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Wolves to be re-introduced in Scotland?

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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wolves to be re-introduced in Scotland?
    Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 12:45
Wild wolves 'good for ecosystems'
Grey%20wolf%20%28Image:%20AP%29
Farmers do not want the animals they care for being killed by wolves
Anna Davies,
National Farmers' Union Scotland

Reintroducing wild wolves to the Scottish Highlands would help the local ecosystem, a study suggests.

Wolves, which were hunted to extinction in Scotland in the late 1700s, would help control the numbers of red deer, the team from the UK and Norway said.

This would aid the re-establishment of plants and birds - currently hampered by the deer population, they write in Proceedings of the Royal Society B.

But farmers say more livestock would be killed if wolves are reintroduced.

The researchers' findings used a predator/prey model to assess the probable consequences on the Highland's red deer population.

"There has been an ongoing debate about the possibility of reintroducing wolves to Scotland for some time," said co-author Tim Coulson, from Imperial College London.

"So we thought that we would start the ball rolling by looking to see, using mathematical modelling approaches, what the possible impact of reintroducing wolves into Scotland would have on the red deer population."

Red%20deer%20%28Image:%20John%20Cancalosi/naturepl.com%20%29
Attempts to get forests to come back are going to be hindered by the fact that there are too many deer
Dr Tim Coulson, Imperial College London

The researchers found that the red deer population was close to reaching the maximum capacity that the ecosystem could support, and that costly culls were not proving to be economically effective.

Since Scotland's wild wolf population died out, the UK's largest wild land animal has not had any natural predators to help control its numbers.

"For example, many sheep farmers argue for fewer deer because they are concerned the deer compete with sheep for grazing," Dr Coulson told BBC News.

"Many of the conservation organisations, especially those trying to reforest areas, also believe their numbers should be reduced.

"Attempts to get forests to come back are going to be hindered by the fact that there are too many deer, which will munch away merrily on any young trees."

Other groups, Dr Coulson added, were concerned that excessive deer numbers were having an impact on bird species, such as the capercaillie.

The study found that the wolves would prey on the deer and would help rebalance the ecology, giving other tree and bird species a chance to establish themselves.

Livestock worries

But farming groups voiced concern and said that the introduction of wolves would hit their members.

Male%20capercaillie%20%28Image:%20David%20Kjaer/naturepl.com%29
One bird that could benefit from wolves in Scotland is the capercaillie

Anna Davies, a spokeswoman for the National Farmers' Union in Scotland, said: "The reintroduction of wolves into the wild would present significant problems in terms of sheep predation, and that is the reason why it is not widely popular among farmers."

Dr Coulson agreed that farmers would be affected but he added: "Typically, wolves do not go through and take out an entire flock; they will take individuals when they are hungry."

The study also assessed people's attitudes towards the idea of releasing wolves into the wild. While the public were generally positive, people living in rural areas were more sensitive.

"Although the farmers were slightly negative, they were not completely adverse to the idea provided they were adequately reimbursed for any lost stock," he said.

But Miss Davies disagreed: "Any implication that farmers are simply concerned with support payments and not with the welfare and predation of their animals is unjustified.

"Farmers suffer emotional as well as financial losses when they lose stock, as was demonstrated during the foot-and-mouth outbreak."

Dr Coulson said he believed that any reintroduction plan was still a long way from becoming a reality.

"Our research is just one of the first steps towards understanding the consequences of a wolf reintroduction in Scotland," he added.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 12:47
The novel called, "Last Wolf of Ireland" is a perfect example between the wolf-farmer relations. Not to mention that wolves in the early times were seen as the servants of evil...
     
   
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:28
The Scottish Highlands attract many hill walkers; myself included. Personally I do not want to test if I can out run a deer or a farmers herd of sheep when a hungry wolf comes a hunting.
   I've heard it argued that these particular wolves will only kill deer and leave sheep and us lone hillwalkers alone (what a load of bullsh*t) Many unfortunate accidents happen in the Scottish Highlands and the last thing you want sniffing around you if you are injured/bleeding is a wolf supposed only out looking for deer.
(Hey! Mr Wolf the deer your looking for went running off that way) 

Edited by Scorpian - 08-Mar-2007 at 16:29
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 16:59
I think it's unfortunate that the wolf has gotten such a bad wrap. They are beautiful creatures who serve a needed role in the ecosystems they live in. They help to contorl the population of things like deer and rabits. Obviously the wolves will not only kill deer, they will also kill sheep. If you are walking on the hills of Scotland whether hiking or just strolling or meandering about you should not be doing it alone. Plus it could be worse they could want to introduce bears.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:01
This is great news and I can't wait if they do it.
 
What makes you think you have a right to be there and the wolves don't, Scorpian?  You go for recreation; the wolves, it is their habitat, they were killed off.
 

Iranian peasant and his wolf

Khalkhal, Ardebil prov, Feb 14, IRNA-In an unprecedented event, a young Iranian peasant, Habib Mirzaee, lives with a wild wolf at his house in 'Alleh-Hashem' village near the northwestern city of Khalkhal in Ardebil province.



Edited by Zagros - 08-Mar-2007 at 17:09
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  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:17
I think this is an awesome idea! I believe wolves should gradually be reintroduced to much of their former range!

That is awesome Zagros, a man with a wild wolf...pet? companion? That would be really amazing...
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:27
Originally posted by King John

I think it's unfortunate that the wolf has gotten such a bad wrap. They are beautiful creatures who serve a needed role in the ecosystems they live in. They help to contorl the population of things like deer and rabits. Obviously the wolves will not only kill deer, they will also kill sheep. If you are walking on the hills of Scotland whether hiking or just strolling or meandering about you should not be doing it alone. Plus it could be worse they could want to introduce bears.
 
Or mountain lions. Tongue  In the US wolf populations have been successfully re established in many areas, including Yellowstone Nat. Park.  I don't recall hearing of any wolf attacks on humans as a result.  Wolves have gotten a reputation they don't deserve, they are a complex and beautiful animal, and in a sense have a stronger moral code than humans.  [They don't kill for the fun of it, they only kill to eat]


Edited by red clay - 08-Mar-2007 at 17:28
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:31
I think it is a companion rather than a pet - though that rope he has makes me have second thoughts.
 
In my home province man has again exercised his disregard for nature, along with the sound of shelling and bombs, in the winter you could hear the wolves howl from the nearby hills.  I was 4 when I last heard it and I distinctly remember, it was spooky but fascinating - I knew what wolves were and they were feared.  I went back in 2003 and upon those very same hills there were god damn high rises. Angry
 
I heard from some source that only 300 wild wolves survive in Iran and that only 20 years ago there were 10 thousand.  Looks like they will go along with the leopards, caspian seals and cheetahs the way of our lions, tigers and brown bears. Sickening, especially since 100 years ago all of these roamed free.
 
I weas not please when in 2003 I also saw a picture of my uncle posing with a dead brown bear he had killed some years back - he told me he had killed it in self defence... with a hunting rifle in the middle of no where? Dead
 
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  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:31
hehe no we cannot let them live there....what about us precious humans and our leisure activities...lol
 
As long as farmers are helped to protect their livestock, yeah to the wolves.
 
I myself love walking etc but would happily budge over for some wolves, its only right. Besides how often do people get killed by wolves? Not a huge amount I would presume. We don't have much patience for any animal that does not fit neatly into our lives do we?
 
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:50
Was their habitat but no more unless reintroduced. (was probs my ancestors who killed them off for killing their sheep herds)
    Personally I've got nothing against wolves yet reckon they should not be reintroduced to Scotland without giving proper thought and consideration to every consequence concerning releasing them into the wilds. Any misshaps and the peeps who want them reintroduced should be made make proper recompense.
   The last wolf was supposed killed in 1743 but were reckoned extinct around 1680's. After 300 years without wolves in the wild reintroducing them into the environment is a bad idea.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:57
It will add some much needed excitement to my trips up north, I can tell you that.
 
Anyway, I have a story about wolves in my province from 40 years ago which my dad told me.  In Kermanshah it gets bitterly old in the winter and isn't unusual to get 20ft snow drifts - the wolves come to lower lands from the mountains because of the food scarcity.  Wolves are highly intelligent animals and they hunt co-operatively in teams, for example when hunting faster pray, they set up victims gauntlet and relay it with chasers every so often.  When the chase starts, they exhaust their pray by taking turns in chasing it down a pre determined path.  One night during a particularly cold, long lasting and bitter winter, two men were driving their pick-up from Paveh back to Kermanshah city down a long, narrow winding road in the mountains during a blizzard, at least 20km from the nearest village, when they happened upon a wolf in the middle of the road, lying on its side with its head raised looking at them.  They stopped, and were wondering what it was up to, whether it had been hit by a car, was ill or what?  The wolf stood up with the length of its body turned towards the car, its head turned towards them, just glaring at them.  By this time the engine had stopped, the driver couldn't get it to start again and needed to take a look at the engine.  They had rifle in the car and the driver asked the passenger to take down the wolf so he could check the engine....  As the driver leaned out of the window to take aim at the wolf, others had surrounded the car... The passenger was dragged out of the car and torn apart by a whole pack of wolves, to the horror of the driver who heard him shriek for a good 30 seconds as his friend, colleague and passenger was torn apart.  
 
 
This I do believe.


Edited by Zagros - 08-Mar-2007 at 18:14
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 18:00
Originally posted by Zagros

It will add some much needed excitement to my trips up north, I can tell you that.
 
 
 
   how fast can you runLOL
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 18:01
I think it is a companion rather than a pet.
 
 
 
About 20 years ago in th US there was a fashion to have a wolf as a pet.  Hybrid wolves, as they are called became the "in thing",  until it was realized how unstable an animal they had created.  By the laws of most states you cannot sell or own a hw that is half and half, they are the most unstable.  The most desirable is 1/8 wolf, 7/8 pure dog, as they are relatively stable, although still potentially dangerous.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 18:16
Hey, look again at my previous post, I edited and added a story.
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  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 18:25
Linell and Mcvay reports found that:
 
 
Only 17 cases of people killed by wolves were found in the last 50 or so years in the whole of North America, Europe and Russia - 50 people in a human population of roughly a billion people.


From 1965-2001 there was 431 fatal dog attacks in the US alone.
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 18:46
Yes, as long as there's plenty of game for them to hunt, they will pose a minimal threat to humans.

Edited by Zagros - 08-Mar-2007 at 18:47
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 19:06
Nice story Zagros Dead. I also grew up in a small town in Albania that got bitterly cold in the winter, and if I recall correctly sometimes you could hear their howls during particularly scarce winters when they came in close proximity to the city. We used to hear these sort of stories a lot especially of unfortunate immigrants crossing mountains trying to get Greece.

Don't know about now though I doubt many are left alive.


Edited by vulkan02 - 08-Mar-2007 at 19:08
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 19:35
I forgot to add, in the morning there was nothing but a scattering of bloody bones and torn clothes around the car.
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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 21:18
Yuck! Reminds me of this TV program I saw a while back about Siberian tigers and how one went berserk and ate four men in far east Russia. The only items that they found for each was their trashed boots and socks.
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  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2007 at 04:24
Originally posted by Zagros

Hey, look again at my previous post, I edited and added a story.
 
  That's the type of incident that concerns me should these potentially dangerous animals be released. What would be the outcome should a child be killed? 
 Ultimately it would be the wolves themselves that would suffer though fortunately we have such laws that prohibit the release of dangerous animals into the wilds.  (such release of these wolves will never happen legally).
     I've a wee story of my ownLOL  I was driving down a forest track in a works landrover and had to slam hard on the brakes when a black shape ran out of the trees and then in front of me.
    I was thinking WTF and about to get out when I saw this black panther type bigcat appear and then disappear back into the trees. I saw it clearly for about 5seconds  but I still doubted what I saw until I found out others had reported seeing similar.
 I'd never have thought of seeing suchlike in Scotland but apparently when it became law in this country that prohibited owning dangerous animals without proper license peeps set their wild pets free illegally because they did not know what to do with them.
        Similar if wolves are reintroduced to Scotland then they too would have been set free illegally and those responsible open for prosecution if caught.
 
p.s. I tried to post images but access was denied me due to not having sufficient permission. Are lowly punters like me being denied access to this pic uploady thing for a reason or has the server glitched again?


Edited by Scorpian - 09-Mar-2007 at 04:53
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