Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Schools allowed to ban face veils

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 10>
Author
Aydin View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

Suspended

Joined: 13-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481
  Quote Aydin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Schools allowed to ban face veils
    Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 14:09
 
 
Schools will be able to ban pupils from wearing full-face veils on security, safety or learning grounds under new uniforms guidance issued by ministers.

It says efforts must be made to accommodate religious clothing, but stresses the importance of teachers and pupils being able to make eye contact.

It comes after a girl, aged 12, failed in her High Court bid to overturn her Buckinghamshire school's niqab ban.

The Islamic Human Rights Commission said the new guidance was "shocking".

But the Muslim Education Centre welcomed the move - saying that the veil created a "bridge of non-understanding between communities".

The issue of religious dress has become an increasingly complicated one for schools in recent years, with a handful of high profile cases going to court.

But it is the victory by the Buckinghamshire school, which cannot be named for legal reasons, that has prompted the updated guidance.

The school argued the veil made communication between teachers and pupils difficult and thus hampered learning.

Teachers needed to be able to tell if a pupil was enthusiastic, paying attention or even distressed but full-face veils prevented this, it said.

This position was upheld by the High Court - which refused to grant a judicial review - and is expected to form a key part of the guidance.

'Simply shocking'

The guidance says schools need to be able to identify individual pupils in order to maintain good order and spot intruders.

"If a pupil's face is obscured for any reason the teacher may not be able to judge their engagement with learning or secure their participation in discussions and practical activities," it adds.

Schools minister Jim Knight said: "Schools should consult parents and the wider community when setting uniform policy.

"And while they should make every effort to accommodate social, religious or medical requirements of individual pupils, the needs of safety, security and effective learning in the school must always take precedence."

The head teacher of the Buckinghamshire school, who also cannot be named, said it would be very useful to have some clear guidance from the Department for Education and Skills (DfES).

"It's not right that schools should have to be arguing this out case by case," she told the BBC News website.

"Obviously there's a trade-off between schools retaining autonomy over school uniform decisions, on the other hand we will have some very clear guidance from the DfES within which to work."

'Dismayed'

There were divided responses from the Muslim community.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, Massoud Shadjareh, said he was "dismayed" by the DfES guidance.

"Successive ministers dealing with education issues have failed to give proper guidance when requested by human rights campaigners about schools' obligations regarding religious dress, including the head scarf.

"To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.

But the Muslim Council of Britain's education spokesman, Tahir Alam, said that the new guidance did not "alter the position very much" and said "the vast majority of schools are able to solve these issues locally".

Dr Tag Hargey of the Muslim Education Centre welcomed the guidance.

"When you conceal the face, that actually not only dehumanises the person involved, but also creates a chasm, a gap, a bridge of non-understanding between communities and I think the sooner we can get rid of this veil, this face veiling, this face masking in Muslim societies across Britain, so much the better."

'Equality issue'

Ayshah Ishmael, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC wearing the veil promoted equality.

She said: "You're judged for who you are and not what you are, so I think there are two arguments to the whole equality issue."

The Muslim Council of Britain has already urged schools to take into account Muslim pupils' needs to dress modestly and avoid tight-fitting or transparent garments.

The DfES said it was not ordering or advising head teachers to ban the veil, simply confirming that they have the ability to do so if they wish, so long as they carry out proper consultation.

'Breaches'

Association of School and College Leaders' general secretary Dr John Dunford said he was pleased the government is supporting school leaders in upholding school uniforms.

"Repeated and blatant breaches of uniform policy undermine the school ethos," he added.

Education spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain Tahir Alam said the new guidelines did not alter the position, because the issue remained with governing bodies and communities to resolve.

"The vast majority of schools are able to solve these issues locally, and that should continue to be the case. We have to be sensible in the way we address these issues."


Edited by Aydin - 22-Mar-2007 at 21:54
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 06:02
I kind of agree with the ban. I have no probems with people wearing whatever they like on the streets or in their private lives, but in some places or situations, it is not practical. There is no problem with a head-scarf, as long as the face is visible. In western countries, this is considered a normal politeness towards others. Wearing a face covering veil in class does display a certain unwillingness to adapt to some fundamental values of the country you live in.
 
We had a similar case recently, exept this was a teacher who wanted to wear a veil. I think that the face of a teacher should be visible to the pupils. If the woman wants to wear it outside of school, it is her choice, but a school has the right to determine how they want their teachers to dress or display.
 
What makes me wonder is the pick and choose mentality on religion of these women. They want to display a severe religious attitude, but at the same time they want to enjoy the full rights and possibilities of a western society. You cannot have it all: if you want to wear a face veil, you have to deal with the fact that it is not accepted in most occupations in the country you live in. If you want these jobs anyway, you cannot dress like that.
 
Turning up in drag, or in bikini or so is not accepted either, although it is peoples free decision to wear it in their private time.
 
 
Edit - Oh, and Aydin, copy-pasting large pieces of text without reference or comment is considered plagiarism, which is against the CoC, as well as against the law. Please add a link to the source and some motivation as to why you posted this article, as I have a sneaking suspicion you did it simply to provoke.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 21-Mar-2007 at 12:05

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Scorpian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 323
  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 06:52
I agree with Aelgifu on this issue.
        When living in a host country peeps should adhere to the same cack that we are all expected to follow and not promote themselves as an exception to the rule.
       Common sense should prevail and issues akin to this should be binned from the onset without incurring cost to the tax payers or the legal aid budget.
          


Edited by Scorpian - 21-Mar-2007 at 09:32
Scorpian
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 10:34
I agree with Aelfgifu 100% too. We had these rules set and they've always applied to every citizen. If you want equal rights, thats apart of it, no special treatment for anyone.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 11:59
I've got a major problem though. Wearing a veil, in most situations is not a problem, even in school What is shocking for most of us is to see a 5 year old wearing one and explaining you it so because the women have to be humble (i.e. they represent evil and etc). But fondamentally it doesn't affect the class per se. Admitedly it creates a difference between those who wear it and those who don't. And any social gap may be greatly domageable for the development of the child. But it is really farfeatch in my view.

Then there is the option: uniform for everybody in school, it is ok if they want to dress otherwise at home. After all where's the big deal, take it off when you come in class put it back when you leave school. But what about the sikh for instance? They just can't take off their hair thing, it takes ages and then it lags behind them there is no easy answer unless you decide to play it tough and simply force everybody to follow a centrally decided dress code, a bit as Ataturk did. But it is not an exciting option either.

Finally you have the possibility to say: ok strict dress code in public school, free in private school. But that means you are forcing out the religious minorities out of the social main stream which is definitly very very dangerous because before you know it you have a bunch of integrists in your streets (remember that taliban come from al-talib, the student).

Then there is one last option: designate islam as a clear danger per se and not all religion, and specially discriminate against it. Something quite similar happened in France in the early 20th century: the state attacked the power of the Catholic church which was very mighty still at the time and pretty much left protestants and jews minding their own business. But then again, I'm not sure a major clash is exactly what we want

To sum up, there is no easy answer and I guess rulers must have nightmares and bad headaches just thinking about that!
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
Brian J Checco View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Eli Manning

Joined: 30-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925
  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:04
Agree with Aelfgifu. If someone moves from Pakistan (example) to Britain, it is not Britain that must conform to Pakistani norms, but the Pakistani immigrant to British norms (if they want full acceptance into the community, anyway). We're having a similar issue in America with immigrants wanting to conform the American norms to suit their own tastes; In fact, just recently, some Islamic associations protested the banning of ceremonial knives in schools, as well as the official outlawing of stoning as a judicial punishment. The reaction to their protests here in America was largely one of "shut the hell up"; which I believe is totally acceptable. The culture at large has a right to determine it's own social, political, and cultural norms, and I see no reason why they should have to cater to the whims of minority immigrant groups, so long as the regulations aren't oppressive, anyway (i.e. they don't infringe upon their rights to life, liberty, or property). But when these sorts of whiney people want to change the traditional backbones of a nation (like not walking around armed in the streets, or changing the Pledge of Allegiance, etc), it just gets too much. I think at some point, the governments have a right to tell them "Hey, that's just the way things are here. Get used to it."
Now, that's not to say that they shouldn't be allowed to retain their own cultures (in fact, they should be encouraged to. Variety is the spice of life, so they say). Ethnic and cultural diversity is wonderful, but at some point, there has to be a decision on what's passable in Britain (or any other nation that hosts refugees, be it the Phillipines or Germany), and what's not.


Alright, that may have come off a bit harsh. Let me offer it instead in the form of a parable*:

I, Brian, a white American, am going over to visit my friend Taki in Japan. When I arrive at the airport in Tokyo, she is there to greet me, and she shows me many things in Japan, not all of which I agree with. For instance, we don't go eat certain things because I don't like them, and some traditional Japanese arts I don't want to do, so Taki, as a good hostess, caters to my whininess, even though it slightly inconveniences her. Finally, after a long day of hanging out in the city, we go back to Taki's house. Upon entry, Taki takes off her shoes, which is the tradition there, and requests I do the same. I protest, telling her that "Where I come from, you can keep your shoes on when you walk into a house!"
When Taki asks again, I tell her she is being unfair, and constraining my rights to do things my own way. Taki says, "I'm not asking you to do anything particularly unreasonable; just remove an article of clothing. It is the respectful thing to do in Japan, and if you don't do it, it shows you don't respect me or my traditions. If you can't do a simple thing for your hostess who has done so much for you, I will kindly have to ask you to leave my home."

The End

Admittedly, that's just one way of looking at things, but I think it's fair that people should respect the traditions of someone else's home when they enter. The home is obviously our nation (whatever nation you're from is home), and we all should be afforded respect in our traditional homes. It's just proper, I think.

Eh, feel free to call me old-fashioned...
Cheers.

PS- parable: 

        a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson (Oxford English Dictionary)



Edited by Brian J Checco - 21-Mar-2007 at 12:09
Back to Top
Ovidius View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 20-Jun-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 422
  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:14
What makes me wonder is the pick and choose mentality on religion of these women. They want to display a severe religious attitude, but at the same time they want to enjoy the full rights and possibilities of a western society. You cannot have it all: if you want to wear a face veil, you have to deal with the fact that it is not accepted in most occupations in the country you live in. If you want these jobs anyway, you cannot dress like that.
 
Turning up in drag, or in bikini or so is not accepted either, although it is peoples free decision to wear it in their private time.


Yes but we live in a tolerant and free Western Society. We shouldn't force people to go against the Religious principles in certain cases, 'just because'.

They are somehow being Hypocrites because they live within a Tolerant society and want to wear a veil, which they believe is part of their faith? How is this in anyway hypocritical? Britain as her 'host' nation, is 5% Muslim. That is a significant amount of people. Now until someone can explain to me the real reason why Veils are 'bad' I fail to accept that they should be an exception to the Freedom of our Society.

Surely, an intellegent society can find ways of accomodating difference. Would we find it unacceptable to have a classroom changed because of a Disabled person or someone who had no facial expressions, would they be unteachable? Lets face it, exceptions are made all the time to accomodate all sorts of different religions, ailments and differences. This is a time for us to be resiliant, not to turn around and say, 'they should be banned, because veils are bad'.

Its all down to CHOICE, the pupils should be shown that society is about making responsible choices. If they are responsible enough to wear a veil, even under the pressures of modern life, then so be it.

As for School Uniforms. Full Veils can become part of the School uniform policy. Or do schools want everyone to have the EXACT same haircut, the EXACT same Hair Colour and the EXACT same shoes and the EXACT same hair band, maybe kids with glasses should be banned because they go against the collectivity of the school uniform. Or could we just accept a little individuality somewhere?

The school I've tutored in, doesn't even have school uniforms. Does it make a significant difference to the quality of teaching. I don't think so.

I agree with Aelfgifu 100% too. We had these rules set and they've always applied to every citizen. If you want equal rights, thats apart of it, no special treatment for anyone.


What? Equal Rights has NEVER EVEN MEANT we should become part of the NORM. Are you suggesting there is a 'way of being' and if you are outside of that, then thats basically tough.

I am glad my society isn't like that.
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:41
I agree with the notiuon that the school has the right to decide for itself what it feels is appropiate.
Never did understand the British (and other cultures') uniform fetish though.
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:45
@ Ovidius
 
I did not use the word Hypocrite anywhere, you did that. I do not see them as hypocritical, just whimsical. And I did not say everyone should adhere to a norm, I said that everyone who wants to be accepted into a society must show some willingness to live in that society.
Your attempts to compare women who wear a veil to handicapped people is distasteful and degrading to both parties. Handicapped people can not help being different, wearing a veil is a free choice.
 
I am not in favor of school uniforms at all. I just think that in a society where not showing your face is impolite and even insulting, wearing a face veil is not always acceptable. Anyone who wears it anyway, has to face the effects.
 
In no school anywhere it is allowed to wear a balaclava in class, and no-one finds that strange. In fact, it is considered totally normal that wearing balaclavas is not accepted. Even if I would make a great effort to show that wearing a balaclava is part of my convictions in life, I would still not be able to wear it. In fact, in all schools I know, wearing a hat or cap in class is not allowed. Exeptions however are made for headscarves and turbands for religious reasons. So society here has 'accomodated differences'.
 
In many jobs, it is required to look representable. If I can get fired for dying my hair green, why not for covering my face?
 
But toleration of culture or religion only goes as far as the fundamental values of the society. We do not tolerate female circumcision, even though it is an established cultural habit elsewhere. Showing your face to people is also a value of western society.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 21-Mar-2007 at 12:49

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Scorpian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 323
  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 12:46
Some of our local schools even took to banning Christmas celebration in case they offended minority groups; instead they had themselves  something called a festival of light.
   Why should we ban our own religious festivals out of fear of offending anyone.
              The majority suffer so the minority can't make complaintConfused
                  
 anyways enough is enough and if peeps can't accept a host countries laws and such then they can always leave.
                          
      true story:
       Two girls working in a government office; one a muslim and the other a catholic. The muslim girl was allowed to cover her face with a veil akin to her beliefs but the catholic girl was told to remove her crucifix from around her neck in case it offended the other lass.Disapprove
                    Who are the ones really being victimised?
                   


Edited by Scorpian - 21-Mar-2007 at 13:08
Scorpian
Back to Top
Ovidius View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 20-Jun-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 422
  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 13:42
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

@ Ovidius
 
I did not use the word Hypocrite anywhere, you did that. I do not see them as hypocritical, just whimsical. And I did not say everyone should adhere to a norm, I said that everyone who wants to be accepted into a society must show some willingness to live in that society.
Your attempts to compare women who wear a veil to handicapped people is distasteful and degrading to both parties. Handicapped people can not help being different, wearing a veil is a free choice.



No, that is not the point I am making. This is a FREE SOCIETY, we make exceptions for people who have disabilities, strict beliefs or differences in sexuality. Most of the country isn't gay, buy we don't ban same sex relationships because the kids will get laughed, bullied, or face some other abuse?

Wearing a veil is not a free choice in the minds of the people that wear them.

 
In no school anywhere it is allowed to wear a balaclava in class, and no-one finds that strange. In fact, it is considered totally normal that wearing balaclavas is not accepted. Even if I would make a great effort to show that wearing a balaclava is part of my convictions in life, I would still not be able to wear it. In fact, in all schools I know, wearing a hat or cap in class is not allowed. Exeptions however are made for headscarves and turbands for religious reasons. So society here has 'accomodated differences'.


So what, how are balaclavas comparable to Veils? Where is the evidence that someone needs to wear a balaclave. If they had something to hide on their face, a face mask would be acceptable. Expression of Faith in this nation is part of our rights, veils are part of the beliefs of certain women. Banning them should be against the law.
 

In many jobs, it is required to look representable. If I can get fired for dying my hair green, why not for covering my face?


Thats ridiculous. You dye your hair greed for what reason? Fun? Its quite clear that dying your hair green in this way is stupid. Wearing a veil is part of a religion. Covering you hair in a Turban would not be unnacceptable.
 

But toleration of culture or religion only goes as far as the fundamental values of the society. We do not tolerate female circumcision, even though it is an established cultural habit elsewhere. Showing your face to people is also a value of western society.


How is showing your face an important part of Western Social values? We live in a Multicultural society, part of that IDEAL isthat we can cope with differences in culture, that differ from the mainstream. I am not offended by veils whatsoever, they do not offend me, they are not degrading my way of life.

Short skirts, tight shirts, low cut tops - they offend me, seriously. I don't want to see peoples breasts.

true story:        Two girls working in a government office; one a muslim and the other a catholic. The muslim girl was allowed to cover her face with a veil akin to her beliefs but the catholic girl was told to remove her crucifix from around her neck in case it offended the other lass


How is that true? The Crucifix case was British Airways as far as I was aware. They told her to remove it because it was against their uniform policiy, they later removed that after she complained. She continues to wear her crucifix.

Wearing a Crucifix is, in my opinion, a sin. It is not part of the Christian faith. But If people believe that they need to wear a crucifix, so long as it does not pose a risk to other people or the person (so you shouldn't wear a crucifix if you are a fireman for example).

Some of our local schools even took to banning Christmas celebration in case they offended minority groups; instead they had themselves  something called a festival of light.


Well this is positive discrimination. What i find ridiculous is that it is used as a reason to why veils should be banned. Christmas shouldn't be celebrated in schools, not because of the offence it causes (nor is that the reason it is banned), but because Christmas is a Christian festival. Most of the Nations population are atheists, why should they be forced to celebrate Christmas. Unless you are talking about Father Christmas, which shouldnt' be celebrated simply because it promotes Consumerism.


Anyhow, Wearing a veil does not disclude you from society. IT is merely a reflection of the increasing narrow mind of the population. If you want to pomote freedom in society, you cannot make exceptions and ban people from 'wearing' something. The only case where this is acceptable is if something is offensive - so swear words for example. In the case of Schools and uniforms, there should be Exceptions for those that are different, in whatever way they are different. We should CELEBRATE DIVERSITY, not push everyone to be the same.

Freedom of Religion is part of the Universal Declaration of Human rights and Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights. We cannot have free religion, then make exceptions for parts of other relgions that we don't like. This is the real hypocracy here. I'd rather keep my freedoms, rather then allow them to be broken down. Although, I've noticed that people would rather worship division and hatred, rather then freedom, even though they preach freedom constantly. Freedom has come to mean the right to be a Western, Capatalist, Democratic, Middle Class member of society.
Back to Top
Scorpian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 323
  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 17:27
The British airways crucifix case was not the case I was referring to and had it been this case I would have related it as such.Confused
    Were I to say wearing a veil in my opinion is a sin and were I to say your religious festivals should be banned because to me they are pagan festivals then I'm sure you'd be outraged.
           Seems we've all to respect your faith and your religious values but you can demean our way of life upon a whim.
                      
       I don't reckon to participate in this topic of discussion any further for fear of speaking my mind .Angry
                      


Edited by Scorpian - 21-Mar-2007 at 17:35
Scorpian
Back to Top
Ovidius View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 20-Jun-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 422
  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 19:40
Yes, but reguardless of what you think of the Veil, as anything. You surely accept the right for people to wear it based on their beliefs?

Were you to say my religious festivals should be banned, because tehy are pagan, i would be outraged. This is EXACTLY why I am against the banning of Veils.

Seems we've all to respect your faith and your religious values but you can demean our way of life upon a whim.


Respect my Faith? Do you even know what my faith it?

Who is demeaning anyones way of life?

You don't have to respect peoples religious values, just respect their right to have faith and religious values within a tolerant society. Why? Because that is one of the principles the society is built upon.

If there is another case of such discrimination against a Catholic Girl, she should take it to the European Court or just to a British Court. She has had her rights breached and I certainly believe she has a right to wear a crucifix. I don't see why any Muslim would be offended by a Crucifix?
Back to Top
Adalwolf View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 08-Sep-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1230
  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 23:31
I think people should be allowed whatever the want, as long they wear something. Banning head scarves, to me, is clearly targeted at muslims, and will infringe upon their right to practice their religion, which is wrong. I disagree with this law/rule. 
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 03:17
This decision is clearly targeted at the muslims and relfects upon nothing by the racist direction Europe is headed in. Freedom is apparently only a right for you, its ok to take it away from anyone else. Its stinks of arrogance, naturally the European way is the better way, they know all right, oh great wonderful masters. This decision will do nothing but create division and mistrust between ethnic groups. No non-muslim European should have banned the Niqab. A Muslim European should have banned the Niqab. Because the Niqab is a ridiculous form of dress that has nothing to do with Islam. Tableekis get all carried away with acting like other Tableekis and completely miss the whole point of Islam. The Niqab is not modest. Especially in the West. And immodesty is unislamic. In addition the Niqab is completely unpractical. You can't see who you speaking to, you don't know whos under it, therefore the wearer can't work (I'm rather surprised they try to actually). I hate the Niqab but I'll be damned before I side against the muslims even if they are Wrong.


Also Hijab (veil) is not Niqab. Don't confuse them please.

Originally posted by Brain

If someone moves from Pakistan (example) to Britain, it is not Britain that must conform to Pakistani norms, but the Pakistani immigrant to British norms (if they want full acceptance into the community, anyway).

Pakistanis don't wear hijab or niqab bar the few tableekis. Why when people talk about hijab they always quote Pakistan. Pakistani women show their hair!


Sorry if I offended anyone*. I had to get it out of me. I just wanted to show how this is going to be received.


*Unless you deserved to be offended of course.
(Any Tableekis deserve to get offended)
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 05:31
I don't understand why people are getting so worked up over this. Muslimas are not being asked to walk the streets naked... Muslims are not asked to forsake their faith...
 
I am not intolerant of religions of convictions of anyone (exept, right-wing politics, I am defenately intolerant of them). The only thing I said is that I think schools and companies have the right to ask people who work for them to show their faces.
 
If they want to wear whatever in the streets, fine. If they want to wear a scarf covering their hair and face, fine. If they want to pray during workdays, fine. All I think is that when you want to cover your face in western society, you should not be surprised people reacting less than joyous to that.
 
What on earth is the problem with that? Why is this suddenly a debate about muslim-bashing? And what on earth does this have to do at muslims anyway? There are a lot of muslims who get on fine without covering their faces. In fact, I do not think that Islam specifically states that the face should be fully covered.
 
And Ovidius, the wearing of the veil is a voluntary action. If it is not a free choice, we should defenately ban it, because if women are forced to wear it, it is degradation and abuse. And that is illegal for sure.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 05:41
Well thats sort of what I was trying to say Elfi, if there was no perception of religious bias in this I would be in favour of it. However the fear is that this is the first step towards other (actual) intolerance, and that this is a victory for those with anti-muslim agendas. For that reason I cannot support this law because I cannot support anything that could potentially lead to the persecution of the muslims in europe.

I don't agree with people who wear the Niqab, but in this climate I cannot side against them when the people who mean us both harm are the vocally supporting this. Its all Us vs Them, and you have to stay with the Us cause you don't trust what the Them will do next.
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 06:28

Well, I am defenately not supportive of a general ban on face veils. I just do think schools and companies have the right to make a policy on that...

I guess this means that women who want to wear that veil and work anyway might have to settle for telephone jobs... I can imagine a company not wanting them behind the counter. Sorry if that is offensive, but I would not appreciate being helped at the counter by a person whose face is covered. I find it impolite in the extreme.
 
And I do still wonder at the women who wear these veils and do a full time job anyway. As far as I know, the same branch of Islam that wants women to cover up like that is also the branch that is not too enhusiastic about women working anyway...


Edited by Aelfgifu - 22-Mar-2007 at 06:31

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 06:46
Its the womens choice. Or is choice only limited to a list of approved things now?
 
Holland, the ultra socialist country where the government carefully regulates the spiritually degraded lives of the populace through legalization of Marijuana and prostitution supermarkets. - Vulkan02
 
 
 
???????????????????????
 
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 07:10
Those are Vulkans words not mine! I wash my hands of them...
 
I just found them funny.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.