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Scottish in the crusades???

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  Quote white knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scottish in the crusades???
    Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 03:13
     Hi guys, I'm just wandering if there are Scottish knight in the crusades.   And if so, what order do they belong?...   I know that, English, Holy Roman (Germany), Spanish (Aragon and Castile), French (Provence and Auvergne), and Italians knights belong to the Hospitallers, while majority of the Normans belong to the Templars...        and are they still wearing their tartans in the crusades?  I would really like to see pictures if possibile.   Thanks.   Smile  

Edited by white knight - 21-Mar-2007 at 03:14
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 04:08
There were Scottish Knights Templar who fought in the Crusades.
   Apparently the Stewart and Bruce heirs were reputed to be Knights Templars from birth.
     
     


Edited by Scorpian - 21-Mar-2007 at 05:23
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 19:10
I assume so. I even heard that some Irish joined the crusade. It sounds odd to side with the English, but it's not too far from the realtiy. I mean, they were Catholics like Scotland and England at that time...
     
   
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 21:09
From varying contemporary and other sources the answer is yes, there were Scottish Templars but to identification of  numerous individals i have not heard perse a name reference the earliest of the crusades. Although in point of fact, de payne was granted lands there by marriage in 1128, and no doubt induced followers of the St. Clair's to the colours.
 
Likewize the Sinclairs in association with the so called 'Orkney crusade', also Templars, were in the crusade that unfortunately led to the sack of Constaintinople in 1203.
 
And as alluded to earlier it is surmised that the order members fought at Bannockburn in 1314.
 


Edited by Lord Ranulf - 21-Mar-2007 at 21:10
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 04:28
Originally posted by pekau

I assume so. I even heard that some Irish joined the crusade. It sounds odd to side with the English, but it's not too far from the realtiy. I mean, they were Catholics like Scotland and England at that time...
 
              Not so odd considering the time period. After the Norman Invasion of 1066 lands in England and Wales were granted to Breton Knights who had supported the Normans. David I of Scotland invited and granted lands to many French and anglo French Knights (mainly Bretons) in Scotland. If you have ever watched Braveheart movie recall the part when it was said that the Scottish nobles were as rich in English lands and titles as they were in Scottish ones. (Thus Wallace having himself such a hard time trying to unite the Scottish nobility).Confused
            Many of those invited to Scotland had lands and family ties in England/Wales and had lands and family ties in France. The Stewarts (ie FitzAlans), Bruce (De Brus),Balliol (De Balleuil) and Comyn (De Comines) were amongst many such families invited to Scotland and whose families were part of; (or had financialy supported) the Norman Invasion force.
        Therefore not so odd that Knights Templar had relatives and support in France, England and Scotland when the root stock of the noblility were in some way related.


Edited by Scorpian - 22-Mar-2007 at 05:39
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  Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 02:11
We must also remember that many who joined the crusades didn't necessarily belong to any religous knightly order.
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  Quote white knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 08:48
Originally posted by Eondt

We must also remember that many who joined the crusades didn't necessarily belong to any religous knightly order.
 
 
   So, under what banner are they (anyone not belonging to any religous knightly order)?  If don't mind me asking,... under the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem?
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  Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2007 at 09:13
Well...the most prominent nobles would have gone under their own banners and other would have gone under the banner of their respective lieges. Rember the episode in the 3rd crusade where the banner of Duke Leopold were torn down in favour of Richard III's? That would be a good example.
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 09:19
I think some Scots joined the Crusades. I remember reading that Robert the Bruce even went on a crusade in Moorish Spain.

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2012 at 20:19
Robert Bruce wanted his heart buried in the Holy Land, but it only made it as far as Grenada, where his military commander was killed. After the battle the king's heart was returned to Scotland and buried in Dumfernline Abbey. 
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2012 at 22:02
Originally posted by Nick1986

Robert Bruce wanted his heart buried in the Holy Land, but it only made it as far as Grenada, where his military commander was killed. After the battle the king's heart was returned to Scotland and buried in Dumfernline Abbey. 
This is a wee bit I remember about the Bruce's heart and more eloquently said in this quote.

Douglas and the Bruce's heart

As Bruce lay dying in 1329 he asked Sir James Douglas to take his heart on crusade against the enemies of Christ. Douglas carried Bruce’s heart into battle against the Moors in Spain before it was returned to Scotland and finally buried at Melrose Abbey.

On Bruce’s death his heart was cut from his body and embalmed. It was placed in a silver casket. Douglas gave land to Newbattle Abbey so that each year a mass would be sung for St Bride and 13 poor people would be fed so the saint would intercede with God for his immortal soul.

Sir James Douglas and a handful of Scots knights sailed from Scotland. At Sluys in Flanders they spent 12 days aboard ships entertaining visitors. It was said that Douglas ‘bore himself magnificently, with kettledrums and trumpets, as though he had been the King of Scotland.’ The Scots ships were laden with silver vessels, flagons and dishes - their visitors were ‘feasted with two kinds of wine and two of spices.’

The Scots set sail, heading west. They landed in Spain where a stone at Santander recalled the hero ‘El Duglas’. Douglas and the Scots joined King Alfonso XI of Castile in his war against the Sultan of Granada, Muhammed IV.

In Castile an English knight marvelled at Douglas’s unscarred face - he expected the famed warrior to be covered in battle scars, as he himself was. Douglas replied, ‘God be praised, I always had my hands to defend my head.’

On 25 August 1330 Douglas and the Scots knights rode alongside the Castilians against the Moorish forces on the plain below the Castle of the Stars, at Teba. The Scots, including James Douglas, Simon Lockhart of Lee, William Keith, Robert Logan of Restalrig and Walter Logan, William Borthwick, Kenneth Moir, William St Clair of Rosslyn and John St Clair, charged into battle. The Moors feigned retreat and the Scots gave chase - leaving the Castilians behind.

When Douglas turned back he saw that Sir William St Clair was surrounded. Douglas charged to St Clair’s aid but found himself encircled. He took the silver casket containing Bruce’s heart from about his neck and threw it into the thick of the battle, shouting. ‘Now pass thou onward before us, as thou wast wont, and I will follow thee or die.’

Douglas and the Scots knights died at Teba. James’s body was found by the silver casket. Muhammed IV had the bodies of the Scots sent with guard of honour to King Alfonso. The surviving Scots, Sir William Keith and Sir Simon Lockhart, cut out their friends’ hearts and boiled their bodies down in a cauldron. They took the knights’ bones and hearts back to Scotland.

Sir William St Clair’s remains were buried at Rosslyn. The bones and embalmed heart of Sir James Douglas are buried at St Bride’s Kirk, Douglas. Robert the Bruce’s heart was buried at Melrose Abbey.

The Douglas arms changed - from the 1330s on they have borne a heart.

In the 1990s a team from Historic Scotland investigated a lead casket containing an embalmed heart found at Melrose Abbey. A stone plaque bearing the words ‘A noble hart may have nane ease gif freedom failye’ marks the spot where the heart was reburied.

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/warsofindependence/brucesheart/index.asp

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2012 at 19:12
Could the Scottish crusaders have introduced the austere, strict brand of Christianity that was so appealing to the Reformation-era Calvinists?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IwjDfxk4gXAC&lpg=PA10&dq=scottish%20crusader&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q&f=false
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  Quote Alexius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 05:10
There's a good overview of Scotland and the Crusades in Allan Macquarrie's "Scotland and the Crusades: 1095-1560" (here's a review: http://www.irss.uoguelph.ca/article/viewFile/818/1241 and the book itself http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scotland-Crusades-1095-1560-Alan-MacQuarrie/dp/0859764451).
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 19:12
Thanks AlexiusSmile
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