Slavs can rename 90% of the Balkans within 200 years yet the shiptari with their so-called 3,000 year Illyrian heritage cannot even keep one in the bulk of their regions? Of course not. The reference to an Albanian langauge could just as easily be for a Slavic or Vlach dialect considering the geographic proximity, it is too vague to determine definitively.
Regarding the word Shqiptar, when material such as a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions is cited, a statement made by none other than Wilkes himself, it should not be taken for granted, because it is a fact that Georgija Kastriot did not even know the word Shqiptar and never referred to himself as such. The flag and hence your name Shqpitar derive from the fact that your people were once a part of the East Roman flock, it is an Orthodox symbol, people of the eagle, the origins of it are more than obvious.
The Albanian region itself had a high concentration of Slavic-speakers, and the overwhelming amount of Slavic placenames in the area is testament to this, as an example check the following Slavic placenames in Albania: Bishnice, Bitincke, Boboshtice, Bolene, Borove, Brataj, Bujan, Bushtrice, Cerkovice, Cerkovine, Corovode, Dhrovjan, Divjake, Dragobi, Dragot, Drenove, Gjorice, Golaj, Goranxi, Gostil, Gostime, Gostivisht, Gracen, Gradishte, Gumenice, Kepenek, Koplik Kosine, Kraste, Kuc, Kukes, Lapanj, Lepushe, Leshnice, Leskovik, Libohove, Livadhe, Lubonje, Lushnje, Malaj, Mavrove, Muzine, Novosele, Ogren, Ploce, Podgorie, Pogradec, Pojan, Polene, Progonat, Rade, Radomire, Roskovec, Rreshen, Rrogozine, Rusan, Selce, Selenice, Shishtavec, Sinice, Skore, Slabinje, Sllatine, Sohodoll, Sopik, Stenje, Stravaj, Strelce, Tepelene, Tropoje, Uznove, Vajze, Vane, Velce, Velipoje, Verdove, Vermik, Vidhas, Vjeter, Vodice, Vrine, Zagore, Zapod.
Where are the shiptar placenames in Croatia and Bosnia? Nowhere to be found. How can the shiptari be Illyrians when they knew nothing of the name until the 19th century? They simple could not have been and indeed are not Illyrians.
If Parthini is really from Bardhe(white), yet shiptari like to claim Bardylus as from the same source, there is an obvious error for it should read as either Bardini or Pathylus, this cannot be reconciled.
There is no historical memory amongst the shiptari themselves with regard to being Illyrian, the first person to claim that the shiptari descend from the Illyrians was the Austrian George Hahn in his work Albanesische Studien, which, coincidently accompanied by the new Slavic migration theory formed the basis of Hapsburg policy towards the Balkans. Much like the modern Greeks, the modern Albanians relied on the west to draw up and inform them of their history. A question that is repeatedly asked is where were the so-called shiptari when Croats, Bosnians, Serbs and Slovenes were claiming to be Illyrians in the 19th century? They were nowhere to be found, it wasnt an issue for them because not one of them even knew what an Illyrian was let alone to claim a heritage from them. On the flip side, the Illyrian heritage has a long history in the memory of the western Balkan Slavs, as is evidenced in various documents and tribal insignia from at least the early 1600s, indeed, for many centuries the only designation used by Croats for their language was simply Illyrian.
Check the following sources: 1604 - Institutiones linguae Illyricae - Bartol Kaic. 1699 - Talijansko Ilirsko Latinski Rjecnik - Ivan Tanzlingher-Zanotti. 1700 - Lexicon Latino-Illyricum - Pavao Vitezovic. 1715 - Dictionarium Latino-Illiricum - Djuro Matijaevic. 1728 - Dizionario Italiano-Latino-Illirico cui si premettono alcuni avvertimenti per inscrivere e con facilita maggiore leggere le voci illiriche scritte con caratteri italiani, ed anche una breve grammatica per apprendere ... la lingua illirica - Ardelio della Bella. 1730 - Vocabolario italiano-illirico -Lovro Cekinic. 1740 - Gazophylacium, seu Latino-Illyricorum onomatum aerarium - Ivan Belostenec. 1742 - Lexicon latinum interpretatione illyrica, germanica et hungarica - Andrija Jambresic. 1760 - Rjecnik talijansko-ilirski - Mato Klaic. 1772 - Dictionarium latino-illyricum et germanicum - Adam Patacic. 1801 - Lexicon Latino-Italico-Illyricum - Joakim Stulli. 1802 - Ricoslovnik ilirickoga, italijanskoga i nimackoga jezika - Josip Voltic. 1842 - Njemackoilirski slovar - Josip Uarevic. 1858 - Riecnik ilirsko-talianski - Dragutin Antun Parcic.
Long before the false shiptar claim was ever conjured.
Regarding the shiptar claim to the Thracians, the language itself is the biggest proof that there is no connection. Many Thracian placenames are made up of two parts which are joined together, for example, dava, deva was a common suffix and meant town in Thracian, thus there existed the town of Pulpudeva, the Slavic similarity in respect to the common name suffix of ev, ov, ovo, evo, ova, eva cannot go unnoticed. Pulp(u) must have been a local or slang way of saying Phillip as Pulpudeva (Phillip city) is Phillipopolis, today Plovdiv. In the Slavic language the same principle can be applied when naming a city, for example Tetovo, Kosovo, and Belgrade (White city), Stalingrad (Stalin city). In modern Albanian however this is not possible for one could not say 'Stalinqytet' if they follow the modern Albanian language principles, it would have to be said as 'Qytet i Stalin', hence Albanian could not have descended from the Thracian language due this difference in structure.
The glossary below clearly shows the diversity of the modern Albanian language and the dominant influences in it. Observe the words, many of them critical to a language and all of them are loans into the shiptaric language, from Ottoman, Persian, Latin and Slavic. The male kinship terms and those that imply strength are almost exclusively Ottoman-Persian, the marine terms and female kinship terms are almost exclusively Latin, while the Slavic words are mostly related to verbs. That in itself says a lot in regards to the various and dominant elements in the modern Albanian language and ethnos, and in which areas they were most significant.
Ottoman-Persian loans Father = Baba; Baba(Turkish-Arabic) Uncle = Dajhe; Dayi(Turkish) Community = Bashke; Bashgah(Persian) Army = Ushtri; Ashire(tribe in Persian) Behind = Pas; Pas(Persian) West = Perendimi; Farangima(european or westernise in Persian)
Latin Loans Lake = Liquen; Lago(Italian) River = Lume; Fiume(Italian) Swim = Notoj; Nuoto(Italian) Fish = Peshk; Pesce(Italian) Fisherman = Peshkatar; Pescatore(Italian) Weapons = Arme; Arme(Italian) Good = Mire; Mira(Italian) Hard = Forte; Forti(Italian) Woman = Femeror; Femina(Latin) Child = Femije; related to above Sister = Moter; Morta(woman in Italian) Grandson = Nip; Nepos(Latin)
Slavic Loans Walk = Shetitje; Shetaj(Slavic) Row = Vozit; Vozi(Slavic) Kick = Goditje; Godi(Slavic) Pledge = Bese; Beseda(Slavic) Custom = Zakon; Zakon(Slavic) Fun = Zbavites; Zabava(Slavic) Key = Kych; Kluch(Slavic) South = Jug; Jug(Slavic) North = Veri; Sever(Slavic)
In the Slavic language group the equivalents for all of the above Ottoman/Persian and Latin loans are native Slavic words, the number of loanwords in the modern Albanian language is extremely high as compared to Slavic.
The names of some of the abovementioned modern Albanian scholars are Bogdano and Budi, names that have an obviously relation to Slavic.
The suggestion that the so-called Illyrians hid in the mountains for a thousand years and then decided to descend from their mountains for the first time into the Roman-Slavic lands is absurd and should be dismissed for what it is. Illyrians and Thracians were related peoples, todays Balkan Slavs are mainly their descendants.
Courtesy from the autor of this text - Soldier of Macedon
Interesting post. Genetic research done in Herzegovina along other locales shows a high degree of Illyrian blood in the gene pools of many Croat and Bosnian communities, I'm sure this is similar for Serb ones as well. Slavs were a minority tribe that took over, except unlike the Bulgars, the Slavs slavicized, and integrated the illyrians, and others living in their new domains.
On the ethnic composition of Albanians, its absurd to conclude that they sprung up in 1200, they have clear ties to the Illyrian tribes inhabitating the Western Balkans.
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Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:07
Originally posted by feanor11985
Of Course in Kosova can be some slavic place because Kosova was under
Serbian occupators and they changed from Albanian/latin/turkish to
slavic.
OMG!
How someone who claim that knows history can write such rubish?!
From 7th century till recently allmost all of the Albania and Kosovo and Metohija had slavic names of cities and settlements. Still we have slavic names to some villages and small settlements in nortern Albania. I dont even want to speak about history of Kosovo and Metohija with men who came from the mountain 100 years ago and claims that Serbs are invaders.
History dont know albanians till 19th century.
That is the nation that was created in the mountains and woods from barbarians not Ilirians.
hear we go agian.
State your position, better still be different and back it up. But do not make such rubbish remarks (my red) that will surely get you banned. I'll give you one chance from here. Consider this a first and only warning.
If you havent read it yet here is the Code of Conduct, it helps protect us all (including you) from such silly remarks
if your still confused where you went wrong here is a section you should read.
6. Nationalism, derogatory remarks to
national or ethnic groups, jingoism, bigotry, racism, political
propaganda. (see appendix below)
you serbs nomad can't argument just crying, you like Kosova you occupied and Vojvodina, Montenegro ect., this is funny how slaves (serbs mean slaves) try to pretent on our lands. they even claim on italy/hungaria too because they were slaves there and have right to steal those land
hoverer i can't debate with slaves nomad because they make me funny
Look like you and feanor11985 are much more close to each other...
GoldenBlood Serbs were not slaves, they are Slavs, a originally tribal-linguistic categorization, they are part of the South Slav groups. They were not slaves in Vojvodina, Kosovo, or Italy for that matter as a congolomerate, maybe some individual Serbs had been slaves here or there as that horrid practice had been still common in the post classical world. However, that aside, Serbs, that Slavic tribal affiliation did settle, and effectively take over Vojvodina, and Kosovo whether you like it or not. That is a historical fact, demeaning a whole people by denoting them as forced servants does not discredit that, only discredits your cause in this forum. Personal attacks are not going to solve this. Like I said in my previous post, Serbs have Illyrian ancestry as well, all South-Slav groups have some degree through intermixing, and through the assimilation of large numbers of Illyrian-Roman, and other groups of people in the South-Slav lands with the exception of groups of Vlachs, who are presumed to be the ancestors of Illyro-Romans. Serbs have as much a claim to that land as you do, they have lived there (ones that have lived there, and had been driven off in the past decades) for generations, they have based much of their culture, and mythology on that land, it is important to them on many rather deep bases, as is for the the Kosovar Albanians as well.
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