"Barbarian" in the Ancient Greek mind

To all persian friends  and others who  are sometimes offended by the term the ancient greeks used barbarian not in the context of evil,brutal but in the context of different.

Edited by olvios - 25-Apr-2007 at 15:24

I've heard the 'bar bar bar' theory is bollucks though, a more recent invention, though the original term was linked to differnces of languages and culture.
The idea can hardly be said to be a Greek invention though, otherising non-members of the tribe is beyond ancient, its positivly pre-historic. Greeks just gave some languages the word, Hollywood leather fetishes did the rest.

Yes i know , the bar bar theory is a bit  funny... I don't think that the word barbarian was used before the Persian wars... I don't know what kind of words -similar to the Greek "barbarian"- were used by other nations through history... I mean since antiquity, this is the only expression which describes the facts of a supposed lower culture.

Originally posted by olvios Barbarian, -on (a.) - [word for expression of sound of foreign language ]. Not Greek, foreigner, barbarian, the foreigners mainly the Medes and the Persians , barbaric, the barbarians, Barbaroomai   I become barbarian, Bebarbaromenos - - being inapprehensible, Barbarophone, - on, the one that speaks a foreign language, the one that does not speak Greek correctly. When it is used for Greeks as Spartans, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thessalians and other imply the use of Greek dialect minus Attica of (Athenians) or a cultural level lowest than that of Athenians. Usual offensive characterization of Athenians for the remainder Greeks. Depreciatory vilification between Greek nations.   Barbarize  , I speak as a barbarian (while I am Greek), I take part of barbarians "Medise" take the  Persian side , I violate the rules of Greek language, I make grammatical error,  barbarism , Grammatical error, mistaken use of Greek language, At a barbaric way, In the barbaric language.   Barbarofylos , barbarian in the race # non Greek    Philellene [ filos+E'llin ] Foreigner that loves Greece and the Greeks, Greek patriot panhellene (if only particular Homeland Then is philopatris) in the antiquity, Opposite.Mishellene=Greek Hater.   "Hellenicity" by Jonathan Hall Liddel, X. and Scott, R. Big Dictionary Greek languages, Greek publication A C.D.Hamilton's "Agesilaus and the Failure: of Spartan Hegemony (cornell University Press, 1991)

It means the above and not what you wish i would Claedy.

Hall Liddel, X. and Scott are gods in the knowledge of Ancient Greek.

Barbarophonoi - The linguistic factor

"Hellenicity" by Jonathan Hall, Page 111


BARBAROPHONOI: THE LINGUISTIC FACTOR

It is sometimes stated that the primary criterion in Hellenic self-definition was linguistic and that this is signalled by the fact that the term barbaros, which, from the fifth century especially, designates those who were not considered Hellenes, is onomatopoeic in its etymology, deriving from the incomprehensible babblings of non-Greek speakers. From there it is no great inferential leap to assume that the concept arose first in the colonial orbit where Greek-speakers were immediately confronted with alloglots. There are, however, some difficulties with this explanation.

In extant literature, the earliest attestation of the term would appear to be in the Catalogue of Trojans (Iliad 2.867), where the Karians are described as barbarophonoi ('of barbarian speech') - a compound adjective which ought to presume the existence of the noun barbaros. Yet many scholars are troubled by the fact that
(i) the occurrence is unique in the Homeric epics;
(ii) the noun barbaros and its cognates are not attested in literature again until the time of Anakreon (fr. 423 Page) in the later sixth century;
(iii) Thoukydides (1.3.3) seems not to have been aware that the term was employed by Homer; and
(iv) of all the populations with whom the Greeks came into contact the Karians were arguably the least alien.

This has led some to suggest that the term is a later interpolation. While this is a possibility, the fashionable tendency of scholars to excise from the Homeric epics any word, phrase or lines that appear out of place (an honourable tradition dating back at least as far as the second-century BC grammarian Aristarkhos of Samothrake) can often be taken to excess. Certainly it is methodologically incumbent upon those who employ Homeric material to exhaust alternative explanations before resorting to excision on the grounds of interpolation. The single attestation of the term prior to the later sixth century could conceivably be a matter of chance, while Thoukydides failure to note the occurrence of the term (unless due to carelessness) might simply indicate the quite reasonable supposition that several variants of the Homeric epics were still circulating in his own day.

It is not, however, certain that the term barbaros originally carried a linguistic connotation simply because it is found qualifying phone in the Iliad�s description of the Karians: in fact, one could argue that this quasi-tautologous qualification suggests otherwise. The notion that the word is onomatopoeic - first suggested by Strabo (14.2.28) � appears commonsensical but is from the linguistic perspective unfalsifiable, and Ernst Weidner (1913) already drew attention to the perils of accepting ancient etymologies. Noting that the Sumerian word barbaru simply means 'strange� or 'foreign�, he suggested that the term barbaros is in fact a loan-word. Indeed, of the three other attestations of the word prior to the end of the Archaic period, in only one case is the term unambiguously applied in a linguistic sense. It is Anakreon's invocation to Zeus to 'silence the solecian speech lest you utter barbarisms� (fr. 423 Page). By contrast, there is no clear linguistic connotation to the term in the pre-Sokratic philosopher Herakleitos5 maxim that 'men's eyes and ears are poor witnesses if they have barbarian souls' (fr. 107 Diels-Kranz), while Hekataios (if Strabo is quoting him verbatim) simply uses the term barbaroi to describe the pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece (i FGrHiK)). Given the relative familiarity of the Karians to the Greeks, it has been suggested that barbarophonoi in the Iliad signifies not those who spoke a non-Greek language but simply those who spoke Greek badly. It is, of course, a fact that the establishment of Greek foundations overseas produced a situation in which groups enculturated in entirely different linguistic traditions were confronted with one another. It is also the case that the Greeks were aware of linguistic differences. This is particularly true in the case of Attic comedy, where linguistic and even dialectal differences are capitalized upon for comic effect. In Aristophanes' Akharnians (94-110), the phony envoy of the Persian King, Pseudartabas, is made to utter an outlandish and seemingly unintelligible approximation of the Persian language, but in reality the play's main protagonist, Dikaiopolis, can in fact understand him and ultimately the emphasis of the scene is concerned less with the issue of intelligibility and more on articulating ethnic and cultural stereotypes - just as it is with scenes involving encounters between speakers of different dialects. There is also an awareness of linguistic differentiation in Attic tragedy, but here there are few if any hints of communicational difficulties between Greeks and non-Greeks; the same is true of the exchanges between Greeks and Trojans in the Iliad. Herodotos is similarly conscious of linguistic variety, but no impediments to communication are signalled in the accounts of the meetings of the Athenian Solon and the Lydian king Kroisos (1.30-33) or of the Egyptian Pharaoh Amasis and the Samian tyrant Polykrates (3.40-43). Interpreters (hermeneis) - usually non-Greek - are occasionally mentioned: thus Polykrates� brother Syloson communicated with the Persian king Dareios through interpreters; the Athenians seem to have managed to procure the services of an interpreter to translate a letter written in Aramaic from the Persian king to the Spartans; and the Athenian general Xenophon (Anabasis 7.2.19; cf. 7.3.25) says that he used an interpreter to make an appointment with the Thrakian prince Seuthes. On the whole, however, references to interpreters are surprisingly few and it would appear that the term hermeneus did not have a specifically linguistic sense until the time of Aiskhylos (Agamemnon 1062).

Communication would certainly have been facilitated by bilingualism, a natural consequence of intermarriage between alloglots: thus, Herodotos (6.138.2) recounts how the Athenian women kidnapped by the Pelasgians of Lemnos taught their children the Attic tongue (glossa Attike). But the earliest attested instance of bilingualism in Greek literature is found in the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite (113-16), where Aphrodite disguises herself as a Phrygian woman who addresses the Trojan Ankhises in his own language. Indeed it is more commonly non-Greeks who are credited with a multilingual proficiency: for example, the mid-seventh-century Egyptian Pharaoh Psammetikhos is said to have entrusted Egyptian children to his Greek mercenaries in order to learn the Greek language; at a vast banquet held in 479 BC to which the Thebans invited Persian dignitaries, Thersandros of Orkhomenos was addressed in Greek by his Persian dining partner; and the Karians and the populations of the Khalkidike were apparently competent in the Greek language. There are, however, also instances of Greeks who possess varying levels of bilingual competence. The characterization of a Lydian woman by the late sixth-century poet Hipponax (fr. 92 West) betrays some knowledge of Lydian and even Phrygian vocabulary; Histiaios, the tyrant of Miletos, is said to have been able to speak Persian and a similar competence in Persian is attributed to Themistokles and to Alkibiades, while Pythagoras�s supposed to have learnt Egyptian.

According to Strabo (14.2.28), the Karian language was peppered with many Greek loan-words, and a reciprocal Karian 'substrate� influence on the epichoric idioms of Miletos, Myous and Priene has often been suspected on the basis of Herodotos� identification (1.142.2�3) of these as a distinct subgroup within the Ionic dialects of Asia Minor, though we are not informed further as to the exact linguistic nature of their specificity. Lexical borrowings on their own need not necessitate a bilingual environment for their transmission, but it is different with cases of phonological, morphological or syntactic borrowings, for which Sicily presents an interesting example. In late sixth- and fifth-century inscriptions from the Elymian cities of Egesta and Eryx, the recurring element -emi probably derives from Greek eimi, the first-person singular of the verb 'to be'; the same is true for the -emi which appears together with an apparently indigenous name on a sherd of a sixth- or fifth-century Lakonian krater from the Sikel site of Morgantina.124 In the Greek city of Gela, on the other hand, three graffiti from the akropolis appear to indicate ownership through the employment of eimi ('I am') with the dative case ('to/for x5). The standard formula in Greek employs the genitive case ('of x\ but the use of the dative does seem to be attested in 'Elymian� inscriptions and may in fact be common to many of the non-Greek languages of Sicily. This level of linguistic interference between Greek and non-Greek idioms requires more than casual intercourse and hints strongly at the existence of a bilingual environment on the island. Though its lateness makes it of dubious value, Iamblikhos� notice (Life ofPythagoras 34.241) that Pythagoras ordered all Greek Pythagoreans to speak Greek is interesting in that it suggests that many of the Greeks of South Italy may have employed indigenous idioms. Bilingualism would also have facilitated (though it is not necessarily required by) the transmission of the Greek alphabet, adopted by Phrygians, Etruscans and Lydians in the eighth century, the Karians in the seventh century and the Lykians, Sikeloi and Elymoi in the sixth century.

While bilingualism may have facilitated communication between linguistic areas, the conscious act of 'switching' between speech idioms does not necessarily blur linguistic boundaries. On the other hand, to maintain that it was in the act of such 'switching' that a speaker became conscious of his or her linguistic (and hence ethnic) Hellenic heritage, it would need to be shown that there was an awareness of a common Hellenic language, spoken from one end of the Mediterranean to the other. It might be thought that the 'diffusion in performance' of the Homeric epics - characterized by their employment of an artificial and archaizing dialect somewhat removed from the spoken idioms of individual poleis - satisfied this requirement, but in that case it is all the more surprising that an early conception of a singular Hellenic language is so illusory in our documentation. In fact, it is not until the fifth century that we find a concrete expression of this concept in the phrase he Hellas glossa ('the Greek tongue�). This is also the period when the verb hellenizein first appears, but although it is often maintained that the primary and original meaning of the word was 'to speak Greek' and that it only later acquired the sense of 'to act like a Greek', it is not in fact attested in a strictly linguistic sense until the early fourth century. When Thoukydides (2.68.5) employs the verb to describe the Hellenization of the Amphilokhian Argives through contact with the neighbouring population of Ambrakia, he has to qualify it by saying that 'they became Hellenic with regard to the speech they still use. Even in the Classical period, however, it is clear that these expressions are abstractions based on the pre-existing idea of a Hellenic community rather than on any empirical linguistic understanding of the isoglosses which define the Greek language.

The fact is that what we term the Greek language was in reality a collection of myriad regional dialects. It is often assumed that these were mutually intelligible and that therefore the greater ease with which Greeks could have understood one another as opposed to speakers of other languages would have engendered a growing consciousness of a shared Greek language. Yet quite apart from the already noted lack of terminology to express such a consciousness prior to the fifth century, there are many documented instances within ethnolinguistic research which demonstrate clearly that dialect speakers are often able to comprehend dialects of another language group better than some dialects within their own language group. Literary evidence provides little explicit testimony for the difficulty or ease of communication between Greek dialect speakers (just as it is similarly reticent about linguistic interactions between Greeks and non-Greeks), though Thoukydides� inability to understand the Eurytanes of Aitolia (3.94.5) or Plato's characterization of the Lesbian Pittakos� dialect as 'a barbarian register� (Protagoras 3410) offer salutary warnings. Aside from the literary evidence, the belief in the mutual intelligibility of Greek dialects is largely predicated on epigraphical evidence, but here it is necessary to remember, firstly, that the finite limitations of a graphic system conceal a far greater diversity of oral idioms and, secondly, that the vast bulk of the epigraphical evidence available for analysis dates to the Classical period and later - a time when increased intercommunication is likely to have led to dialectal convergence rather than divergence. In reality, intelligibility is governed not by the structural linguistic correspondences that the detached observer can analyse between dialects and languages but the intensity of contact between speakers of different idioms. This means that a Greek citizen of, say, Ephesos could have communicated with a Karian with whom he came into daily contact just as easily as (and perhaps more easily than) with a visitor from remote Arkadia.

 

Athens appears to have played a significant role in the invention of a barbarian antitype and there are, therefore, some grounds for suspecting that it bears some responsibility also for the promotion of cultural criteria in the definition of Hellenicity.

The emergence of democracy at Athens was not simply the extension of political privileges and duties to a wider cross-section of society but rather, as the name suggests, the rule (kratos) of the demos - a term which had, in the Archaic period, designated the general populace as opposed to the elite. Something little short of a political revolution had occurred, and the victory of the Athenian demos was achieved at the expense of an Athenian elite which was considered to fraternize more than it should with barbarians - especially through xenia and intermarriage (see chapter 4).

For example, the late sixth-century Athenian tyrant Hippias is said to have given his daughter Arkhedike to the tyrant of Lampsakos in the hope of fostering good relations with King Dareios, and the fifth-century generals Kimon and Themistokles were both said to be the sons of non-Greek mothers. The disapproval this evoked is evident from ostraka of the period on which the candidate for exile was often characterized - and sometimes even graphically depicted - as a 'Mede�. Ostracism was, no doubt, first and foremost a reaction in the immediate aftermath of Marathon to fears that Athenian aristocrats might be intriguing with Persian functionaries - and especially the exiled Hippias, who had made the Persian Empire his home - but it was also, at least in part, a measure explicitly aimed at the elite. The 'othering� of the barbarian, I would suggest, served a similar function in marginalizing Athenian elite practices.

The fact that it was in the cultural sphere that elite Medizing transgressions could most easily be scrutinized ensured that culture would henceforth serve as the most distinctive boundary marker between Hellenism and barbarism

Hellenicity" by Jonathan Hall, Page 199

Agesilaos and skopjan logic

The following is from Xenophon Hellenika 4.3.3-18

Read it carefully.

[3] Accordingly Dercylidas set out at once for the Hellespont.

And Agesilaus, passing through Macedonia, arrived in Thessaly. Then the Larisaeans, Crannonians, Scotussaeans, and Pharsalians, who were allies of the Boeotians, and in fact all the Thessalians except those of them who chanced at that time to be exiles, followed after him and kept molesting him. [4] And for a time he led the army in a hollow square, with one half of the horsemen in front and the other half at the rear; but when the Thessalians, by charging upon those who were behind, kept interfering with his progress, he sent along to the rear the vanguard of horsemen also, except those about his own person. [5] Now when the two forces had formed in line of battle against one another, the Thessalians, thinking that it was not expedient to engage as cavalry in a battle with hoplites, turned2 round and slowly retired. [6] And the Greeks very cautiously followed them. Agesilaus, however, perceiving the mistakes which each side was making, sent the very stalwart horsemen who were about his person and ordered them not only to give word to the others to pursue with all speed, but to do likewise themselves, and not to give the Thessalians a chance to face round again. [7] And when the Thessalians saw them rushing upon them unexpectedly, some of them fled, others turned about, and others, in trying to do this, were captured while their horses were turned half round. [8] But Polycharmus the Pharsalian, who was the commander of the cavalry, turned round and fell fighting, together with those about him. When this happened, there followed a headlong flight on the part of the Thessalians, so that some of them were killed and others were captured. At all events they did not stop until they had arrived at Mount Narthacium. [9] On that day, accordingly, Agesilaus set up a trophy between Pras and Narthacium and remained on the field of battle, greatly pleased with his exploit, in that he had been victorious, over the people who pride themselves particularly upon their horsemanship, with the cavalry that he had himself gathered together. And on the following day he crossed the Achaean mountains of Phthia and marched on through a friendly country all the rest of the way, even to the boundaries of the Boeotians.

[10] When he was at the entrance to Boeotia, the sun seemed to appear crescent-shaped, and word was brought to him that the Lacedaemonians had been defeated in the naval battle and the admiral, Peisander,3 had been killed. It was also stated in what way the battle had been fought. [11] For it was near Cnidos that the fleets sailed against one another, and Pharnabazus, who was admiral, was with the Phoenician ships, while Conon5 with the Greek fleet was posted in front of him. [12] And when Peisander, in spite of his ships being clearly fewer than the Greek ships under Conon, had formed his line of battle against them, his allies on the left wing immediately fled, and he himself, after coming to close encounter with the enemy, was driven ashore, his trireme damaged by the enemy's beaks; and all the others who were driven ashore abandoned their ships and made their escape as best they could to Cnidos, but he fell fighting on board his ship. [13] Now Agesilaus, on learning these things, at first was overcome with sorrow; but when he had considered that the most of his troops were the sort of men to share gladly in good fortune if good fortune came, but that if they saw anything unpleasant, they were under no compulsion to share in it,6 --thereupon, changing the report, he said that word had come that Peisander was dead, but victorious in the naval battle. [14] And at the moment of saying these things he offered sacrifice as if for good news, and sent around to many people portions of the victims which had been offered; so that when a skirmish with the enemy took place, the troops of Agesilaus won the day in consequence of the report that the Lacedaemonians were victorious in the naval battle.

[15] Those who were now drawn up against Agesilaus were the Boeotians, Athenians, Argives, Corinthians, Aenianians, Euboeans, and both7 the Locrian peoples; while with Agesilaus was a regiment of Lacedaemonians which had crossed over from Corinth, half8 of the regiment from Orchomenus, furthermore the emancipated Helots from Lacedaemon who had made the expedition with him, besides these the foreign contingent which Herippidas commanded, and, furthermore, the troops from the Greek cities in Asia and from all those cities in Europe which he had brought over as he passed through them; and from the immediate neighbourhood there came to him hoplites of the Orchomenians and Phocians. As for peltasts, those with Agesilaus were far more numerous; on the other hand, the horsemen of either side were about equal in number. [16] This, then, was the force on both sides; and I will also describe the battle, and how it proved to be like no other of the battles of our time. They met on the plain of Coronea, those with Agesilaus coming from the Cephisus, and those with the Thebans from Mount Helicon. And Agesilaus occupied the right wing of the army under his command, while the Orchomenians were at the extreme end of his left wing. On the other side, the Thebans themselves were on the right and the Argives occupied their left wing.

[17] Now as the opposing armies were coming together, there was deep silence for a time in both lines; but when they were distant from one another about a stadium, the Thebans raised the war-cry and rushed to close quarters on the run. When, however, the distance between the armies was still about three plethra, the troops whom Herippidas commanded, and with them the Ionians, Aeolians, and Hellespontines, ran forth in their turn from the phalanx of Agesilaus, and the whole mass joined in the charge and, when they came within spear thrust, put to flight the force in their front. As for the Argives, they9 did not await the attack of the forces of Agesilaus, but fled to Mount Helicon. [18] Thereupon some of the mercenaries were already garlanding Agesilaus, when a man brought him word that the Thebans had cut their way through the Orchomenians and were in among the baggage train. And he immediately wheeled his phalanx and led the advance against them; but the Thebans on their side, when they saw that their allies had taken refuge at Mount Helicon, wishing to break through to join their own friends, massed themselves together and came on stoutly.

Now following the common Skopjan logic the above suggests:

1. Thessalians are...not Greeks.

I see a 'clear differentation' between Thessalians and Greeks.

Quote:

Thessalians, thinking that it was not expedient to engage as cavalry in a battle with hoplites, turned2 round and slowly retired. [6] And the Greeks very cautiously followed them.

2. Spartans are...not Greeks.

I see another 'clear differentation' between Spartans and Greeks

Quote:

For it was near Cnidos that the fleets sailed against one another, and Pharnabazus, who was admiral, was with the Phoenician ships, while Conon with the Greek fleet was posted in front of him. [12] And when Peisander, in spite of his ships being clearly fewer than the Greek ships under Conon, had formed his line of battle against them

3. There was another battle of...Chaeronea. This time between Spartans and the United Greek army.

Quote:

[15] Those who were now drawn up against Agesilaus were the Boeotians, Athenians, Argives, Corinthians, Aenianians, Euboeans, and both7 the Locrian peoples; while with Agesilaus was a regiment of Lacedaemonians which had crossed over from Corinth, half8 of the regiment from Orchomenus

Therefore my conclusions are by following always the common Skopjan logic:

Spartans had conquered Greece.

Spartans faced a united Greek army who wished to liberate Greece.

Greek tribes being labelled 'Barbarians'

A usual wordwide misconception is the association of the word 'Barbarian' with non-Greeks. This claim is useful for Fyromian propaganda who uses it heavily but unfortunately for them ancient texts refute them. We all know about examples like Epirotes being classed as 'barbarians' from Thucydides, although they were greek-speakers.

However the ultimate proof of Greek tribes being called 'barbarians is coming from Athenaios Deipnosophistes where Stratonicus the harp-player was asked "πότερα Βοιωτοί βαρβαρώτεροι...ή θετταλοί, Ηλείους έφησεν" meaning "who were the greatest Barbarians, the Boeotians or the Thessalians" and he replied "the Eleans".

Quote:

42. And Clearchus. in the second book of his treatise on Friendship, says,-" Stratonicus the harp-player, whenever he wished to go to sleep, used to order a slave to bring him something to drink; ' not,' says he, 'because I am thirsty now, but that I may not be presently.'" And once, at Byzantium, when a harp-player had played his prelude well, but had made a blunder of the rest of the performance, he got up and made proclamation, " That whoever would point out the harp-player who had played the prelude should receive a thousand drachme." And when he was once asked by some one who were the wickedest people, he said, "That in Pamphylia, the people of Plaselis were the worst; but that the Sidetze were the worst in the wl-hIole world." And when he was asked again, according to the account given by Hegesander, which were the greatest barbarians, the Boeotians or the Thessalians he said, " The Eleans."

Athenaios VIII 350a

Plato characterized the Lesbian Aeolic Greek dialect as 'a barbarian register� while addressing Pittakos of Mytilene. We do know though Aeolic was a Greek dialect. Another bright example about the abuse of the term "barbaros"

[Protagoras 3410]

Another example is the dialogue between Socrates and Strepsiadis in Aristophanes "Clouds". At a certain moment Socrates call Strepsiadis "ανθρωπός αμαθές ουτώσι και βάρβαρος". This make even clearer the term "barbaros" was used as a derogatory term since Strepsiadis...was a well-known Athenian. Unless skopjans insist on believing Atheneans werent greeks either.

Aeschines, On the Embassy 2 183

Quote:

A word more and I have done. One thing was in my power, fellow citizens: to do you no wrong. But to be free from accusation, that was a thing which depended upon fortune, and fortune cast my lot with a slanderer, a barbarian, who cared not for sacrifices nor libations nor the breaking of bread together; nay, to frighten all who in time to come might oppose him, he has fabricated a false charge against us and come in here. If, therefore, you are willing to save those who have laboured together with you for peace and for your security, the common good will find champions in abundance, ready to face danger in your behalf.

Here Aeschines when attempting to refute Demosthenes' accusations, clearly titles him a "barbarian" that "fabricated a false charge" against him.

Xenophon says that the Spartans began to mobilize
: their allies and to make plans that the six
: thousand were initially to be drawn from all of
: Sparta's allies in Greece and not merely from the
: Peloponnesians, as had been the case with the
: force sent out under Thibron. And finally,
: Plutarch refers to Agesilaus as `the commander of
: all Greece'." <<p.94>
:
: After the Spartan decision to authorize the
: expedition had been taken, were sent round to the
: various allied cities to encourage their partici-
: pation. But not all of Sparta's allies agreed to
: participate. The Corinthians abstained,... The
: Athenians and the Thebans also refused,... <p.94>
:
: The king was quite eager to undertake the
: expedition after his initial resistance had been
: overcome, however, for this was his first
: military command and his first opportunity to
: achieve fame and glory. And he tried to cloak his
: expedition in panhellenism, by likening himself
: to Agamemnon at the head of a Greek army sailing
: against the hereditary Asian foe. Agesilaus did
: return to Asia Minor once more, in 366, to fight
: in the service of a satrap against the Great King
: of Persia, and he spent the last years of his
: life in service to rebellious Egyptians against
: the power of Persia. Scholars have argued,
: therefore, that he was motivated by panhellenism
: and anti-Persian sentiments throughout his career,
: stemming from his early experiences in Asia Minor
: in the 390s. <p.96>
:
: Xenophon... himself reports that he was relieved
: of command at the beginning of spring 395 and
: that the newly arrived Spartiate staff was put in
: command of the various elements of Agesilaus'
: army, including the cavalry and the Cyrian corps.
: <pp.97-98>
:
: Last, but not least, there was the question of
: Agesilaus' army itself. This was a motley group,
: consisting of several thousand of neodamodeis, of
: even more numerous Peloponnesian allied troops,
: of Greek mercenaries (many of whom were remnants
: of the Ten Thousand), and of local Greek units
: raised in one fashion or another. <p.102>

C.D.Hamilton's "Agesilaus and the Failure : of Spartan Hegemony (Cornell University Press, 1991):

Greeks V Hellenes

We have heared many times from those that support the non Greekness of the Hellenic Macedonians that the ancient writers segerated them from the others Hellenes.
This is true but......
The ancient writers using to segerate them not only the Macedonians but also the Athenians,Spartans, Ionians e.t.c. Below some examples of ancient Greek tribes or cities occasionally or repeatedly juxtaposed to "the Hellenes".I dont not include the Macedonians. We have the FYROMacedonian for that.

Spartans/Lacedaimonians:

• "...the Lacedaimonians, fearful lest Themistokles should devise some great evil against them and the Hellenes, honoured him with double the numbers of gifts..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.27.3]
• "In this year (475 BCE) the Lacedaimonians... were resentful; consequently they were incensed at the Hellenes who had fallen away from them and continued to threaten them with the appropriate punishment." [Diodoros Sikeliotis11.50.1]
• "In a single battle the Peloponnesians and their allies may be able to defy all the Hellenes, but they can not carry a whole war..." [Thukydides 1.141; Oration of Pericles]
• "When the Eleians not only paid no heed to them [the Lacedaimonians] but even accused them besides of enslaving the Hellenes, they dispatched Pausanias, the other of the two kings, against them with 4,000 soldiers." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 14.17.6]
• "But Pausanias, the king of the Lakedaimonians, being jealous of Lysandros and observing that Sparta was in ill repute among the Hellenes, marched forth with a strong army and on his arrival in Athens brought about a reconciliation between the men of the city and the exiles. [Diodoros Sikeliotis14.33.6]
• "He says... the Lacedaimonians... gave to the Hellenes to taste the sweet drink of freedom..." [Plutarch, Lysandros 13]
• "Agesilaos was accused... that he exposed the city (Sparta) as an accomplice in the crimes against the Hellenes." [Plutarch, Agesilaos 26]
• "...the Lacedaimonians, who were hard put to it by the double war, that against the Hellenes and that against the Persians, dispatched their admiral Antalkidas to Artaxerxes to treat for peace." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 14.110.2]
• "The Lacedaimonians... used their allies roughly and harshly, stirring up, besides, unjust and insolent wars against the Hellenes,..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 15.1.3]
• "At this time the kings of the Lacedaimonians were at variance with each other on matters of policy. Agesipolis, who was a peaceful and just man and, furthermore, excelled in wisdom, declared that they should abide by their oaths and not enslave the Hellenes contrary to the common agreements." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 15.16.4]
• "Thus, the Hellenes were wondering what the state of the Lacedaimonian army would be had it been commanded by Agesilaos or... the old Leonidas." [Plutarch, Agis 14]
• "Even though the Lacedaimonians had combated the Hellenes many times only one of their kings had ever died in action..." [Plutarch, Agis 21]

Athenians:

• "When the estrangement which had arisen between the Athenians and the Hellenes became noised abroad, there came to Athens ambassadors from the Persians and from the Hellenes. [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.28.1]
• "...the Hellenes gathered in congress decreed to make common cause with the Athenians and advanced to Plataia in a body..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.29.1]
• "He soothed the Athenians' pride by promising them... that the Hellenes would accept their leadership..." [Plutarch, Themistokles 7]
• "...the Athenians, because of their policy of occupying with colonists the lands of those whom they subdued, had a bad reputation with the Hellenes;..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 15.23.4]
• "And we decided upon a twofold revolt, from the Hellenes and the Athenians, not to aid the latter in harming the former... " [Thukydides, 3.13; Oration of the Mytilenaians]
• "When the Athenians attacked the Hellenes, they, the Plataians... Atticized. [Thukydides, 3.62; Theban Accusations]
• "The Athenians... by this denerous act they recovered the goodwill of the Hellenes and made their own leadership more secure." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 15.29.8]
• "And this was the first naval victory that the city (Athens) had against the Hellenes, after the destruction." [Plutarch, Phokion 6]

Hellenes of Asia Minor, the Aegean islands, Crete, Cyprus, Central Greece, the Ionian Land :

• "The Athenians... reasoned that, if the Ionians were given new homes by the Hellenes acting in common they would no longer look upon Athens as their mother-city." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.37.3]
• "...and as for the Hellenes, they were emboldened by the promise of the Ionians, and... came down eagerly in a body from Salamis to the shore in preparation for the sea- battle." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.17.4]
• "Now the Samians and Milesians had decided unanimously beforehand to support the Hellenes..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.36.2]
• "...although the Ionians thought that the Hellenes would be encouraged, the result was the very opposite." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.36.2]
• "When the Samians and Milesians put in their appearance, the Hellenes plucked up courage,... and Aiolians participated in the battle,..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.36.4-5]
• "When the Aiolians and Ionians had heard these promises, they resolved to take the advice of the Hellenes..." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.37.2]
• "The Cretans, when the Hellenes sent to ask aid from them... acted as follows..." [Herodotos 7.169]
• "The King (of Persia), now that his difference with the Hellenes was settled, made ready his armament for the war against Cyprus. For Evagoras had got possession of almost the whole of Cyprus and gathered strong armaments, because (king) Artaxerxes was distracted by the war against the Hellenes." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 14.110.5]
• "The Lokrians... when they learned that Leonidas had arrived at Thermopylai, changed their minds and went over to the Hellenes." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.4.6]
• "Now the Phokians had chosen the cause of the Hellenes, but seeing that they were unable to offer resistance... fled for safety to the rugged regions about Mount Parnassos." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.14.1]
• "The Thebans, anticipating the arrival of a large army from Hellas to aid the Lacedaimonians [controlling the citadel of Thebes, the Kadmeia], dispatched envoys to Athens to remind them... and to request them to come with all their forces and assist them in reducing the Kadmeia before the arrival of the Lacedaimonians." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 15.25.4]
• "All the Hellenes gladly received the proposal [of Artaxerxes, the Persian King], and all the cities agreed to a general peace except Thebes; for the Thebans alone, being engaged in bringing Boiotia under a single confederacy, were not admitted by the Hellenes because of the general determination to have the oaths and treaties made city by city." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 15.50.4]
• "Since the Lacedaimonians made peace with all the Hellenes, they were in war only with the Thebans..." [Plutarch, Pelopidas 20]
• "... the recorders of the Amphictyons [the hieromnemones] brought charges against the Phokians and... if they did not obey, they should incur the common hatred of the Hellenes." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 16.23.3]
• "And Gelon replied with vehemence: `Hellenes,... you exhort me to join in league with you against the barbarian...' [Herodotos, 7.157]
• "Gelon [the ruler of the Hellenic city of Syrakousai]... was making ready... to join the Hellenes in the war against the Persians." [Diodoros Sikeliotis 11.26.4]
• "This is how they (Kerkyraians) eluded the reproaches of the Hellenes. [Herodotos, 7.168]

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Barbarians was used as one sees and knows to describe foregneirs and greeks albeit as an insult or derogatory term.Thankou all.

Sparta actually considered Athens and the rest of the Greek cities as barbarians.

There is a similar thread in

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5870

and my article with the title

Edited by akritas - 26-Apr-2007 at 05:11

Originally posted by Penelope Sparta actually considered Athens and the rest of the Greek cities as barbarians.

Exactly!
A good example is the speech of Brasidas.

Also remember that the Accarneans were called barbarians by the Athenians when they broke the alliance and joined the Lakaidemonian side.

Also we have the "Megarikos Gelotas" which was the uncivilized behaviour (according to the Athenians) of the Megarians when attending theater.

Also we have the "Megarikos Gelotas" which was the uncivilized behaviour (according to the Athenians) of the Megarians when attending theater.

I thought that Atheneans were free to express their feelings in ancient theatres,even to yell at the actors , as a disapproval for a bad acting. Well if i understand correctly ,Atheneans made fun of some Megareans who laughed sonorously and (probably) exagerate it , creating a stereotype for their neighbours, connected with the term of barbarism.

About the Acarnaneans, the spartan consideration about Atheneans and Brasidas i think that the usage of the  barbaros term,  is obviously motivated by political or  demagoguic reasons(so as for the modern nations ).

Well, about Theodoros, it is known that drinking non mixed wine(in ancient Greece at least) was considered as  a barbaric action, mostly because of its unpleasant results was speaking strangely and God only knows what else!