The reas&#111;n for antisemtism...

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 10:26

[QUOTE=Bulldog]

Where did they flee too? yep Islamic lands, you even yourself admit muslims couldn't bare these tribal extremists who mixed religion into their clandestine codes.

You missed my point. I'm not saying Almohad and Almoravid represented Islam as a whole. But the fact is some Muslim did persecute the Jews. I'm not saying "oh! look two examples proving Jews were persecuted by the Muslims for ever". It would be stupid generalization. But please, don't make another generalization by saying "the Jews have never been persecuted in the Muslim world".
Saying that they fled to other muslim places is not only wrong (most of them went to Sicily although a lot indeed went in Egypt) but it once more misses the point. Were did the Jews expulsed from Portugal went? Guess many of them went to Brazil, which at the time was a Portuguese colony, does it mean they weren't expulsed from Portugal?

Once more I'm not saying the Ottoman has systematic anti-jews policies, which would be absolutly wrong. I'm simply saying, even them had some sometimes. There's no big deal about it.

Do you have any evidence to support this "subjective" view, you can make up any kind of conspiracy to "why" he did this.

Sources

: I hope you can read French otherwise I intend to make a summary of it this Spring in English. It is truely an excellent book: Geraud Poumar�de, Pour en finir avec la croisade, mythe et r�alit� de la lutte contre les Turcs aux XVIe et XVIIe si�cles. There you have a complete chapter on the reasons and dereasons of the jewish policy of the pope specially in regard with Ancona, which should have been a sort of Ragusa or Livorno but that one pope spoiled.

Maybe for "Islamophobes" its hard to swallow but its not a legend its a reality.

You're maybe right I should have said: The welcoming Muslim world was little more than a rosy legend, but it was still better than Christian Europe.

Look at the expulsions of Jews. I do and (just for the sake of it I'll coment it because this list although globally correct is a bit raw)

612 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
642 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire (you mean just 30 years latter, so it didn't really work).
855 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy Exclamation

Of course no Italy in those days
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France Whether they kept coming back or.. they never left.
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy Exclamation

Of course no Italy in these days
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa Never applied Genoa was and remains one of the most welcoming place in Europe for everybody (no ghetto, no fundaco)
1496 ------------------------------Naples
1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples Didn't work
1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague Same comment and you have many others.
1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States (that's the one I was refering to)
1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux Shocked

Once again if it is comparing you want, I couldn't agree more, the Muslim world was more welcoming. But please don't try to pretend that the dozens of Muslim polities that have existed since the 7th century were all welcoming to the Jews. If you want example of antisemitism in Europe I can give you billions but denying the muslim world had it fair share of it is clueless.

Antisemitism is not a European exception, look even Pekau is antisemite Tongue

Edited by Maharbbal - 09-Mar-2007 at 10:29

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Bulldog

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 11:47

Mahabbal

You missed my point. I'm not saying Almohad and Almoravid represented Islam as a whole. But the fact is some Muslim did persecute the Jews.

Your correct.

Marhabbal

Saying that they fled to other muslim places is not only wrong (most of them went to Sicily although a lot indeed went in Egypt)

160,000 Jews were expelled from Spain after the conquest, 90-100,000 of them found refuge in Ottoman lands.

Marhabbal

Geraud Poumar�de, Pour en finir avec la croisade, mythe et r�alit� de la lutte contre les Turcs aux XVIe et XVIIe si�cles. There you have a complete chapter on the reasons and dereasons of the jewish policy of the pope specially in regard with Ancona, which should have been a sort of Ragusa or Livorno but that one pope spoiled.

Oh the myths and realities struggles of Turks in the 16th & 17th Centuries.

Look, if a European ruler had written such an order to the Pope, he/she would be heralded as the defender of humanity. When somebody outside the fold does it, people search for "excuses", he only did it to get this or that, he didn't really care, he's still really an evil, despotic tyrant for afterall he's a Turk.

Suleyman the Magnificent didn't just write this letter to the Pope. He declared a further Law to stop the persecution of Jews via "Blood Libels" decreeing that all accusations of the slaughter of Christian children by Jews be referred to the Imperial Divan where the courts would expose these lies. Under his reign, Churches, Mosques and Synagogues were built on the same road, not only Mosque's were built also Synagogues were, there was a high level of Muslim-Jewish tolerance.

Marhabbal

Antisemitism is not a European exception, look even Pekau is antisemite

With the arrival of the Conquistadors and Catholicism came some of the anti-semitic sentiments from the old-world.

�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 12:08

Good points well made Bulldog.

pekau

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 12:30

Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by pekau

Is there any other reasons why Jewish race is so condemned in many parts of the world?

Asking people to name reasons why somebody would hate Jews is silly.

Know thy enemy...

Yes, I know you consider them enemies.

The trend is apparent:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16978&KW=

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15894&KW=

What? Ah, crap. I am not completely anitsemetic!!!

!!~

To answer the first post, I have been watching some antisemtic movies... and I was just wondering if calling people Jew was offending any Jewish people...

And as for second post, I was just wandering how people managed to find excuses how massacre of Jewish people during WWII could be denied. Furthermore, some news claimed that some Muslims denied holucost... so that's why. I do have some Jewish friends that lost their grandparents because of Nazism. I have nothing against Jewish race.

And to counter third post, I was studying the quantum theory at that time, and I just noticed that most of the contributor of the qunatum theory were from Germany. If I hated Jewish race, I wouldn't be praising Einstein, would I?

I must admit that some Jewish people in general are unpleasant. Now, before jumping into conlcusion... hear me out! I am not against Jewish race, just some people. They are the the great survivors. Ever since their nation was sacked by the Roman Empire, they have been wonderers around the world. They spread all over the world, desparate for survivial and to the faith that they would be saved in the future. I respect and admire that will. However, the necessary for survival made them (Not all, I assure you) very... selfish. They generally don't make any donations... unless the donation itself somehow helps the Jewish people. They avoid social life, thinking that they are superior people (Chosen people). They do not show compassion towards others. And that's not just based on others' comment. I have experienced it personally when I was in Europe.

France is another example. Look at the separatists in Quebec. I have seen how some French considering themselves as superior and civilized people. It disgusts me. Although I have nothing against French race, for I have a couple French friends that I talk to every week... *(MSN is a wonderful technology) but the tendency for certain nation's character is something that I cannot tolerate. It's important to perserve and maintain a unique culture, but we live in a world where people interact each other more for mankind's survival. (Globalization and internationalism.) We either have to work together or we will all die. I just don't see how arrogant they are, thinking that world cooperation isn't necessary and all...

This is my honest opinion. Sorry about this attitude, Jewish and French members, but I have nothing against you guys as long as your character is tolerant, not as arrogant and selfish. I am angry at people, not the race o any other crap that Hitler was talking about...

And I don't think that goes against AE rule anyway... unless someone points out. It's sad, but it cannot be avoided.

Sincerely,

pekau

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 12:32

Originally posted by pinguin

I believe the reason is quite simple: envy.

Pinguin

I agree 100%

I was going to say jealousy, but envy is better.

pekau

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 12:35

Oh and by the way, antisemetism is low in Far East simply because there are hardly any Jewish people in Far East.

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Maharbbal

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 12:37

160,000 Jews were expelled from Spain after the conquest, 90-100,000 of them found refuge in Ottoman lands.

I was talking of Tunisian jews in the 12th century... misunderstood each other.

Oh the myths and realities struggles of Turks in the 16th & 17th Centuries.

As the title of his book says, the other wants to get rid of the mythes linked to the struggle against the Turks. He want to end the Crusade arguing that this word cannot describe the numerous wars against the Ottomans after 1392.

Quite correct. But the letter of Suleyman had little chance to change anything. It is a bit as saying Louis XVI of France was a republican because he supported the American revolution. He only did it to bother the Brits.

With the arrival of the Conquistadors and Catholicism came some of the anti-semitic sentiments from the old-world.

Wrong! There are antisemite texts written by the Aztecs before 1492. No just joking.

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Maharbbal

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 13:26

Originally posted by pekau

Pffffffffffffffffffffffff Pekau! Pekau! Pekau! Sometimes you'd deserved a good slap.
First there is of course no Jewish race.
Well about the selfishness thing you'd better consider the Rockefeller foundation or Michael Bloomberg 's philantropy. That said it is true that Jewish people tend to donate a lot to Jewish charities but this could also be said of muslims so...

Originally posted by pekau

France is another example. Look at the separatists in Quebec. I have seen how some French considering themselves as superior and civilized people. It disgusts me. Although I have nothing against French race, for I have a couple French friends that I talk to every week... *(MSN is a wonderful technology) but the tendency for certain nation's character is something that I cannot tolerate. It's important to perserve and maintain a unique culture, but we live in a world where people interact each other more for mankind's survival. (Globalization and internationalism.) We either have to work together or we will all die. I just don't see how arrogant they are, thinking that world cooperation isn't necessary and all...

There is even less of a French race then of a Jewish one. I fail to see the point with Quebec and your general comment prove nothing but a complete ignorance.

Originally posted by pekau

This is my honest opinion. Sorry about this attitude, Jewish and French members, but I have nothing against you guys as long as your character is tolerant, not as arrogant and selfish. I am angry at people, not the race o any other crap that Hitler was talking about...

And I don't think that goes against AE rule anyway... unless someone points out. It's sad, but it cannot be avoided.

If I was to follow your way of reasoning I'd say that Korean people (or whereever you are from) are stupid, nice people but stupid. Pekau the day you'll understand that generalizations are the greatest danger in social sciences , we'll talk more about it. For now I'd advise you to stick to asking questions for thing you don't know and debate for thing you do know but stop stating things about things you have no idea of.

Best

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pekau

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 15:10

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Originally posted by pekau

Slap taken. I wasn't thinking straight.

It hurts...~

Originally posted by Maharbbal

There is even less of a French race then of a Jewish one. I fail to see the point with Quebec and your general comment prove nothing but a complete ignorance.

Same comment as the one before. Ahh... I can't be condemned for the same mistake again...

Originally posted by Maharbbal

[

And I don't think that goes against AE rule anyway... unless someone points out. It's sad, but it cannot be avoided.

I am not sure that such way of thinking it stupid, Maharbbal. It is correct that historical generalization is dangerous. Think of this way. It's incorrect for one to judge the students based on what school's reputation, but we do. In fact, the students' future would be different depending on what school they are attending. It is impossible to find every single people and judge their qualities. That's why I made the generalization. And remember, it's only generalization. Once I meet the people, the attitude towards them would change depending on their character. We should treat our dad's boss the same as how we treat the homeless people on the streets... but do we honestly do that? No, we don't. We would obviously show more respects to our dad's boss. When people say that we should treat everyone equal... that's a nice thought. But it's idealistic. That's the reason why my attitude towards French and Jewish people remains the same. It is our nature for us to treat people differently.

Of course, we should draw the line so that one does not turn out to be Hitler. Balance is the key to everything. Too much or too little turns out to be harmful.

Stop stating things about things you have no idea of? I must disagree. Stating things that I am not sure of would alert the others, like you for instance. Then you try to convince me that enabled me to find my mistake and learn from it. It's ok to stay stupid, but we shouldn't stay stupid. I will not call it arrogance. I would say that I was mistaken. Discouraging people by calling people stupid and arrogant without knowing anything about me seems not only harsh, but yourself being arrogant and stupid as well. We all have our strength and weakness, Maharbbal. The reason why we coexist to to strengthen our weakness by helping each other, hence making everyone to have great chance to survive. Please remember this, unless I made yet another mistake...

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 15:20

Originally posted by pekau

What? Ah, crap. I am not completely anitsemetic!!!

!!~

No, just exceptionally Rascist.

To answer the first post, I have been watching some antisemtic movies... and I was just wondering if calling people Jew was offending any Jewish people...

Why would it be? Unless you are expressing it in an offensive mannor.

This is a big excuse for most racists in the world. Either its 'I'm not racist, but....' followed by some exceptionally racist comment. Or its, I'm not racist, look I have Black/Jewish/Muslim/homosexual friends/respect their history/respect individuals within said race.

I can praise Ghandi and still be completely biggoted and racist towards India.

I must admit that some Jewish people in general are unpleasant.

I must admit that some of every community are in general unpleasant. Any Race, Any Sexuality, Male or Female, even most animals, have some unpleasant members.

Now, before jumping into conlcusion... hear me out! I am not against Jewish race, just some people. They are the the great survivors. Ever since their nation was sacked by the Roman Empire, they have been wonderers around the world. They spread all over the world, desparate for survivial and to the faith that they would be saved in the future. I respect and admire that will. However, the necessary for survival made them (Not all, I assure you) very... selfish. They generally don't make any donations... unless the donation itself somehow helps the Jewish people. They avoid social life, thinking that they are superior people (Chosen people). They do not show compassion towards others. And that's not just based on others' comment. I have experienced it personally when I was in Europe.

This is where your biggoted side comes out. You believe 'Jews' to be selfish as a race, as if it is a characteristic. I assure you that is seriously not the case. Why do you single out Jews as well? What about all the extremely selfish members of society? Russian Oligarchs for instance, stealing money from the Russian people and then using it to fund football clubs etc? I think that there are Very selfish people within most communities, I actually believe that MOST PEOPLE are rather selfish.

Jews do not express their chosen status at all. I've never met any Jew that has attempted to prove his status as 'chosen'. Certainly not stronger than Jehovas Witnesses or other faiths where being singled out is central to the faith. I think all faiths in one way or another have some sort of belief in the members being superior.

'They do not show compassion towards others'. That is complete crap.

I have experienced it personally when I was in Europe. - Experiences what? A few individual Jews, or you met EVERY Jew at once? Did you not experience the same characteristics within all the people of Europe. Parisians are the most selfish people I've seen, with their blase attitude to life. Yet I would say it was a characteristic of Parisian people or French people. Nor would I single out a 'race'.

France is another example. Look at the separatists in Quebec. I have seen how some French considering themselves as superior and civilized people.

You misunderstand the whole issue. They do not see themselves as Superior. They are a community that is being swamped by another community, its no suprise that this harbours nationalism and strong self belief as a community. Without that spirit, their culture would totally disapeer in Canada.

The Civilisation thing is, I believe, a Misintepretation. They may believe that French Culture is more civilised, but to believe that they as a race are more civilised? Please, I have never heard any Frenchmen express such a thing.

It disgusts me. Although I have nothing against French race, for I have a couple French friends that I talk to every week... *(MSN is a wonderful technology) but the tendency for certain nation's character is something that I cannot tolerate.

So you are attributing Quebec characteristics upon the French in France? Thats an ignorant way of looking at the French people. Thats like me blaiming you for the North Koreans or somehow hating Koreans because of the Koreans in a certain town in the UK. Please.

It's important to perserve and maintain a unique culture, but we live in a world where people interact each other more for mankind's survival. (Globalization and internationalism.) We either have to work together or we will all die. I just don't see how arrogant they are, thinking that world cooperation isn't necessary and all...

They are not arrogant. They are just trying to preserve their cultural independence, unlike other nations that are merely submitting to a banal omniculture. So they have a certain amount of nationalism and patriotic pride, so what? You will find the same sort of arrogant spirit within any nation, if you look in the right places.

You have just mentioned that you have got something against these people. You are the arrogant one, believing you have a superior edge and are able to understand unique characteristics within different cultures and races.

Are you a master of French? Do you know everything about French Culture? Anthropologists believe you need to have lived in a place 2years or more to 'understand' it, have you been in France for 2years? As a Flaneur or something? Are you clued up on France's historical development, its literature, its cuisine and its social issues? I presume the answer is no. So your generalised opinions are extremely subjective and based on nothing more than a few scant experiences. Yet you arrogantly assume to 'know' things and place these sweeping assumptions upon people.

I presume you are young and will learn more about life in general as you grow up. Individuals are important, Communities.. Making baseless assumptions about races is ridiculous and has no place in an enlightened world.

pekau

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 15:23

Originally posted by Ovidius

Originally posted by pekau

What? Ah, crap. I am not completely anitsemetic!!!

!!~

No, just exceptionally Rascist.

To answer the first post, I have been watching some antisemtic movies... and I was just wondering if calling people Jew was offending any Jewish people...

Why would it be? Unless you are expressing it in an offensive mannor.

I must admit that some Jewish people in general are unpleasant.

I must admit that some of every community are in general unpleasant. Any Race, Any Sexuality, Male or Female, even most animals, have some unpleasant members.

France is another example. Look at the separatists in Quebec. I have seen how some French considering themselves as superior and civilized people.

See previous post for commment.

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 16:00

Originally posted by Maharbbal

...With the arrival of the Conquistadors and Catholicism came some of the anti-semitic sentiments from the old-world.Wrong! There are antisemite texts written by the Aztecs before 1492. No just joking.

How come? I am really curious. That's impossible!

Aztecs and Jews didn't know each other before 1492 !

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 16:31

pinguin, he said he was joking.

pekau, I would recommend you pay attention to what Maharbbal and Ovidius are saying. It's going to help you a lot in life, not just historical debates, if you'll be more careful with generalizations based on a few chance encounters.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 18:41

Originally posted by pinguin

I believe the reason is quite simple: envy.

Pinguin

I hold the same view, they have been victims of their own success. Ofcourse convenient excuses would be used to harness and foster hate towards them, slogans such as the 'killers of Christ' etc

Their biggest handicap though is that they are perceived to be a monolithic block, independent of their histories.

Maharbbal