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The reason for antisemtism...

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The reason for antisemtism...
    Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:04
I wonder why antisemitism was so popular, even today somtimes. From the exile of Jewish people in the ancient times, to the release of the movie "Borat", I wonder why people hate Jews so much. I mean, out of hundreds and thousands of races, why Jewish people?
 
I know the reasons why Islamic people hate them due to historical and belief differences, and some are jealous of the Jewish people's success in job professions and other economical successes. Is there any other reasons why Jewish race is so condemned in many parts of the world?
     
   
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:18
I think this is a seriously complicated issue, that is not easily answered.

I think the reasons change over a long period of time. From religious reasons, to social and economic reasons. Even political reasons.

I think although there are similarities between different areas, each has to be taken individually, because anti-semitism has different roots, different protagonists and the Jewish population have different situations in different regions of the world.

As someone who has studied Modern East European fascism, I've obviously studied the growth of fascism in this region. But i do not pretend to know the situation in other regions.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:33
I believe the reason is quite simple: envy.
 
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 13:59
Originally posted by pekau

Is there any other reasons why Jewish race is so condemned in many parts of the world?
 
Asking people to name reasons why somebody would hate Jews is silly.
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 14:40
You can ask the same question of why any other group is hated (Gypsies and Muslims for example).  The reason is ignorance, indoctrination, dogma and jealousy perpetuated by media propaganda as that against Jews, Gypsies (Nazi et al) and now Muslims (current media).  By the way, some points from your post were pretty ignorant.
 
FYI: Sascha Baron Cohen (Borat) is himself Jewish.  and his film depicted anti-semites, such as Borat, as backward, incestuous, ignorant oafs.
 
I know the reasons why Islamic people hate them due to historical and belief differences
 
That would be hard-line Catholic Christians who blame jews for killing Jesus; you are disinformed; Muslims don't hate Jews and accept Judaism and Christianity. How else would you explain the oldest existing Jewish community, anywhere, being in an Islamic country?  The hate of extreme Muslims is not with Jews or Judaism, but with Israel -  and the disapproval of rational Muslims and non-Muslims (such as myself) is the treatment of Palestinians by Israeli governments and the subsequent hypocrisy of their agenda.  This disapproval is conveniently lumped into the anti-Semitism of what I described formerly, when in reality the two are completely unrelated.
 
 
 
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:11
don't muslims accept Judaism because Abraham is a Prophet as was Moses?

They believe Jews were holders of the Divine truth but got it wrong or misinterpreted it.

Anyhow the connections between Judaism and Islam are rather striking.

Much of the current Islamic anti-semitism is certainly based on Israel. But the manifestations of this are rather weird - just look at the Holocaust denial conference.
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:12
Originally posted by pinguin

I believe the reason is quite simple: envy.
 
Pinguin


I'm sorry but that is stupidly simplistic and really ignores much of the Historical development of anti-semitism in different regions.

Envy is actually not part of initial booms in German Anti-semitism, not as I analyse anyhow.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:18
I don't think it is stupid at all. No sir.
 
Just try to imagine it.
 
Imagine Nazis proclaiming a "superior race" and finding half the brighest minds and also a good portion of the most successful enterpreneurs were of another group.
 
The reason why the Jews were hated in Middle Ages Spain and Europe in general was because they were more educated and richer (IN AVERAGE) that the rest of the population.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:26
In the middle ages it was just religious intolerance, the Jews AND Muslims were either converted and evicted [and killed] from Spain. many Jews settled into Muslim lands from Spain.
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:50
Originally posted by pinguin

I don't think it is stupid at all. No sir.
 
Just try to imagine it.
 
Imagine Nazis proclaiming a "superior race" and finding half the brighest minds and also a good portion of the most successful enterpreneurs were of another group.
 
The reason why the Jews were hated in Middle Ages Spain and Europe in general was because they were more educated and richer (IN AVERAGE) that the rest of the population.
 
Pinguin
 


No, that is not why they were hated in Middle ages Spain, its just Anochronistic. Just because they were richer and more educated does not mean its why they are hated. It was much more to do with Faith than it was to do with Materialism. Unless you believe that Spanish citizens, in their most religious period, were somehow faithless?

So you think Nazi's anti-Semitism was to do with Jews being major entrepreneurs? The Jews being Rich caused the holocaust then?

I think an oversimplification.

Zagros, very true. I read some material recently about Wallachia, from the eigthteenth century and from the 20th century. Apparently Sephardic Jews were still there in both of these periods and still reasonable distinct from other Jewish groups and the rest of the populace. Rather interesting.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 15:56
I think the fact that Jews were in egenral rich and prominent certainly didn't help their 'cause it made them stick out and become fair game as scapegoats for others' misfortunes - this is not a new phenomenon as it still occurs to this day in the West (immigrants stealing jobs?). So Pinguin's claim is not untrue, just like you say an over simplification.
 
My memory fails me, but didn't a prominent Spanish Queen have a very close Jewish advisor at one point whom she later disowned and deported at the behest of the Church? Was it Isabel?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:40

Anti-semitism is historically European-Christian. Anti-semitism doesn't really exist in the far-East, the Indian Sub-continant, Africa, Central Asia, it wasn't an issue in the Islamic world either untill 60 years ago.

What are the roots of this? well the fact that Jews have been made historic scapegoats, "traitors", "prophet killers" doesn't help. Ever since the Byzantines, Judaism has been on the sharp end of its official policies.

As it was a theocratic era, this religous dislike for Jews manifested into tradditions and culture.

In addition to this, as the Church disliked Catholics handling money and interest, Jews were used to do this instead, hence the "Jews are greedy money-grabber" stories.

Also as Jews remained Jews and didn't assimilate this caused mistrust as they kept tight nit socities to keep their religion and culture alive.

Now add that Jews were blamed for the "plague", they used to be accused of killing and drinking little kids bloods, then the endless list of "Blood Libels", the constant expulsions and so on.

The Nazi ideology wasn't really anything new, Jews were historically blamed for most things undesirable in the region.

What is ironic today is that, it was the Islamic world which historically gave equality, freedom, tolerance and protection to Jews. They outlawed Blood Libels, built synagogues, welcomned the constant expulsions into their lands, even Suleyman the Magnificent wrote a letter to the Pope telling them to stop persecuting Jews.

However, look at today, Jews are having a tougher time at the hands of muslims. Although Israel hasn't exactly treated the Palestinians very well either.

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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:43
I never said that it was untrue. I just get sick of these over-simplifications. Jews are hated because they are rich. Communism failed because of human nature. yada yada, its like History by numbers or something.

Jews were not rich and prominent, its a misconception.

Jews and economic power has little to do with envy and their wealth, it is to do with the power they had over the lower orders. Jews were moneylenders, basically because it was bad for Christians to partake in such deeds, Moneylenders would give money to peasants who want to buy a plot of land for their home, there is a bad harvest and peasant can't pay said moneylender, peasant loses land and moneylended is seen as bad.

Now its not just with the peasants, this is a simple expression of how certain groups can become hated. Its not about envy.

Now place teh same thing into the 19th century, during periods of industrialisation. Quite easy to see how people hate them and it has very little to do with 'envy'.




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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:48
Ovidus
Jews and economic power has little to do with envy and their wealth, it is to do with the power they had over the lower orders. Jews were moneylenders, basically because it was bad for Christians to partake in such deeds, Moneylenders would give money to peasants who want to buy a plot of land for their home, there is a bad harvest and peasant can't pay said moneylender, peasant loses land and moneylended is seen as bad.
 
Exactly the point I was trying to make.
 
Also let's not forget many Jews lived in Ghetto's till not too long ago, they worked themselves up.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:58
I never said that it was untrue.
 
I never said you said it's untrue, I was agreeing with you and stating that although it was a factor, it is very simplistic to assert that it was the only factor.
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  Quote Ovidius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:24
Originally posted by Bulldog

Ovidus
Jews and economic power has little to do with envy and their wealth, it is to do with the power they had over the lower orders. Jews were moneylenders, basically because it was bad for Christians to partake in such deeds, Moneylenders would give money to peasants who want to buy a plot of land for their home, there is a bad harvest and peasant can't pay said moneylender, peasant loses land and moneylended is seen as bad.
 
Exactly the point I was trying to make.
 
Also let's not forget many Jews lived in Ghetto's till not too long ago, they worked themselves up.


hehehe.

I didn't see your post when I posted, I was writing my post when you posted it, hehehe.

sorry Zagros, misunderstood what you were saying. Tongue
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 19:22
Originally posted by pekau

I wonder why antisemitism was so popular, even today somtimes. From the exile of Jewish peoplein the ancient times, to the release of the movie "Borat", I wonder why people hate Jews so much. I mean, out of hundreds and thousands of races, why Jewish people?

I do not think that Jewish people are the only nation who suffered. In my opinion the question should be , why are the sufferings of Jewish people known or emphasized more than others?

Also why is anti-Jewish (or anti-Israel) called anti-Semitic? Jewish people are obviously not the only semitic people. I personally find it strange when a Palestinian person is called ''anti-Semitic''.

Meybe Jewish people were the only Semitic people in Europe when this term started to be used, but now in modern times I think that there is a lot of dirty politic, propaganda and political correctness behind the term ''anti-Semitic''.

By the way, please do not take me wrong from my honest opinion. I am not ''anti-Semitic'' at all.




Edited by omshanti - 08-Mar-2007 at 19:30
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  Quote Dan Carkner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 19:58
Read Hannah Arendt's "On Antisemitism", it's not very long and it's 100x better than anything you will find on the internet. 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 20:41
Pffffffffffffff guyz, I'll have only one thing to say: SOURCES!

First: good joke the theme, antisemitism was only European. Three examples for you to appreciate.
- Jews flewing Tunisia (several times and in Spain at least twice) when Almohads and Almoravids and other tribes took over with fanatical islam even Muslim couldn't bear.
- Jews facing strong opposition of the Ottoman authorities in the late 17th century in Thessaloniki and South West Asia and finally ruining their business.
- Jews welcoming the French in Algeria in 1830, obviously because they felt oppressed.

Moreover give me a break with Suleyman, the only reason he defended the Jews was beause a creazy pope stop the traditionally open policy of the holly siedge. Basically the problem for the Ottoman was that Ancona became suddenly closed to their marchants (a great deal of whom were jews).

The welcoming Muslim world is little more than a rosy legend. Even though it is true that at time Jews had very good periods there.

There are plenty of other mistakes, just two for the road:
- Jews were not the most important moneylenders during the Middle Ages (otherwise how would England would have survived after 1296?).
- "Envy" or more precisely paranoia was indeed one of the base of nazi antisemitism. Many middle ranking nazi officials had been ruined by the 1930s crisis and strongly believed the Jews were responsible for it... hence hate and revanche (this is based on a few cases but I believe it was very common at the time).
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 22:01
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by pekau

Is there any other reasons why Jewish race is so condemned in many parts of the world?
 
Asking people to name reasons why somebody would hate Jews is silly.
 
 
Know thy enemy... Wink
     
   
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