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Topic: Azerbaijan Turk in Russian army in anatolia Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 12:39 |
I want to ask if there is a huge number of Azerbaijan Turk in Russian army which entered to the Van and other eastern cities of Trkey during world war 1 which slaughter of eastern muslim populatian happened?cause a Russian armies' Armenians defender claimed that also invader army contains Turk but I don't think a army would contain any ethnic that is from the same ethnicity when there is decided to invade their same language speaking brothers' conutry.the source is unreliable an american university source where historians claim clash of civilazitions nonsenses to create a reason for middleeast rich energy sources corruption.thanks.
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Zagros
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 12:42 |
Azaris were historical enemies of Osmanli, Osmanli invaded Iranian Azarbaijan in WW1 and commited much atrocity - so maybe they wanted revenge.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 13:24 |
Do you have any sources?
It's highgly unlikely as Azerbaycan had formed an independant democratic republic in 1918, they became the centre of Turkic revolutionaries and resistance movements. They gave woman's suffrage and in the short lived state were very sucessfull.
After the Soviets entered and occupied Azerbaycan, the leaders and intellects fled before the Soviets could kill them, their base moved to the resistance war fighting Turkey.
The two were in cahoots, Azerbaycan and Turkiye Turks have had very close relations pollitically since the early 19th Century. The Shia-Sunni rift between Azerbaycan and Turkiye Turks started softning since Nadir Shah, the Qajars were relatives of the Ottomans, Sultan AbdulHamit Han II did alot to build ties in the Islamic world, later Turkish troops were sent to Baku to help fight against the Russians, then the Russian threat bought the two closer together.
Edited by Bulldog - 11-Mar-2007 at 13:27
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 14:52 |
What is this nonsense? Azerbaijan the center of Turkic revolutionary movement?
When Azerbaijan was established in 1918 it was overwhelmingly a
socialist revolutionary state, with Bolsheviks holding more than half
the seats in the parliament.
To Answer our guest. Since what is not Azerbaijan was under the Russian
rule, it is more than likely that they conscripted into the Russian
army. As a soldier you do what your general tells you to do, not what
pleases your heart.
Edited by mamikon - 11-Mar-2007 at 14:53
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 15:36 |
Man this might sound weird but Bulldog and Mamikon are both right
Edited by xi_tujue - 11-Mar-2007 at 15:37
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 16:23 |
If I was you I'd go press the "edit" button and remove the word "nonsense" from your last post.
When Azerbaijan was established it was hardly a "socialist revolutionary state", it supported a Turkic Union and support to muslim states fighting resistance, like the Musavats.
The socialist elements were those like "Sultan Galiyev" who were working within the system to unite the muslim's in the Soviet Empire.
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 16:42 |
Originally posted by bulldog
When Azerbaijan was established it was hardly a "socialist
revolutionary state", it supported a Turkic Union and support to muslim
states fighting resistance, like the Musavats. |
Bolsheviks and Mensheviks had more than 70% of the seats. Even the
Dashnaks had more seats in the parliament than the Musavatists.
Oh, btw, what is the "Turkic Union"
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 16:53 |
Are you joking, Musavats were the majority and Prime minister.
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 17:03 |
Any of the sources I have seen regarding the Russian Revolution state
that when established Azerbaijan was mainly a socialist state.
Even wiki agrees with this.
It is only after Enver's Army of Islam reached Baku did Musavatists become a majority (mainly because all the others had left).
Quoting from Wiki:
The Commune was formed by 85 Social Revolutionaries and Left Social Revolutionaries, 48 Bolsheviks, 36 Dashnaks, 18 Musavatists and 13 Mensheviks. Stepan Shaumyan, a Bolshevik, and Prokopius Dzhaparidze,
a leftist SR, were elected Chairmen of the Council of People's
Commissioners of the Commune of Baku. The Baku Soviet was at odds with
emergent Transcausian Federation and was supportive of Bolshevik
governments in most areas, except peace treaty with Ottoman Empire.
Uneasy truce existed between different faction, until Treaty of
Brest-Litovsk exposed weakness of the coalition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic
Also, you have not answered me. What is the "Turkic Union"
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 17:17 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Any of the sources I have seen regarding the Russian Revolution state
that when established Azerbaijan was mainly a socialist state.
Even wiki agrees with this.
It is only after Enver's Army of Islam reached Baku did Musavatists become a majority (mainly because all the others had left).
Quoting from Wiki:
The Commune was formed by 85 Social Revolutionaries and Left Social Revolutionaries, 48 Bolsheviks, 36 Dashnaks, 18 Musavatists and 13 Mensheviks. Stepan Shaumyan, a Bolshevik, and Prokopius Dzhaparidze,
a leftist SR, were elected Chairmen of the Council of People's
Commissioners of the Commune of Baku. The Baku Soviet was at odds with
emergent Transcausian Federation and was supportive of Bolshevik
governments in most areas, except peace treaty with Ottoman Empire.
Uneasy truce existed between different faction, until Treaty of
Brest-Litovsk exposed weakness of the coalition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic
Also, you have not answered me. What is the "Turkic Union"
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since when is wikipedia a reliable souce?
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 17:36 |
its not, but its teh easiest to communicate with. If I give a title of
a book, I really doubt he would have it, and thus would not be able to
verify me assertion.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 17:58 |
Wikipedia also says, Musavat party held the majority.
- On the Religious Frontier: Tsarist Russia and Islam in the Caucasus by Firouzeh Mostashari P. 144
- ^ Ethnic Nationalism and the Fall of Empires by Aviel Roshwald, page 100
Musavat were the majority and reason for the founding of the democratic republic, Emin Resulzade was the ideological leader and headed the national council.
A Turkic union, is the idea of a union of Turkic states and other non-Turkic Central Asian states such as Tajikistan to form a pollitical union.
Edited by Bulldog - 11-Mar-2007 at 18:01
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:02 |
can you provide the link?
Wiki says Musavat became the ruling party of Azerbiajan 1918-1920. But when the republic was established it was not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Party_(Azerbaijan)
Edited by mamikon - 11-Mar-2007 at 18:03
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:05 |
Originally posted by bulldog
A Turkic union, is the idea of a union of Turkic states and other
non-Turkic Central Asian states such as Tajikistan to form a pollitical
union. |
Right, you mean pan-Turkism (Turanism). I have never read about any Turkic Union, only pan-Turanism.
Also, when it was formed, Azerbaijan was hardly "the leader" or "the
center" as it was struggling to survive two wars (with Armenia,
Georgia), and avoid Persian and Bolshevik agression.
Edited by mamikon - 11-Mar-2007 at 18:07
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:13 |
Mamikon
Wiki says Musavat became the ruling party of Azerbiajan 1918-1920.
Yes, The Azerbaijan Democratic Republic was short lived, from 1918-1920 and Musavat were in charge untill Soviet occupation.
Mamikon
Right, you mean pan-Turkism (Turanism). I have never read about any Turkic Union, only pan-Turanism.
Well read more and you'll find out.
Pan-Turanism is a ridiculous ideal which proposes to unite people is deams "Turanoid" into one super-state. That's Turkic peoples, Hungarians, Fins, Mongols and so on.
Turkic Union, is based upon Turkic countries forming a union of independant states. You can attend the next Turkic summit in Azerbaycan and find out more.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:17 |
Originally posted by bulldog
Yes, The Azerbaijan Democratic Republic was short lived, from 1918-1920 and Musavat were in charge untill Soviet occupation.
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True, I never objected to this. However our argument was whether they
were the majority when the state of Azerbaijan was founded in
1918...and they were not.
Originally posted by bulldog
Well read more and you'll find out.
Pan-Turanism is a ridiculous ideal which proposes to unite people
is deams "Turanoid" into one super-state. That's Turkic peoples,
Hungarians, Fins, Mongols and so on.
Turkic Union, is based upon Turkic countries forming a union of
independant states. You can attend the next Turkic summit in Azerbaycan
and find out more. |
Musavatists were keen on Pan-Turanism not a "Turkic Union" a term you probably made up earlier today...
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:40 |
Mamikon
True, I never objected to this. However our argument was whether they were the majority when the state of Azerbaijan was founded in 1918
They founded the state, Musavat leader Resulzade, he set up a number of newspapers and magazines in a number of countries which have remained infuential till this day.
Mamikon
Musavatists were keen on Pan-Turanism not a "Turkic Union" a term you probably made up earlier today...
They were Pan-Turkish, Pan-Islamist, Democratic and Socialist.
Well carry on thinking I made up the idea of a "Turkic Union of states" today...
Edited by Bulldog - 11-Mar-2007 at 18:41
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 18:50 |
Originally posted by bulldog
They founded the state, Musavat leader Resulzade, he set up a number of
newspapers and magazines in a number of countries which have remained
infuential till this day. |
Right...they founded and became the minority in the parliament?
you still havent shown me the link stating that they formed the largest
faction in the Azeri government when the state was founded in 1918.
Originally posted by bulldog
They were Pan-Turkish, Pan-Islamist, Democratic and Socialist.
Well carry on thinking I made up the idea of a "Turkic Union of states" today... |
Those are four diametrically opposed ideologies...
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Bulldog
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 19:00 |
Mamikon
Right...they founded and became the minority in the parliament?
No, they founded and became the majority.
Mamikon
Those are four diametrically opposed ideologies...
Everything in its "extreme" is opposed, even the same ideology in its extreme form can be a world apart from non-extreme version.
Today Labour is more Conservative than the Tories in UK policies, when movements try to move to the centre they can often overlap and have alot in common.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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mamikon
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Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 19:09 |
Originally posted by bulldog
No, they founded and became the majority. |
you keep stating this, but I see no source
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