Chechnya is necessarry and justified

The 6 million are the starved to death 4 million Ukrainians and 2 million North-caucasians, Kazakhs and Russians who were taken the right to a life with food.

This post is off topic, but i just specified my mistake, let's carry on with the never ending arguement.

Edited by Kalevipoeg

"Also Kalevipoeg, if this continues for much longer I will just concede and leave"

What exactly shouldn't continue anymore? I thought we were doing just well, drug moi!!!

"What continues is your side asking the same questions over and over again and restating the same points. While I cannot look at this objectively since there are 9 pages of material about half of which is mine, I'm sure htat I'm doing the same, and have forgotten that I asked those questions weeks ago. "

Yes, true, we have our own solid views and throughout the postings, we still have had zero effect on eachother. We just keep throwing the same stones with not a single crack to the target. I am tired of you not understanding me and me probably not understanding you aswell, but as most of us think, we understand everything and everyone so i have always thought to understand you. Probably never truly have.

-- matame s�jakirve --

               "let's Bury the hatchet."        Mark.P  a.k.a Kalevipoeg, to Dark one

"IIRC the last time you did not asnwer me about Osetia."

You mean, the Chechen acts of murder towards Osetians??? Well, if that is what you asked (i don't bother to check the previous page as my connection is quite slow), i see nothing but wrong in those acts against Osetians. That truly is terrorism, if i have understood the situation as it really is.

wow! this is a long thread. I made it up to page 5 and gave up lol anyways...

I belive that Russia is justified in trying to keep Chechnya in the Russian Federation. There have been actos of violence and murder on both sides here. I don't think either group is 100% right and that the other is 100% wrong.

Chechnya is a part of Russia and it only makes sense that Russia will not let them jsut pack up and leave. Russia has every right to fight to keep its nation together. I say this becasue the same thing happened to my nation and even though it led to a disastrous civil war, it kept my nation together and we are better for that. No nation is going to just want to let a chunk of itself just leave.

Not to mention that the Chechans are child killers and are in league with Al-Qaeda. They intentionally attack and slaughter innocent school children. No group that resorts to those tactics should ever be allowed to govern their own nation.

Trust me Illuminati, there's no way to get through to these guys. Just read the past 9 pages to see how pointless this is.

I just read the last nine pages of this fascinating discussion. This is not a black and white issue. Dark One is not without a point in trying to cling to lands that were stolen from others. He made an excellent point about Hawaii.

But if Dark One lives in America as he revealed, he should know the statement he made Jan. 12 ("Yeah, but the west keeps defending the Chechens' side") is on very shaky ground. There's a virtual news blackout on the Chechen affair, a situation not too different in Europe, I suspect. The reasons? The West hopes to preserve the notion that Russia is now just like them. Secondly, defending the Chechens would open a can of worms for all of these nations, from Basque separatists in Spain to Northern Ireland in Great Britain. (Still okay to pick on Turkey for the Kurds, though.)

But there's one difference between Hawaiians and Chechens. The former were peaceful, and were totally pushed over by a superior force. The latter are warlike and have an inconquerable spirit. They even came back after Stalin had disgracefully deported their entire people... a move which would have killed off any other nation.

Tolstoy has reported on this spirit. Dark One's "Final Solution" of killing off every last one as the solution is simply abominable.

And some of the hateful posts here were really hard to stomach. Let me offer a few highlights.

"The Chechens do not deserve their own state however, they are immature and they kill children, however Russia has probably killed about half the chechens that existed itn eh first place which isnt so great either."

At least Tobodai is aware of the other side of the coin; but the first part is awfully haughty. Here are a people who have been living in their homeland for long centuries, and we are told they are not adult enough to maintain their own affairs. He goes on:

Chechnya will NOT become a republic, or even an enlightened despotate, it will become a haven for fanatics and psycopaths...

 if the Chechens were fightin gfor an ordered secular nation they would have my sympathies, but they are not, they are fighting for something like the taleban and they will opress all reasonable people if they suceed.  Religious fanatics of any faith must be stopped for the sake of humanity!

How dare Tobodai speak for all Chechens!

I had a Russian girlfriend, and I picked up on the distaste her society had cultivated in her, against the Chechens. The Chechens are not a popular people, being Turkic. But let's say Tibetans had a chance to gain their freedom from the oppression of the Chinese. Tibet is founded on Buddhism, and some might call them "religious fanatics." I'd guess the odds of Tibet becoming secular would be very long, if freedom were in their grasp. But Tobodai would not speak thus for the Tibetans, I'd wager. He only says this because of the "Islam" factor.

And the child murdering business keeps popping up:

Tsar,  1-18: They are determined to do the "humane" thing and let these child murderers and Wahabists have their own country.

I recall in the first Chechen war, the Chechens deliberately strayed from targeting civilians. It's only when one gets backed into a corner do the extremists in a group take criminal measures. There's no justifying the terrorism we all saw in that school. However, we in the West saw that blood-curdling footage, but how often have we seen the indiscriminate mass killing perpetrated by heavy-handed Russian murderers?

Remember the takeover of the theater by the Chechens? I can't vouch for the accuracy, but a Lithuanian pen pal of mine who maintained the old contacts reported the Russian soldiers who stormed in had shot the already-dead Chechen women (sitting with the bombs strapped on them) through their vaginas.

The wise words of Wilpuri  (from 3-14) bear repeating:

It is because of Russian brutality and aggression, that the Chechen cause has been radicalized into an islamist fundamentalist one. Russia has already murdered to democratically elected head of states of Chechenya, Dudayev (A good man) and Maskhadov (a moderate killed quite recently). Neither of these men were terrorists, they were relatively speaking moderates and first and formost Chechen nationalists. Why does Russia target these men instead of the fundamentalists? Because Russia wants to keep this conflict going. Killing off moderates will only further radicalize the Chechens and give a vaccuum for islamists to occupy. After the carnage that Chechens have been forced to witness everyday, I find it no wonder that they want to take the 'war to Russia', altrhough I do not sympathise with 'terrorists'. Its so easy for Putin to say that he is fighting terrorism, since that is the trendy accepted thing to do today.

Or, as Kalevipoeg put it neatly:  No nation becomes loony without provocation, remember that my Russian friends.

People here reveal their biases without shame. The aptly named Christscrusader tells us, (1-12-05): "I do not know if i want another terrorist state given freedom."

The state hasn't been established, and already it becomes a terrorist state. Between the two wars, was Chechnya a terrorist state? No. The terror incident that gave Putin the excuse to move in was apparently staged by Russian special forces.

The Chechens are screwed twice over. Before the violence erupted, Chechnya was not an overly religious state. Just like Bosnia was not. But when Bosnia was targeted for extermination, and "civilized" Europe turned its back (my country deserves credit for saving the day, here), what were the Bosnians going to do? The religious extremists of Saudi Arabia and elsewhere were one of the few who had the deep pockets to offer arms and men. When you're desperate, and the alternative is death, you take help any way you can get it.

The world has turned its back on Chechnya, giving Russia free reign in committing its brutal rampage. These crazy foreign Wahhabis are one of the very few who offer a breather, and unfortunately the price becomes some Chechens being converted to their cause. (The Wahhabis are a minor sect. They have the big bucks, though. Their influence is felt in the USA, as well. Most of the mosques are financed by the Wahhabis, although most Moslems don't want any part of these kooks.)

That doesn't mean if Chechnya emerges from this hellhole with freedom that there will be a "Taliban" rule as a result. Islamaphobes are quick to frighten us with such predictions. (Not that it couldn't happen; but to deny a people their long-sought right for freedom based on such irrational fear is immoral.)

(1-25: I'm sick of these fundamentalist Muslims who claim they actin god, when i beleive it is just an excuse to justify there actions. You go, Christscrusader!) 

Genghis wrote:
Don't treat Dark One like a nazi because he wants to keep his country united.  It's easy for you all to say that when the integrity of your own nations are not threatened, but the stability of Dark One's homeland is in serious jeopardy.

Russia's stability is not smooth, but the Chechens had little to do with it. Corruption and organized crime run rampant. Ironically, Putin muscled into Chechnya to arouse his people's pride, offering a saving grace from the humiliation of the first go-round, and Chechnya became a reason to preserve Russian stability. 

Infidel, 2-11:  Russia is fighting �terrorism� as well as the US are. The difference is that Chechnya is on russian ground, Afghanistan and Iraq (who knows, Iran?) aren't...

So if Russia (in the form of the USSR) had succeeded in maintaining its hold upon Afghanistan, would we then qualify Afghanistan as "Russian groud"?

I thought this was a history forum. Aren't people aware of whose ground Chechnya really is? Yes, the Russians are currently occupying this ground. Of course, in a way it is Russian ground, just like France was German ground about half a century ago. But the difference is, the original landlord wants the squatter out, and has taken serious action. So the world must pay attention, unlike the case of the Hawaiians, who have been rolled over.

And that's what Dark One is arguing. Might makes right... as if we were still back in the glory days of Tsarist Russia. If the Hawaiians were to seriously rebel, I, as an American, would have a major moral problem in advocating the death of every Hawaiian in order to retain Hawaii.

I found some of Dark One's comments amusing.

Also everyone talks about our Aggression, but what about Chechen agression?

It's hard to find sympathy for those who have tried to wipe out a nation in its entirety for the longest time. This is like a killer telling us that he came at someone with an axe, and because his victim dared to put up his dukes, we should feel sorry for the killer.

They attack us and are angry at us for occupying them?

When someone is stomping on me, it is my fundamental right to try and get that big foot off my back. When the Mongols were occupying Russia, should we have become angry at the Russians for attacking the Mongols?

And I can't resist commenting on a little off-thread:

Dark One, 1-27:   We saved Europe countless time s(both alone and with extensive help).

Let's put "ancient times" aside; maybe Dark One is referring to providing resistance against the Mongols, and I don't know how influential Russians were in saving the necks of the Europeans... particularly when the Mongols managed to travel far into Europe, to the point of taking on the Teutonic Knights. I have a feeling he's referring mostly to WWII.

I feel this, because as Tsarist Russia became increasingly powerful and expansionist, the other European states sometimes teamed up to put Russia in her place, as with the Crimean War. Russia was usually considered the "enemy," and not the "savior" of Europe.

So if Dark One is talking about WWII, it doesn't count when Russia was forced to defend itself after Hitler's attack. If we are to perceive Russia as a "hero," what counts is Russia's behavior while the Non-Aggression Pact with the Nazis was still alive.

What happened? Both criminal states of Russia and Germany divided Poland between themselves.

And here's the irony: Sarmata  (from Poland) said in 1-27:
I think Russia did a hell of a lot more in WWII then America.

That was worth a laugh. Polish jokes are no longer in vogue in my land, but with that one comment, Sarmata has played a major role in making them popular once again.

I'm becoming increasingly impressed with Catt's smarts. He replied, on 2-9:  This is a little off topic, but right, the US didnt single handedly defeat Germany..but dont underestimate its contributions and a possible Soviet defeat.
If not, Europe was indeed saved from the Soviets who would not have stopped at Berlin.

 

 

Bravo, Atomic-ache.

Originally posted by wilpuri Originally posted by Illuminati wow! this is a long thread. I made it up to page 5 and gave up lol anyways... I belive that Russia is justified in trying to keep Chechnya in the Russian Federation. There have been actos of violence and murder on both sides here. I don't think either group is 100% right and that the other is 100% wrong. Chechnya is a part of Russia and it only makes sense that Russia will not let them jsut pack up and leave. Russia has every right to fight to keep its nation together. I say this becasue the same thing happened to my nation and even though it led to a disastrous civil war, it kept my nation together and we are better for that. No nation is going to just want to let a chunk of itself just leave. Not to mention that the Chechans are child killers and are in league with Al-Qaeda. They intentionally attack and slaughter innocent school children. No group that resorts to those tactics should ever be allowed to govern their own nation. Chechenya deserves independence as much as any nation. By your logic USA should not have been allowed to free itself from the British Not to mention that the Chechans are child killers and are in league with Al-Qaeda. They intentionally attack and slaughter innocent school children. No group that resorts to those tactics should ever be allowed to govern their own nation Yes, all chechens do that and are like that, and because of that, the Irish, the Russians, the Americans, the Iraqis, the Saudis, and pretty much every other nation/ethnic group on the face of the planet should be denied self government. hundreds of thousands of Chechens have died, most of them civilians. A few thousand Russian civilians have lost their life thanks to Chechen terrorists. Now who is the real terrorist?

WELL SAID!

Unfortunately I don't ahve the time to answer this now, I will do my best to do so tommorrow.


Edited by dark_one

 You know what, f**k a civil response, I'm tired of trying to get this sh*t through to you, go whack off to the thoughts that I conceded the debate because I cannot put up with all the f**king misunderstanding of basic concepts here. Thankfully none of your countries will(or even so much as can) do anything to stop us.
We will retain Chechnya.
Chechnya is Russian.
We will keep it and if you have a problem with that, feel free to eat my f**king sh*t.