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dark_one
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Topic: Chechnya is necessarry and justified Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 12:55 |
Russia protects us? You mean, like the USSR did? |
Gographically qw have always protected you, as far backa s absorbing
the mognol invasion rather than letting them gothrought o Europe. Also
if it wasn't for us Britain, France and about 20 smaller
EUropeannations would be aprt of the Thrid Reich.
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 16:42 |
Maybe the Byzantine Empire protected Europe from the Muslim invasions. And its not like the Mongols were STOPPEd in Russia, they still got through to Europe. SO i guess you Russians didn't do your job THat time.
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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dark_one
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Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 17:41 |
Where exactl did we fail?
Edited by dark_one
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 19:49 |
Your acting like RUssia totally stopped the Mongol Hordes from entering Europe, which is not true.
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 21-Jan-2005 at 03:21 |
Russian states were no match for the Mongol invasion and wern't like the ones who majorely stopped the horde from entering Europe. You seem to think that you stopped the Mongols, which is a delusion. The border that you are showing us, as it limits itself with todays Ukraine has something to do with Russian resistance, i admit, but the major reason was the death of the Khakhan or the minor pastureal areas Europe had to offer for the Mongol herds. The Mongols would have conquered Rome in a few years, no matter if they had had war with Russian states or not. Don't make yourself look too important. Just be satisfied that you stopped napoleon and wore out the Wehrmacht.
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Genghis
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Posted: 21-Jan-2005 at 12:51 |
We should really steer this thread back toward the war in Chechnya. Not the Invasion of Russia by the Mongols 800 years ago.
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 21-Jan-2005 at 15:31 |
Allright, fine by me. So here is my opinion on Chechnya, it is wrong and also Russia looking for pity from outer forces is wrong!!! Don't make a thread where you search justification for a war where you call a tiny group( from Russias point of view ) of people a terrorist nation because the reason for this ugly war does go back to the same second where Russian forces first stepped on the Chechen homeland to make it their own. You took an eternal burden on yourself and now pay the consequenses. Fighting for independence can't be described as terrorism, what is the matter with your thinking?
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Tobodai
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Posted: 21-Jan-2005 at 17:22 |
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg
Allright, fine by me. So here is my opinion on Chechnya, it is wrong and also Russia looking for pity from outer forces is wrong!!! Don't make a thread where you search justification for a war where you call a tiny group( from Russias point of view ) of people a terrorist nation because the reason for this ugly war does go back to the same second where Russian forces first stepped on the Chechen homeland to make it their own. You took an eternal burden on yourself and now pay the consequenses. Fighting for independence can't be described as terrorism, what is the matter with your thinking? |
if the Chechens were fightin gfor an ordered secular nation they would have my sympathies, but they are not, they are fighting for something like the taleban and they will opress all reasonable people if they suceed. Religious fanatics of any faith must be stopped for the sake of humanity!
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Guests
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 08:15 |
Sure, Chechnya shouldn't turn into a fundametalist's hideout. But that
does not justify the way Russia behaves itself there. After all,
oppression breeds radicalism.
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dark_one
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 12:14 |
Allright, fine by me. So here is my opinion on Chechnya, it is wrong
and also Russia looking for pity from outer forces is wrong!!! Don't
make a thread where you search justification for a war where you call a
tiny group( from Russias point of view ) of people a terrorist nation
because the reason for this ugly war does go back to the same second
where Russian forces first stepped on the Chechen homeland to make it
their own. You took an eternal burden on yourself and now pay the
consequenses. Fighting for independence can't be described as
terrorism, what is the matter with your thinking? |
Yeah, what the hell is the matter with me for condemning people
who take schoolchildren hostage. That is sure isn't terrorism. And by
trying to make alliances we are asking for pity. Also it's our land, so
we use whatever force is necessarry to discipline murderers.
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 15:28 |
"Yeah, what the hell is the matter with me for condemning people who take schoolchildren hostage. That is sure isn't terrorism. And by trying to make alliances we are asking for pity. Also it's our land, so we use whatever force is necessarry to discipline murderers".
Wow, the Chechens did one act of terror that out of the entire war, reached to the masses outside of Russia and Chechnya and now you use it so persistantely to make them look as monsters. You have now an even greater excuse to commit genocide just because of that one act that you make look as the most horrific thing since the nazi labor camps. Chechnya and Chechens have gone threw the same thing tenfold and now you use the act of a couple of dozen terrorists to characterize the entire nation, although there are many of these radical nationalist killer Chechens (which your own government, may it be the previous communist or czarist, created them and keep on doing so), there must be and are, peace-desiring ones. Your so called army, which as an organizaation is pathetic: men deserting because of being beaten by their comrades, unemployeed bums entering service because there is nowhere else to go, no jobs at sight atleast. The quality is awful, they are only soldiers on paper, on the field they burn villages, use terror-tactics and the entire war consists of eradicating people to the ground and has no planning or tactics anywhere to be found. Their knowldege of war is limited to the simple massacring of anyone that is atleast a day old and is not Russian. An ugly picture, but you will hardly see it as i do. You see them as heroes, keeping the peace and would bow before a stone bust of a Russian conscript if there were one in your neighbourhood. I see that romanitcism is very much alive.
IT IS NOT YOUR LAND! Should the Brittish feel mad at the Indian and Pakistani natives or taking Brittish "motherland" and make it their own? Your views on "whos land is whos" is so very twisted. Some old commie leftovers in Russia (well, actually your entire administrative elite composes of old commie leftovers this day) still feel the entire eastern europe is a part of Russia or something, including my own land. I think i have said it to you before that taking land away from slaughtered natives and centuries later be proud of it and then be surprised when the former now want their homes back is twisted and goes beyond me. Well, being a citizen of a dictatorous- imperialistic country includes its side-effects as i see. And the talk of letting this minor ethnicity having their independence would cause a chain effect of little wars around your "comfty" federation is ludacris, just some ghost story as was told by Hitler: "If we won't kill the jews, they will poison the world with greed and hate"! or something like that. It is just insane and is covering the imperialistic instincts of Russia, which means that: Losing land to minor slaves would be disgrace to the centuries long pride of a great nation and admiting that the land they are fighting for isn't even a part of native Russia is also impossible for you as you don't even comsider the possibility. And thats that, Putin doesn't care about some sort of safety for the people or any of that nonsence, it never has and never will occur to the rulers of Great nations to do something for the people. It is all politics, greed and imperial pride.
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dark_one
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 16:38 |
Wow, the Chechens did one act of terror that out of the entire war,
reached to the masses outside of Russia and Chechnya and now you use it
so persistantely to make them look as monsters. You have now an even
greater excuse to commit genocide just because of that one act that you
make look as the most horrific thing since the nazi labor camps.
Chechnya and Chechens have gone threw the same thing tenfold and
now you use the act of a couple of dozen terrorists to characterize the
entire nation, although there are many of these radical nationalist
killer Chechens (which your own government, may it be the previous
communist or czarist, created them and keep on doing so), there must be
and are, peace-desiring ones. Your so called army, which as an
organizaation is pathetic: men deserting because of being beaten by
their comrades, unemployeed bums entering service because there is
nowhere else to go, no jobs at sight atleast. The quality is awful,
they are only soldiers on paper, on the field they burn villages,
use terror-tactics and the entire war consists of eradicating people to
the ground and has no planning or tactics anywhere to be found. Their
knowldege of war is limited to the simple massacring of anyone that is
atleast a day old and is not Russian. An ugly picture, but you will
hardly see it as i do. You see them as heroes, keeping the peace and
would bow before a stone bust of a Russian conscript if there were one
in your neighbourhood. I see that romanitcism is very much alive. |
So what exactly is you position? Earlier you said that we have taken on
an eternal course and should deal with it ourselves, now you critisize
us for dealing with it. Also Putin is reforming the army to put an end
to what you said (even though you are exagerating by protraying the
Russian army as bums).
IT IS NOT YOUR LAND! Should the Brittish feel mad at the Indian and
Pakistani natives or taking Brittish "motherland" and make it their
own? Your views on "whos land is whos" is so very twisted. Some old
commie leftovers in Russia (well, actually your entire administrative
elite composes of old commie leftovers this day) still feel the entire
eastern europe is a part of Russia or something, including my own land.
I think i have said it to you before that taking land away from
slaughtered natives and centuries later be proud of it and then be
surprised when the former now want their homes back is twisted and goes
beyond me. Well, being a citizen of a dictatorous- imperialistic
country includes its side-effects as i see. And the talk of letting
this minor ethnicity having their independence would cause a chain
effect of little wars around your "comfty" federation is ludacris, just
some ghost story as was told by Hitler: "If we won't kill the jews,
they will poison the world with greed and hate"! or something like
that. It is just insane and is covering the imperialistic instincts of
Russia, which means that: Losing land to minor slaves would be disgrace
to the centuries long pride of a great nation and admiting that the
land they are fighting for isn't even a part of native Russia is also
impossible for you as you don't even comsider the possibility. And
thats that, Putin doesn't care about some sort of safety for the people
or any of that nonsence, it never has and never will occur to the
rulers of Great nations to do something for the people. It is all
politics, greed and imperial pride. |
As I recall the Brittish willingly let go of India after deciding that it brings more bad than good.
A map of England in 1946. how many of the palces ont he map are still
Brittish colonies? They are members of the commonwealth but Britain ahs
no direct controll over them.
Here's an ethnic map of the former USSR
If we were to give teh Chechens independence every ethnic group would
want a homeland, and bigger than it deserves. We'd have 10 mroe
Chechnyas to whom we would also hav eto give independence. The we would
be left with our European territory(the WEstern red part), extreme
isntability int he government, civil strife, and extreme nationalism,
maybe we would become the next third reich, maybe we would jsut
silently collapse never to rise again. I do not wnat to see eitehr one
happenning and thankfully neitehr do the Russians.
Even if we consider the best possible scenario upon freeind Chehcnya we would get that the darker areas secede
Edited by dark_one
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 16:48 |
Do you fear your country becoming weak? Why is it so important for Russia to stay this "superpower" figure in your mind, and that if it grants independance to all these people, it will loose alot of power. I look at Great Britain. Its not the biggest country, but its still strong. Russia has too much land anyways in my opinion. Bet China and India wish they had some of that.
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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dark_one
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 21:11 |
Do you fear your country becoming weak? Why is it so important for
Russia to stay this "superpower" figure in your mind, and that if it
grants independance to all these people, it will loose alot of power. I
look at Great Britain. Its not the biggest country, but its still
strong. Russia has too much land anyways in my opinion. Bet China and
India wish they had some of that. |
Great Britain is no better than any other European nation, a shadow of
what it once was. China almost does have our lands (if you go to Sotuh
Eastern Russia it's nothing but Chinese). If theyw ant to have
them officially, then too bad. They wouldn't dare invade, and we won't
give it to them for free.
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Genghis
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Posted: 22-Jan-2005 at 21:39 |
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Do you fear your country becoming weak? Why is it so important for Russia to stay this "superpower" figure in your mind, and that if it grants independance to all these people, it will loose alot of power. I look at Great Britain. Its not the biggest country, but its still strong. Russia has too much land anyways in my opinion. Bet China and India wish they had some of that. |
Because he respects Russia and wants to see her powerful. All people who love their country want to see it mighty, prosperous, and safe. Russia will be none of those if the Chechens get their own country. As Dark One said, it would be devastating for Russia, it would either lead to extremism or the total collapse of the ancient and proud Russian state.
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 06:17 |
What logic says that the minorities will rise to arms? There is little proof or acctually none which you have pointed out. I hardly think the Udmurts or Mari would rise up in arms. Do they even know how to shoot a pistol? And anyhow, Russia isn't that great today either. The only reason why Russia is feared is due to the pure gigantic geographical size and the rusty and leaking nuclear warheads sitting in your soviet time missile silos which don't even have the simplest fences or any kind of security measures to guard them. Who knows, maybe an "ANGRY CHECHEN MONSTER WITH AN EVIL QURAN AND A KALASHNIKOV" might just come and take one and you wouldn't even notice it after it has been used on you. Your current power must be well shown in Chechnya today aswell i see. A nation of one million, well now half of that as you murdered the other half, has been successfully fighting your army that can't beat them in pure combat when they stand ten to one on your behalf. And let's not mention the tanks, planes, bio and chemical weapons you have used against them. You don't seem so great to me.
Why are you so stuck in your ignorant desires to again becoming a Great Nation. Is that not what the Germans wanted in the 1930's. But that was thought wrong because they killed to get to that state. Are you not doing the same right now, killing innocents to become great in your blind eyes? Conquest is a dishonorable act, but you see it as a mater of honor. Stupidity comes in all forms i see. Why can't you be satisfied with peace, why be a userper to the little guys? Is the powertrip really so addictive to you?
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azimuth
Caliph
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Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 07:06 |
i think Shishan or Chechnya must has its Freedom from the Russian controle
they suffered alot
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dark_one
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Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 12:13 |
What logic says that the minorities will rise to arms? There is
little proof or acctually none which you have pointed out. I hardly
think the Udmurts or Mari would rise up in arms. Do they even know how
to shoot a pistol? |
Yeah, I think that if it takes two weeks for 12 year old child to
learn how to dismantle and rebuild a kalshnikov(they teach that in
summer camp) then some grown men could at least fire and reload it. And
they will not rise to arms right away, only when we deny them the right
to secede. The question is why tehy will sescede. Simple: because a few
individiuals can inspire antionalism in them and make millions on it,
sure hte poor weill be worse off, but nationalism will keep them
thinking that theya re better off then they were udner us.
And
anyhow, Russia isn't that great today either. The only reason why
Russia is feared is due to the pure gigantic geographical size and the
rusty and leaking nuclear warheads sitting in your soviet time missile
silos which don't even have the simplest fences or any kind of security
measures to guard them. Who knows, maybe an "ANGRY CHECHEN MONSTER WITH
AN EVIL QURAN AND A KALASHNIKOV" might just come and take one and you
wouldn't even notice it after it has been used on you. Your current
power must be well shown in Chechnya today aswell i see. A nation of
one million, well now half of that as you murdered the other half, has
been successfully fighting your army that can't beat them in pure
combat when they stand ten to one on your behalf. And let's not mention
the tanks, planes, bio and chemical weapons you have used against them.
You don't seem so great to me. |
Did USA defeat teh Iraqi army? yes they did. Yet there are individuals
and terrorist organizations in Iraq right now which cannot be defeated
because they fight one man at a time. Also I see the army. They are
spread along cities and numerous vilages with anywhere from 10 to 500
soldeirs per village. The Chechens know where we are (everywhere) and
we have no ide awhere theya re. They attack our weak spots. A group of
20 Chechens will probably beat 10 russian soldiers.
Why are you so stuck in your ignorant desires to again becoming a
Great Nation. Is that not what the Germans wanted in the 1930's. But
that was thought wrong because they killed to get to that state. Are
you not doing the same right now, killing innocents to become great in
your blind eyes? Conquest is a dishonorable act, but you see it as a
mater of honor. Stupidity comes in all forms i see. Why can't you be
satisfied with peace, why be a userper to the little guys? Is the
powertrip really so addictive to you? |
Just because Estonia has lost their great nation status doesn't mean
Russia has to. Also we are not conquering anyone, we are dealing with
civil strife. Indonesians dealing with their rebels are also doing
that, but on smaller scale. Who says we are not stisfied in peace? We
would gladly withdraw our army from Chechnya and leave them an
autonomous region the minute the attacks stopped once and for all.
unfortuantely that won't ahppen anytime soon. Also whoa re we usurping?
I guess you can blame usrupign their pwoer on Alexander I or whoever
else it was that conquered them, we are retaining our alnds.
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Tobodai
Tsar
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Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 19:42 |
also, it would be good for people to learn how to work together, instead of splitting their nations apart over who worships what and whose nose is bigger than whom.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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dark_one
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Posted: 24-Jan-2005 at 13:05 |
Yes. Which is why the Chechens need to stay with us. And we need
to prevent further scessions and breakups (most notably int he future
division of Iraq). Breaking apart nations didn't lead to anything good.
Russia after the first World War was broken up as was Germany, and we
all know wha tkind of a role they played alter in the century.
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