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"300" and critical points in Human Histor
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JuMong View Drop Down
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Posts: 89 		  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "300" and critical points in Human Histor
    Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 22:18
Not all cultures are alike, even bad movies like Frank Miller's "300" reminds us, however badly, that there are "critical points" in Human History. Certainly, one can argue the merits of how the world would have turned out had Spartan effort not succeed at Thermopylae.

Here are some of the Critical  Points in Human History:


1. "300 at Thermopyale" saves Western Values.

2. "Fall of Rome" leads to a Dark Age.

3. "Battle of Tours" saves the West from the ravages of Muslim rule.

4.  China closes it's door to the World under Ming Dynasty. China is passed by the West. Western Europe becomes the dominant power until WWII.

5.  "WWII: Pearl Harbor Attack". Had Japan not attacked Pearl Harbor,  We might be reading history written in German.

6. Attack on "9/11" and the ensuing Iraq War II. The outcome, yet to be decided...


Links:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/300/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_movie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermopylae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours


Edited by JuMong - 15-Mar-2007 at 22:24
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Zheng-ru View Drop Down
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Posts: 115 		  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 22:56
JuMong, have you read the relevant history?

"Ravages of Muslim rule" did you say? The Muslims brought the Europeans advancements in science, music, literature, and architecture, et cetera. They were far more civilized than Europeans at the time. Tell me, what happened when the church burned "heretical writings"? The Muslims saved the works of Aristotle, Plato, and others. And were the inquisitions not the real ravages?

I remember one line in 300 which talked about how the Spartans were saving Greece from the "mysticism and barbarism" (or something similar) of Persia! Of Persia!? Ha! Not all the Greeks developed the same high levels of thought and logic and inquiry that the Athenians and few other city-states had done!

And the rest of Europe was not very prosperous under the Roman rule. Romans somewhat relied on plunder from the provinces.

No, we would not be reading history in German. I will not bother to go any further.

Point is, yes, they were critical points, but the comments you wrote are not very critical.

- Zheng-ru
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Posts: 188 		  Quote Xshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 14:59
The battle of Thermopylae saved western values? If anything modern western values are more influenced by ancient Persian values than ancient Spartan values.
 
Spartan values: Paganism, male centricism, warriorism (although I'm not that last one is a word)
Persian values: Monotheism, Religious and cultural tolerance, intellectualism
 
you must either not know the facts or have a wierd definition of western values.
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 15:12
No, because of the Spartans western values, such as democracy and freedom survived. Without the Spartans Greece would have been absorbed into the Persian Empire, and all the Greek innovations would have been lost, or not invented under Persian domination. 
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 18:25
Spartan values: Paganism, male centricism, warriorism (although I'm not that last one is a word).....
 
.....bravery,frugality
 
 
Persian values: Monotheism, Religious and cultural tolerance, intellectualism....
 
.....Imperialism,Imperial show off


Edited by Spartakus - 16-Mar-2007 at 18:26
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--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Zheng-ru View Drop Down
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Posts: 115 		  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 22:56
I agree with Adalwolf and Spartakus, but it is clear that both empires had their strong aspects. The Spartans at Thermopylae contributed to the preservation of "western values", but I cannot say that Persian values were inferior.

- Zheng-ru
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 02:17

The Spartans at Thermopylae were carrying out a rearguard action. For gods sake Athens still burnt. The Greek victory at Salamis was way more important.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 18:44
Battle of Tours would have affected France's history, but not the rest of Europe's.

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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 18:57
Originally posted by Adalwolf

No, because of the Spartans western values, such as democracy and freedom survived. 
 
LOL
 
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 18-Mar-2007 at 18:58
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 19:50
Those may have not been Spartan values, but the because of the heroic Spartan defense at Thermopolyae they survived in Athens. 
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 19:56
No, the Spartans were beaten, like Sparten mentioned Salamis was far more crucial and, Athens was still raised (and rebuilt).  Thermopylae is just good propaganda.
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2007 at 20:23
Well yeah, but their defense inspired the greeks to resist and eventually to defeat the Persians. 
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 20:48
Originally posted by JuMong

1. "300 at Thermopyale" saves Western Values.
 
Haha, that's so untrue.
That battle did not "save Western values" and you're just giving people offended by the movie a chance to blow steam.
 
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 22:42

What do you mean, Hellios? I mean, if Persia conquered Greece... wouldn't their influence make the Western culture more... oritental?
     
   
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 23:16
Originally posted by pekau

What do you mean, Hellios? I mean, if Persia conquered Greece... wouldn't their influence make the Western culture more... oritental?
 
Your post shows some ignorance on 3 levels:
1. Persia didn't "conquer Greece" but parts of it.
2. Greece conquered Persia, all of it, and Hellenized it to a certain extent.
3. Western systems of government are generally not closer to the Persian system than the Greek system are.


Edited by Hellios - 20-Mar-2007 at 10:45
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 23:22
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by pekau

What do you mean, Hellios? I mean, if Persia conquered Greece... wouldn't their influence make the Western culture more... oritental?
 
Your post shows some ignorance on 3 levels:
1. Persia didn't "conquer Greece" but parts of it.
2. Greece conquered Persia, all of it, and Hellenized it to a certain extent.
3. Western systems of government are generally not closer to the Persian system than the Greek system.
 
 
I was looking at a scenario where Persia does conquer all Greece.
 
Oh, and Persia and Greece had similar system of government? I didn't know that. I though Greeks were more democratic while Persia was under absolute monarchy....
     
   
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 23:35
Originally posted by pekau

Oh, and Persia and Greece had similar system of government? I didn't know that. 
 
No, they didn't have the same system, just common elements.
 
Originally posted by pekau

I though Greeks were more democratic while Persia was under absolute monarchy...
 
Not all Greek city-states practiced direct democracy & Persians had their system of human rights.
 
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Posts: 188 		  Quote Xshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 14:45
Originally posted by pekau

The Athenians were more democratic while Persia and other Greek city states were under absolute monarchy....
 
fixed. Even in the athenian system, only "citizens" could vote, and that constituted maybe a 10% of the total population. Even then, most of the military and government was appointed, and only a few were actually elected.
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Posts: 2120 		  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 15:18
Originally posted by Hellios

[
Persians had their system of human rights.
 


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Hellios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2007 at 17:12
Xshayathiya,
Your one-sided view mentions only the faults.
 
Maharbbal,
Yes, Persians had a system of human rights thanks to Cyrus.  Some of his successors followed his ways less than others.
 
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