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The Battle of Kursk - Myths and Reality

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Kursk - Myths and Reality
    Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 12:44
Originally posted by Temujin


as many as they have been credited with, don't forget Germans are extremely good in documenting stuff, or why do you think the Holocaust is so well documented?
The fact that most aspects of the Holocaust were meticoulesly documented is not related to the natural tendency to exagerrate heroic exploits during war for public consumption.    This has been done since recorded history and that neither the Germans nor the allies are immune to this.    The Germans were actually better than the allies.  The Germans, however, were not the aryan supermen of Goebbel's propaganda. 
Originally posted by Temujin

 Finland has a small army with very few tanks that could not cope with modern warfare, thats why they didn't made much land wins in the Continuation War, in fact Finland is grossly overrated, 
I dont think Finland was overated at all (true, they lacked mechanization).  German commanders expressed open admiration of Finnish military abilities 
 
Most of the soviet territory in the Finnish area of operations was forested and tanks were of little use.  The main reason why Finland limited offensive operations was opposition to NAZI ideology and that Finland was exhausted.
 
Unlike the NAZIS, Finland never saw the  war as a war of racial enslavement/domination.  In contrast, many senior Finnish officers and  NCOS had served in the Russian Imperial Army and had nothing against the Russians and other slavs as people.  From the very start they saw that Germany and Finland were fighting two very different wars on the Eastern Front.   Finnish commanders were cautioned not to dishonor the Finnish military by even indirectly  participating in atrocities against civilians.   (shelling civilian targets in Leningrad)
Originally posted by Temujin

why did those countries join the Nazis in the frist place? they all wanted land back that the SU stole them previously.
That is true.   My point is that they abandoned Germany after a quality based (to a degree) Soviet Army demonstrated that it could defeat the German war machine.
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 27-Feb-2007 at 14:27
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 18:46
Originally posted by Jonny Starcraft

Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.  This component of the overall myth of Kursk is undoubtedly due to western authors trying to increase the otherwise paltry contributions of the western allies in 1943.  In actual fact, the German units on the southern face of the Kursk salient received new orders to renew their attacks several days after the landing on Sicily.  Hitler called off CITADEL not because a couple of British and American divisions were attacking a strategically insignificant island in the Mediterranean, but because the Soviets had (1) blunted and stalled the German CITADEL offensive, and (2) launched their own massive offensives on the flanks of the German attack.  These attacks soaked up reserves the Germans had planned on using to complete the destruction of the Kursk salient.  Without them, the Germans were too weak to continue CITADEL and they began withdrawing their units.
 
I have to disagree.  I just finished reading a book about Kursk as well as Field Marshall von Manstein's memoirs and the reason for this continuation of the attacks after the Sicily landings needs explanation.  With news of the landings Hitler wanted to call off Citadel immediately and it was only after considerable pleading by Manstein that Hitler authorized further attacks by 4 Panzer Army with the intention of bleeding Soviet operational reserves dry.  Were it not for Manstein's request due to his belief that a breakthrough was still possible, Citadel would have probably been called the day the Allies invaded Sicily.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 21:14
Genghis is correct on this one.
     
   
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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 23:14
Originally posted by Genghis

 
I have to disagree.  I just finished reading a book about Kursk as well as Field Marshall von Manstein's memoirs and the reason for this continuation of the attacks after the Sicily landings needs explanation.  With news of the landings Hitler wanted to call off Citadel immediately and it was only after considerable pleading by Manstein that Hitler authorized further attacks by 4 Panzer Army with the intention of bleeding Soviet operational reserves dry.  Were it not for Manstein's request due to his belief that a breakthrough was still possible, Citadel would have probably been called the day the Allies invaded Sicily.
 
Manstein's Lost Victoires is one of the most over glorified and over exagerated pieces out there. Its been discredited for many things especially when the soviets finally released some of there GPW files in the 90s. He sometimes mentioned soviet forces not even in the area. Still probably the best marshal they had though.
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 22:23
Well, I did mention that I had read that in two sources, so I'm not just going on Manstein's word.  And even if some of his info is wrong (which I don't doubt), I don't think he'd blatantly lie about why the Kursk attacks were called off or his intentions for asking that they continue, especially given how he believed his action would have lead to victory and he's not simply blaming Hitler for a possible mistake of his.
 
I also just got a book this very evening called "Hitler and His Generals" which is a collection of OKW stenographic records.  I'll see what they say about Kursk and then get back to you.
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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 22:54
Originally posted by Genghis

Well, I did mention that I had read that in two sources, so I'm not just going on Manstein's word.  And even if some of his info is wrong (which I don't doubt), I don't think he'd blatantly lie about why the Kursk attacks were called off or his intentions for asking that they continue, especially given how he believed his action would have lead to victory and he's not simply blaming Hitler for a possible mistake of his.
 
I also just got a book this very evening called "Hitler and His Generals" which is a collection of OKW stenographic records.  I'll see what they say about Kursk and then get back to you.


I actually wasn't disagreeing with you much just saying Manstein's book was a bit over hyped. I also agree with you, that though Hitler did meddle a lot with strategy the weakness of the German high command and top brass generals/field marshals were also many times responsible for mistakes. Fortunately though they had some of the best front line officers that sometimes were simply amazing considering the mess they would get thrown into.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 03:21
Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by Jonny Starcraft

Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.  This component of the overall myth of Kursk is undoubtedly due to western authors trying to increase the otherwise paltry contributions of the western allies in 1943.  In actual fact, the German units on the southern face of the Kursk salient received new orders to renew their attacks several days after the landing on Sicily.  Hitler called off CITADEL not because a couple of British and American divisions were attacking a strategically insignificant island in the Mediterranean, but because the Soviets had (1) blunted and stalled the German CITADEL offensive, and (2) launched their own massive offensives on the flanks of the German attack.  These attacks soaked up reserves the Germans had planned on using to complete the destruction of the Kursk salient.  Without them, the Germans were too weak to continue CITADEL and they began withdrawing their units.
 
I have to disagree.  I just finished reading a book about Kursk as well as Field Marshall von Manstein's memoirs and the reason for this continuation of the attacks after the Sicily landings needs explanation.  With news of the landings Hitler wanted to call off Citadel immediately and it was only after considerable pleading by Manstein that Hitler authorized further attacks by 4 Panzer Army with the intention of bleeding Soviet operational reserves dry.  Were it not for Manstein's request due to his belief that a breakthrough was still possible, Citadel would have probably been called the day the Allies invaded Sicily.
 
I think this explanation of why Citadel was called off has some merit. The Sicily landings were poorly executed and on a meaningless piece of rock but to Hitler they were much more. Suddenly his paranoia of landings everywhere was beginning to unfold and he panicked as megalomaniac, paranoid dictators do sometimes.


Edited by Jonathan4290 - 11-Mar-2008 at 03:22
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 15:09
Originally posted by Jonathan4290

Originally posted by Genghis

Originally posted by Jonny Starcraft

Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.  This component of the overall myth of Kursk is undoubtedly due to western authors trying to increase the otherwise paltry contributions of the western allies in 1943.  In actual fact, the German units on the southern face of the Kursk salient received new orders to renew their attacks several days after the landing on Sicily.  Hitler called off CITADEL not because a couple of British and American divisions were attacking a strategically insignificant island in the Mediterranean, but because the Soviets had (1) blunted and stalled the German CITADEL offensive, and (2) launched their own massive offensives on the flanks of the German attack.  These attacks soaked up reserves the Germans had planned on using to complete the destruction of the Kursk salient.  Without them, the Germans were too weak to continue CITADEL and they began withdrawing their units.
 
I have to disagree.  I just finished reading a book about Kursk as well as Field Marshall von Manstein's memoirs and the reason for this continuation of the attacks after the Sicily landings needs explanation.  With news of the landings Hitler wanted to call off Citadel immediately and it was only after considerable pleading by Manstein that Hitler authorized further attacks by 4 Panzer Army with the intention of bleeding Soviet operational reserves dry.  Were it not for Manstein's request due to his belief that a breakthrough was still possible, Citadel would have probably been called the day the Allies invaded Sicily.
 
I think this explanation of why Citadel was called off has some merit. The Sicily landings were poorly executed and on a meaningless piece of rock but to Hitler they were much more. Suddenly his paranoia of landings everywhere was beginning to unfold and he panicked as megalomaniac, paranoid dictators do sometimes.


I have to disagree with the claim that Sicily was a "strategically insignificant" island in the Med.  In fact it was well understood by both sides that this was a prelude to invasion of the Italian mainland.  It would have been difficult for the Allies to 'bypass' all of Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica and land on the mainland with Axis bases still on those island.  Not only the Allies' invasion forces, but their naval support, reinforcements and supplies would have had to run a 'gauntlet ' of Axis air attacks, outside of Allied fighter cover.  Taking Sicily 'opened' up the entire southern Italian peninsula to invasion.  Hitler's approach, rightly or wrongly, had been to 'hold off' Allied invasions by keeping up the fight as far away as possible, which was the entire concept behind setting up of the Tunisian front in the first place.  In that case Hitler accepted the weakening of critical southern front in the Caucasus / Stalingrad in order to create that front in Tunisia.  To expect him to do less in the case of Sicily, which was far more strategically important than Tunisia, doesn't make much sense.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 00:53
I think I meant to say "comparatively" meaningless but you have a strong argument for the importance of Sicily anyways.
 
Did the Germans have ANY chance of winning the Battle of Kursk? Could they have better planned the operation or better decieved the Russians enough to actually win the battle or did it not matter what they did?
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 16:27
Originally posted by Jonathan4290

...Did the Germans have ANY chance of winning the Battle of Kursk? Could they have better planned the operation or better decieved the Russians enough to actually win the battle or did it not matter what they did?


Of course it depends on exactly how you define 'winning'  the battle.  Some more recent scholar ship suggests that they did 'win' it in a sense, in so far as an objective for the attack was a 'spoiling' attack to distract the Soviets and inflict disproportionate losses on them.  In terms of the 'wider' objective of tearing a 'hole' in the Soviets' line and driving on to Moscow, no I do not believe that there was any reasonable prospect of that happening.  In terms completing the cutting off of the 'bulge', and pocketing the forces contained within it, that very well may have been feasible earlier in the year, but it was probably too late to reasonably expect to achieve that objective by the time the Germans launched their attack. Although the Germans no doubt increased their forces during the period of 'delay', so did the Soviets.  The Soviets also positioned their forces and reserves, as well as entrenching / fortifying their positions to a considerable depth.  All in all the Germans would probably have been better off attacking with their somewhat weaker forces earlier in the year, when there was a better prospect of turning it into a 'mobile battle', at which the Germans still held an advantage over the Soviets.


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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 17:28
One must take into account the intelligence the Soviets had about German plans. In fact it seems they knew everything about "Unternehmen Zitadelle" for months and the exact date of the German offensive. Even exact enough to start artillery fire on German positions right an hour or so before the start of the operation.

And also the defensive power of the Soviets was immense in this operation. Hitlers postponement of the starting date from May 4 to July 4 let the Soviets plant thousands of mines, dig a hole array of defensive constructs that wouldn't have been there if the operation had happened sooner. A handful of Tigers, Panthers and Elefants were hardly worth the 2-3 months that the Soviets got to dig in and create a highly effective defense.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 07:25
Originally posted by deadkenny


I have to disagree with the claim that Sicily was a "strategically insignificant" island in the Med.  In fact it was well understood by both sides that this was a prelude to invasion of the Italian mainland.  It would have been difficult for the Allies to 'bypass' all of Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica and land on the mainland with Axis bases still on those island.  Not only the Allies' invasion forces, but their naval support, reinforcements and supplies would have had to run a 'gauntlet ' of Axis air attacks, outside of Allied fighter cover.  Taking Sicily 'opened' up the entire southern Italian peninsula to invasion.  Hitler's approach, rightly or wrongly, had been to 'hold off' Allied invasions by keeping up the fight as far away as possible, which was the entire concept behind setting up of the Tunisian front in the first place.  In that case Hitler accepted the weakening of critical southern front in the Caucasus / Stalingrad in order to create that front in Tunisia.  To expect him to do less in the case of Sicily, which was far more strategically important than Tunisia, doesn't make much sense.
Agreed except the fact that the troops sent to Tunisia were from France. When it was clear there would be no second front for a while.
 
 
 
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 12:34
Originally posted by Sparten

Agreed except the fact that the troops sent to Tunisia were from France. When it was clear there would be no second front for a while.
 
Yes, when I said 'weakening' of the southern front in Russia I did not mean to suggest that troops were withdrawn from there (for one thing that wouldn't have made much sense logistically).  However, the Germans did ship in troops to Tunisia that otherwise could have been available as reinforcements (agreed, after the Allied Torch landings in N.A., it was fairly obvious that there was not going to be a 'second front' in France anytime soon) in the east.  Also, most importantly, and what I was referring to for the most part, were the air transport assets that were used to transport and supply many of the forces in Tunisia.  Those would have been critical to the front in the southern portion of the eastern front, in flying in reinforcements and supplies.  So my one-liner about Hitler being willing to 'weaken' the southern / Caucasus front in the east was suggesting the alternative to the move into Tunisia would have been to use all of those forces instead to supply and relieve the forces in Stalingrad.  That would have then resulted in the much earlier loss of N.A.  However, that goes back to my point, Hitler was more willing to lose the Caucasus and the 6th Army in Stalingrad than he was to give up N.A. without a further fight.  That all had to do with trying to keep Italy in the war.


Edited by deadkenny - 04-May-2008 at 12:35
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2008 at 13:51

After Rommels failiure at El Alamain, the Germans should have withrawn to Tripoli and evacuated themselves to Sicily. The next seven months just ensured that a whole German Army group was lost, a disaster even worse than Stalingrad, since it involved mech formations. The one thing I can't understand, Hitler denied reinforcements when Rommel could have one, yet sent over a whole field army when it was over and they could b captured en mass.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2008 at 01:40
It has often been argued (first of all by Guderian himself) that the development of the new Panzers (Tiger, Panther and Elephant) was an enormous mistake. The R&D and construction of these many and complex tanks 'costed' a lot of potential Panzer IV. The new ones were not good enough to compensate the many Panzer IV that could have been constructed.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2008 at 20:28
Originally posted by Maharbbal

It has often been argued (first of all by Guderian himself) that the development of the new Panzers (Tiger, Panther and Elephant) was an enormous mistake. The R&D and construction of these many and complex tanks 'costed' a lot of potential Panzer IV. The new ones were not good enough to compensate the many Panzer IV that could have been constructed.


i heard that before but i cannot fully agree with that. yes the Tiger (and related Elefant) was more or less a waste even though it turned out well initially, remember heavy tanks were not needed initially until the experiences with the KV series tanks and the T-34 'shock'. however, the Panther tank could destroy a T-34 on a distance of ~2km with a well aimed shot while being frontally completely protected until about ~500m. the point is, the Panzer IV was an outdated pre-war tank that was not capable of destroyign a lot of tanks. Germany could never hope to outproduce SU and USA even individually therefore it needed to rely on quality rather than quantity. the StuG type of SPA was in my opinion even superior (and cheaper) than the Panzer IV, which spawned the "Guderianente" and the Czech t(38) originated Hetzer SPAs. so Guderian at least partially got his will.
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  Quote Sergeant113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2008 at 17:50

I remember reading from somewhere that the SU used their intelligence to steal German armour technology and made T34 with some superior features compare to contemporary German tanks. For example, T34 had adequate armour and were more mobile and versatile, they provided effective fire power against both amoured vehicle and infantry whereas Tiger tanks though with superior fire range, power, armor, but  cubersome and extremely fuel-consuming, besides they must be immobiled when firing.  Such features enabled T34 to travel on terrains impassable for German heavier tanks, and the appearance of T34 was a psychological shock to German troops since they expected to confront a inferior army. Moreover, the Russian produced nearly 1000 T34 per month during the later period of the war. With such number plus the Allied force army, i agree with Temujin that only a new type of tank could have saved the German.  BTW, believe it or not, T34 was stilled employed by the Vietnamese forces during the Vietnam war as the SU's support. LOL



Edited by Sergeant113 - 09-May-2008 at 17:51
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2008 at 01:34
Originally posted by Temujin

i heard that before but i cannot fully agree with that. yes the Tiger (and related Elefant) was more or less a waste even though it turned out well initially, remember heavy tanks were not needed initially until the experiences with the KV series tanks and the T-34 'shock'. however, the Panther tank could destroy a T-34 on a distance of ~2km with a well aimed shot while being frontally completely protected until about ~500m. the point is, the Panzer IV was an outdated pre-war tank that was not capable of destroyign a lot of tanks. Germany could never hope to outproduce SU and USA even individually therefore it needed to rely on quality rather than quantity. the StuG type of SPA was in my opinion even superior (and cheaper) than the Panzer IV, which spawned the "Guderianente" and the Czech t(38) originated Hetzer SPAs. so Guderian at least partially got his will.
 
The part about the 'outdated IV's' is definitely wrong.  In fact most of the 'damage' done at Kursk was inflicted by the latest model IV's with the longer barrel 75mm.  The Panthers were only available in smaller numbers and many of them had experience mechanical failures.  True the Panther was an excellent tank, but it really took until '44 to work out the 'bugs'.  But one must also keep in mind the 'class' comparisons.  The up gunned and armoured IV was more in the same 'class' as the Sherman and T-34.  The Panther was roughly 50% heavier (around 30 tons for the others vs. 45 tons for the Panther). 
 
I tend to agree about the inefficiency of the 'exotics'.  The Tiger I was of the older German pattern (kinda like a IV on steroids).  The Tiger II was an excellent tank, but just too late and too few in numbers make a huge difference.  Sticking with the IV, the Panther and the 'assault gun' versions of those 2 would have been much more efficient. 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 18:12
Originally posted by Jonny Starcraft

Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.  This component of the overall myth of Kursk is undoubtedly due to western authors trying to increase the otherwise paltry contributions of the western allies in 1943.  In actual fact, the German units on the southern face of the Kursk salient received new orders to renew their attacks several days after the landing on Sicily.  Hitler called off CITADEL not because a couple of British and American divisions were attacking a strategically insignificant island in the Mediterranean, but because the Soviets had (1) blunted and stalled the German CITADEL offensive, and (2) launched their own massive offensives on the flanks of the German attack.  These attacks soaked up reserves the Germans had planned on using to complete the destruction of the Kursk salient.  Without them, the Germans were too weak to continue CITADEL and they began withdrawing their units.

Just wondering, why was Hitler calling for tactical retreat? It conflicts with Hitler's pattern. He never ordered tactical retreat in Russian soil, like back in Stalingrad and later on in the time when Russians pushed Germans in Eastern Prussia (Eastern Germany). Why suddenly order such a rational command?
     
   
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 21:46
Originally posted by pekau

Just wondering, why was Hitler calling for tactical retreat? It conflicts with Hitler's pattern. He never ordered tactical retreat in Russian soil, like back in Stalingrad and later on in the time when Russians pushed Germans in Eastern Prussia (Eastern Germany). Why suddenly order such a rational command?
 
Its not quite true that Hitler never called for retreats in Russia.  For instance, he approved the withdrawal from the Rzhev salient in the wake of the disasterous Stalingrad offensive by the Soviets.  It was simply a matter of Hitler not being willing to retreat unless he thought it was a good idea, combined with his insistence on constantly viewing the Soviets as being on the verge of defeat.  Until quite late in the war the he expected to concentrate on the east and finally defeat the Soviets.  Thus he was unwilling to give up territory that would serve as an offensive 'springboard' for his (imagined) future offensives against the Soviets.  Certainly his 'plan' in early 1944 was to 'crush' the Allied landings in France and then concentrate forces in the east.  Even his Ardennes Offensive was intended to 'knock out' the Western Allies so as to allow a concentration in the east, against Soviet forces that he viewed as being down to their last manpower resources.
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