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"300" and critical points in Human Histor

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Xshayathiya View Drop Down
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  Quote Xshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "300" and critical points in Human Histor
    Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 23:46
Originally posted by Hellios

Xshayathiya,
Your one-sided view mentions only the faults.


I know, sorry. I was having a bad day and that line didn't do much to make my mood any better. Embarrassed
"I like rice. Rice is great if you are hungry and want 2000 of something." - Mitch Hedberg
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 00:21
Originally posted by Xshayathiya

Originally posted by Hellios

Xshayathiya,
Your one-sided view mentions only the faults.


I know, sorry. I was having a bad day and that line didn't do much to make my mood any better. 
 
I agree the topic is provocative:
 
Originally posted by JuMong

1. "300 at Thermopyale" saves Western Values.
 
So not true. LOL
 
Anyhow, with so many threads about "300", this 1 might be retired, depending on how it goes.
 
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 01:46
Originally posted by Zheng-ru

JuMong, have you read the relevant history?

"Ravages of Muslim rule" did you say? The Muslims brought the Europeans advancements in science, music, literature, and architecture, et cetera. They were far more civilized than Europeans at the time. Tell me, what happened when the church burned "heretical writings"? The Muslims saved the works of Aristotle, Plato, and others. And were the inquisitions not the real ravages?

I remember one line in 300 which talked about how the Spartans were saving Greece from the "mysticism and barbarism" (or something similar) of Persia! Of Persia!? Ha! Not all the Greeks developed the same high levels of thought and logic and inquiry that the Athenians and few other city-states had done!



You seem to be confusing the issues. There were many different invasions by the Muslim world to the West at different times. Ottoman Empire was certainly a lot different than Umayyad invasion of 732. Ottomans were certainly lot more tolerant, but it's difficult to say how much Ottomans  really contributed in their entire rule, other than few ideas they saved which belonged to the West to begin with.

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"The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within." --Will Durant, The Story of Philosophy
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Eastern Europeans as well as India suffered greatly under Muslim rule,
and of course, I don't particularly relish what  has happened to Middle East because of religious dogmatism.  Muslim world clearly represent backwardness and anti-Western values.  If the Muslim world succeeded, modern world may look like Middle East right now.
If you believe Muslim world is superior, why not move to Iran? The fact that you are living in Western society clearly proves my point. Sorry, your defense of Muslim world does not wash.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1797687/posts


And the rest of Europe was not very prosperous under the Roman rule. Romans somewhat relied on plunder from the provinces.


You're simply wrong on this point. Modern Western World is based on Greek Hellenistic Culture  as adopted and transmitted by Romans. People under Roman rule prospered, just as modern world has prospered under U.S.  rule and belief in capitalism. i.e., S.Korea, Japan, Western Europe, and soon to be Eastern Europe.
 
That's why Muslims are leaving the oppressive Muslim world in droves. Your ideas are conceived in bias and not fact.



No, we would not be reading history in German. I will not bother to go any further.

Point is, yes, they were critical points, but the comments you wrote are not very critical.

- Zheng-ru


No need to go further, I concure.LOL


Edited by JuMong - 25-Mar-2007 at 01:59
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 20:42
JuMong, you said:

"3. "Battle of Tours" saves the West from the ravages of Muslim rule."

I am confusing the issue? You mentioned Tours only, not I, so I responded to that query! The West is what we are discussing here according to you! So why include India in this discussion? Did I say or even imply that the Muslim world is superior? To clarify for you, I say that it was once far superior. And if you still believe that the Muslims ravaged Europe but only use the Ottomans as examples then again your argument is flawed. You fail to recognize what they have brought the western world, which I kindly took the time to point out for you.

What makes you think I would move to Iran? Women are not treated equally there! And what makes you think I live in Western Society?

No, it's not. Have you read what Greek Hellenistic culture was like? Modern democracy is quite different from theirs and most western people follow religion, not fate. Romans prospered under Roman rule.

Ha! Modern world prospering under US "rule"? Have you been watching Fox News? Do you not know of how US business exploits people all over the world? Can you justify sweatshops? Capitalism has its flaws.

And you insult my intelligence by saying my ideas are biased and not fact! Even more so when you make such comments about Muslims. How do you blame all Muslims for what is happening in the Middle East? Of course the Americans are the innocent ones, right?

Tell me, where did you get all this information from, JuMong?

- Zheng-ru

Edited by Zheng-ru - 25-Mar-2007 at 20:55
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 00:17
Just a polite reminder about keeping things civil please, thanks JuMong.
 
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  Quote T. Ape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 01:29

This list is a horrible gauge of history. If I was going to make my own list of the 5 things that have changed the world, I would tentatively include these:

 

 

1. The fall of Constantinople. This siege was the catalyst of two world-transforming things. The world came to a realization that warfare had changed. With the thundering crash of the ancient walls came the end of an order that had lasted 1000 years. With the roaring Turkish cannons a revolution among the armies of the West was born. No longer could they rely on steel alone, it was now the age of gunpowder.

 

In addition, the gates of the East had been shut. No more could traders travel up the Sea of Azov, no more would the spices of Persia, China, and India reach European lands. Those in Europe now looked west in order to reach the East.

 

2. The coming of Jesus Christ unto the world. Whether or not you are a believer, you cannot deny the influence the teachings of this man and his apostles on the world. After his coming the world would forever be changed. Alliances would be forged, lands claimed, monarchs crowned, ingenuity based on, constitutions signed on, and wars fought for his name.

 

3. Similarly, the time Prophet Muhammad spent on earth is just as much a critical point in history. His teaching begat a world religion; one that makes many of the claims that Christianity has. It should be noted that Islam united a large ethnically diverse group that was spread across a desert into one stalwart force that swept all from the Indus to Bay of Biscay. No such large scale destruction and reconstruction in such little time can be credited to any other religious movement.

 

4. Shi Huangdi's capture of China ranks on this list. He was the first to create a state that resembles modern China. Before his campaigns the great expanses of today's China were just as divided as Europe is now. He brought this great mass of people together and laid out an enormous system to govern them all. While China did split into fragments later on in history, his actions echoed through history. It would always be the goal of all those who came after to reach the power and majesty of Shi Huangdi's China.

 

5. The foundation of the British East India Trading Company. This was the organization that conquered India, Hong Kong, Sri Lanka, and Singapore for the British Empire. It launched Britain as the world's first super-power and gave the expertise needed in colonizing the rest of the world. The actions of this company can be directly tied to the formation of "The Empire where the sun never set." It is said that Rome founded Western Culture. That may be true, but it was Britain, and her pet companies, that forced that culture upon the world.

 
 
 


Edited by T. Ape - 26-Mar-2007 at 01:31
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  Quote T. Ape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 01:38

Originally posted by Zheng-ru



Ha! Modern world prospering under US "rule"? Have you been watching Fox News? Do you not know of how US business exploits people all over the world? Can you justify sweatshops? Capitalism has its flaws.


- Zheng-ru

 

You are cherry picking here. Take countries such as South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Germany, and France. All of these courtiers are at the top of the world economy. Do you know why? Yep, that is right, America.

 

After WW2 America put a huge amount of funds into these countries. This enabled places like West Germany, France, and Germany to rebuild their war-torn lands.

 

Taiwan and South Korea are also in debt to America. Because America protected these countries with their substantial military, investors were free to put money into these 3rd world nations. Soon enough foreign money was coming that they were 1st world, not 3rd world establishments.

 

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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 06:22
What has Western values have to do with ancient history?
This is total irrelevant.
There are common things in ancient Greece regarding their values but every city was a different country. There are even different greek tribes.
Spartans were more, lets say, hard tribe. There were training for war. On the other hand Athens even they had a strong navy(see Salamina) they left a lot of things in HUmanity.
Any way what are the western values?
Can somebody tell me?
 
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 17:39
Yes, you are right T. Ape. I was bothered by the statement about the world prospering under US "rule". Many countries do prosper due to American intervention, however, it is unfortunate that America cannot be beneficial to all sides.

- Zheng-ru
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 17:42
There is the point Perikles!

What are the western values? They have changed significantly since the time of the Greeks.



"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
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