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The Battle of Kursk - Myths and Reality

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  Quote Jonny Starcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Kursk - Myths and Reality
    Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 15:19

The Battle of Kursk: Myths and Reality

 

The Battle of Kursk is one of the most familiar battles of the Eastern Front.  Those casually acquainted with the Second World War usually know of only two battles between the Soviets and the Germans: Stalingrad and Kursk.  Unfortunately, knowledge of the Battle of Kursk is only just now being improved.  Despite a growing number of good analyses available to the public, the myths of Kursk are hard to put to rest.  This essay will hopefully help this cause.

 

Background to the Battle

 

The Kursk salient that the Germans hoped to surround and destroy was a result of the battles in the winter and spring of 1943.  After the Soviets surrounded Stalingrad and forced the Germans out of the Caucasus, their offensive did not stop.  It continued westward, taking important cities such as Rostov and Kharkov.  However, the Red Army overextended itself, and was ripe for a counterattack.  The riposte destroyed many of the Soviet units and cleared much of the territory they had taken.  This included Kharkov, but not much of the territory north of the city.  Hence the Soviet salient protruding into German lines.  The overall operational idea was to pause to rest and refit the forces that had participated in Manstein's counterattacks, to wait for the development of new equipment (Panther tanks, Elefant tank destroyers, and some other weaponry), and to build up new units.  Then launch the attack to destroy the salient.  The code name for the operation was "CITADEL".

 

From these plans, it is clear that CITADEL was purely operational.  Even a complete German success would not have fundamentally changed the strategic situation on the East Front.  At most, it would have delayed subsequent Soviet offensives, but it is hard to argue that a German success would have prevented them, or created some sort of long-term stalemate to allow the Germans to turn and defeat the Western Allies (the US and the UK).  It simply was not big enough, although it surely represented the largest operation that the German Army could have launched.  In fact, once launched it became clear that even CITADEL was outside the scope of what the Germans could accomplish.

 

Myths of CITADEL

 

There is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding about how CITADEL progressed.  This misunderstanding is fueled by oft-repeated, but false, descriptions of the combat that took place.  Perhaps no other author has contributed as much to these myths as Martin Caiden.  His book, The Tigers are Burning was published in 1973 and quickly became a bestseller, and was a "selection of the month" for various book clubs.  Due to its popularity it was reprinted in 1980.  It is fairly safe to say that the main, if not only, source of information on CITIDEL for western readers was Caiden's book.  This is unfortunate, because although his book is exciting to read (it ranks with Tom Clancy's best thrillers), it is almost entirely wrong.  It is so wrong, that I have seen it stocked in the "fiction" section of used book stores, which is entirely appropriate. 

 

Caiden's book is the product of Soviet propaganda.  With no access to Soviet archives, and since he did no archival work  in the (accessible) West German archives, it was inevitable that Caiden would be fooled.  Indeed the predicable result was a foolish book.   Why did Soviet propaganda need to inflate the significance of the Battle of Kursk?  Why did it need to inflate the scope of the battle and the losses the Germans took?  Because at the tactical level, the Red Army suffered greatly.  Some units were almost completely wiped out.  In order to justify the losses they took, particularly in the battle in front of Prokhorovka, the Soviets inflated the size, power, and losses of the German forces.  Caiden, unable and unwilling to filter this deception out, simply spiced up the descriptions and inserted the Soviet figures directly into his book.  Only lately, in the last 10 years or so, have we been able to gain a balanced analytical perspective on CITADEL.  As a result, it is time to do some "myth busting".

 

Myth #1: CITADEL was one distinct battle, primarily between tank forces of both sides.  Wrong!  CITADEL was gigantic, both in terms of the forces involved and the areas fought over.  And while the armored units of both sides did much of the glamorous fighting, ultimately the operation was won and lost by infantry divisions.  Most of the division-sized units employed by both sides were infantry, not armored.  Regarding the size of the operation, the "front lines" of CITADEL stretched for hundreds of miles, and the territory fought over spanned thousands of square miles.  While some areas saw rather high concentrations of troops, CITADEL hardly follows the popular picture of units wedged together, with no room to maneuver.  The size of the operation ensured that CITADEL was not "one battle".  Considering that the Germans used three armies, one on the north portion, two on the south, it is baffling to think that some people envision CITADEL as a tactical fight.

 

Myth #2:  The battle at Prokhorovka was the largest tank battle in history.  This is probably the most-repeated claim about CITADEL.  It is also misleading and almost certainly wrong.  The typical claim is that the battle at Prokhorovka was massive, involving two thousand tanks.  While a significant battle, it was nowhere near as large as the myth supposes.  One way people arrive at inflated numbers is to assume that all three SS Panzergrenadier divisions participated.  In fact, only one, the Leibsstandarte Adolf Hitler (LSSAH) fought this battle.  The other two were on the flanks of the LSSAH (Totenkopf on the left, and largely across the Psel River, and Das Reich on the right) and were fighting their own separate battles.  At the time of the battle, LSSAH had already been in combat for about a week and was substantially depleted.  By July 11th and 12th, the two main days of the battle, LSSAH was down to about 100 tanks, assault guns, and tank destroyers (not including observation tanks).  The Soviet units that participated in the battle at Prokhorovka were the 18th and 29th Tank Corps, along with a separate detachment under General Trufanov.  These units combined were able to field about 421 tanks, assault guns, and tank destroyers.  So, contrary to the popular claims of "thousands" of tanks fighting it out in front of Prokhorovka, we have about 517, of which 455 were actually "tanks".  I have provided data for the number of on-hand (that is, ready to fight) armored fighting vehicles for July 10, 11, and 12.  Note that these numbers fluctuate for a variety of reasons: temporary losses due to damage, permanent losses due to destruction, and returns from repair shops.

 

German AFVs On-Hand and Operational

 

AFV

July 10

July 11

July 12

Pz III

11

12

12

Pz IV

42

48

32

Pz VI Tiger

4

3

3

Marder III

20

19

19

StuG III

20

10

20

Pz I

2

2

2

Pz II

4

4

4

TOTAL

109

99

92

 

Soviet AFVs On-Hand and Operational

 

 

 

18th TC

 

 

29th TC

 

 

Trufanov

 

AFV

July 10

July 11

July 12

July 10

July 11

July 12

July 10

July 11

July 12

KV I

0

0

0

1

1

2

0

0

0

Churchill

18

18

8

0

0

0

0

0

0

T-34

50

68

26

122

123

20

35

35

27

T-70

49

58

35

82

81

29

9

9

6

SU-122

0

0

0

11

12

3

0

0

0

SU-76

8

8

7

8

8

4

0

0

0

TOTAL

125

152

76

224

225

58

44

44

33

 

Given these numbers, it is not likely that the battle at Prokhorovka was the "largest tank battle in history".  In fact, it is smaller than a battle that took place between the French and the Germans in 1940.  In front of Gembloux on May 14-15, two full-strength Panzer divisions (each with about 300 tanks) squared off with two full-strength French Light Mechanized Divisions (each with about 260 tanks). 

 

Myth #3: Russian tanks rammed German ones.  This fanciful notion has Soviet tanks, knowing that their guns would be ineffective against the tough German armor, close to point-blank range and begin to ram German tanks to knock them out.  Hogwash!  There is in fact no evidence of this.  It never appears in any reports, German or Soviet.  The stories of tank ramming typically focus on KV tanks ramming Tigers.  Considering there were a grand total of 1 KV tank (most certainly a command tank) and only 4 Tigers, this is incredibly unlikely.  Rather, these stories are a product of embellished accounts, and propagandized Soviet versions designed to "play up" the fierceness of the battle so as to justify their losses.  Note too that hardly any of the German AFVs present (just the 4 Tigers) had armor that would be able to consistently withstand Russian firepower.  The only documented instance of tank-ramming I am aware of is in Normandy, when a British Sherman rammed a German Tiger.

Edited by Jonny Starcraft - 22-Feb-2007 at 16:12
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  Quote Jonny Starcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 15:30

Myth #4:  Prokhorovka  was the "death ride of the Panzers" because the Germans lost so many tanks.

Traditional western sources, citing propagandized Soviet accounts, place tank losses at Prokhorovka for both sides at about 1200.  Considering the fact that less than half that number even participated in the battle, this number is ridiculous.  If it was anything, it was the death ride of the 29th Tank Corp, which experienced a 75% drop in its number of on-hand AFVs in one day.  In fact, the Germans barely noticed the effects of the battle at Prokhorovka, while the Soviets had several units rendered ineffective in a matter of hours.  Simply put, the Germans put a licking on the Red Army.  I have provided data for the number of "damaged" and "destroyed/abandoned" AFVs July 10, 11, and 12.

 

German AFVs Out Of Action Due to Damage

 

AFV

July 10

July 11

July 12

Pz III

0

0

0

Pz IV

0

12

0

Pz VI Tiger

0

0

1

Marder III

0

1

0

StuG III

2

9

0

Pz I

0

0

0

Pz II

0

0

0

 

Soviet AFVs Out of Action Due to Damage

 

 

 

18th TC

 

 

29th TC

 

 

Trufanov

 

AFV

July 10

July 11

July 12

July 10

July 11

July 12

July 10

July 11

July 12

KV I

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

Churchill

18

1

5

0

0

0

0

0

0

T-34

0

2

27

1

1

45

0

0

5

T-70

4

0

17

0

1

14

0

0

0

SU-122

0

0

0

1

0

1

0

0

0

SU-76

?

?

?

?

?

?

0

0

0


This hardly reveals a "death ride" for the Panzers.  The LSSAH permanently lost a grand total of 7 AFVs.  A further 25 were damaged and sent to repair shops, only 1 of which was a Tiger (note that no Tigers were destroyed).  The Soviets, on the other hand, permanently lost at least 134 AFVs, more than 19 times the losses of the Germans.  A further 125 were temporarily lost due to damage.  Therefore total AFV losses due to combat at Prokhorovka come out to 32 German against 259 Soviet.  It is no wonder the Soviets had to inflate the size and losses of the German force; they were beaten badly.

 

Myth #5: The weather at Prokhorovka was clear and dry.  Most popular accounts of the battle at Prokhorovka feature swirling tank battles kicking up enormous clouds of dust.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  We already know that there were no swirling tanks battles at point blank range.  Nor was there dust.  The ground was waterlogged, and the weather during the battle featured occasional thunderstorms.  According to the reports of LSSAH, July 9th was "dreary and rainy" and July 10th featured "heavy showers which hampered [the] division's movements".  For July 11 and 12, the division reported that there were "heavy downpours which severely hampered combat operations" and that the roads were "in very poor shape".  These are hardly the conditions that would allow for huge clouds of dust to be kicked up!

 

Myth #6: German forces were heavily supplied with Panthers, Tigers, and Elefant tank destroyers.  While the Germans did decide to delay their attack so that more new weapons, such as the Panther and the Elefant, would be available, these weapons were not present in large numbers.  A grand total of 119 Panthers went into battle with the Gross Deutschland Division (GD) on July 5th.  After 65% of those went out of action, either damaged or destroyed, on the first day they ceased to play a crucial role in the remaining week's worth of combat.  Note that there were absolutely no Panthers available to any other unit besides GD.  The paintings and drawings of Panthers in battle at Prokhorovka are absolutely wrong: none of the three SS Panzergrenadier divisions used Panthers at Kursk.  A total of 90 Elefants were available, and all of them were used by the 9th Army to help its divisions crack through the defensive lines on the north face of the Kursk salient.  Despite the Soviet accounts which have Elefants participating in practically every battle on the north and south faces, Elefants were used only by the 9th Army, and only on the north face (primarily in the German assault on the town of Ponyri).  Most of them were lost in the first few days of the fighting.  Tiger tanks were equally rare.  On the entire south face of the salient, only 89 Tigers started the battle.  About half of these were in the heavy battalions of the three SS Panzergrenadier divisions and the GD.  These four divisions started with 12 to 15 Tigers each, but by the second or third day of fighting, they were down to about 4 to 6 operational Tigers each.  This situation remained until the end of the fighting.  Popular drawings and paintings of waves of Tigers rolling toward the Russians are pure fantasy.  The battle where Tigers are supposedly present in droves, at Prokhorovka, featured just 4.

 

Myth #7: Hitler called off CITADEL because the Americans and British landed on Sicily and the Germans needed to shift forces to the western front.  This component of the overall myth of Kursk is undoubtedly due to western authors trying to increase the otherwise paltry contributions of the western allies in 1943.  In actual fact, the German units on the southern face of the Kursk salient received new orders to renew their attacks several days after the landing on Sicily.  Hitler called off CITADEL not because a couple of British and American divisions were attacking a strategically insignificant island in the Mediterranean, but because the Soviets had (1) blunted and stalled the German CITADEL offensive, and (2) launched their own massive offensives on the flanks of the German attack.  These attacks soaked up reserves the Germans had planned on using to complete the destruction of the Kursk salient.  Without them, the Germans were too weak to continue CITADEL and they began withdrawing their units.

 

Myth #8:  The Germans almost won, or they could have won.  Some authors would have us believe that the Germans could have won at least a partial victory in CITADEL.  Certainly the Germans were not decisively defeated in CITADEL.  While the 9th Army bogged down almost immediately on the north face, it was only forced back due to Soviet attacks on the German 2nd Army, protecting its flank and rear.  On the south face, the Germans had won nearly every tactical battle, including at Prokhorovka.  George Nipe has argued that given these tactical victories, the Germans could have continued to destroy the armored forces of the Soviet Union, and that Hitler called off CITADEL too early.  Nipe offers no evidence that: (a) the Germans could have continued to win Prokhorovka-style battles; (b) the Germans could have continued moving forward at all; (c) that the XXIV Panzer Corps could actually have been committed.  Let's examine these problems is turn.

 

While Prokhorovka offered the Germans a tactical victory, operationally it was a death knell for CITADEL.  The 9th Army's advance had already stalled several days earlier.  And even though it was defeated in the space of two days, the arrival of the 5th Guards Tank Army signaled the fact that the Russians were committing their armored reserves, and that from July 11 on the Germans would have to content with these.  It is doubtful that the Germans could have continued to defeat these reserves, given the context of the problems with the rest of the operation.  Even if a few more tactical battles were won, to what end?  CITADEL, as an operation, had failed before the battle at Prokhorovka; there was no way that the north and south face could meet to encircle the Soviet forces.  Continuing to attack would have wasted resources.

 

It is doubtful that the Germans could have kept moving forward at all anyway.  The north face had degenerated into static warfare before the Germans even got through all the defensive lines.  On the south face, the Germans enjoyed some forward progress, but at a tremendous cost.  Loses in AFVs, vehicles, and men were high enough to soak up a significant portion of the offensive power of the German armored divisions.  Further, the attack had been launched with insufficient infantry forces.  The salient that the armored units pushed forward could not be adequately protected due to a lack of infantry divisions.  Thus, the German offensive was contained and stalled.  Having the three SS Panzergrenadier divisions move forward after the battle at Prokhorovka would have made things worse, not better, for the Germans.

 

Finally, Nipe identifies the XXIV Panzer Corps as an "uncommitted reserve" that Manstein could have used to force the attack forward, at least on the south face.  This is only technically true.  The XXIV Panzer Corps, made up of the 17th, 23rd, and SS-Wiking Panzer divisions was theoretically available as a reserve, to be used once a breakthrough had been achieved.  This force was not useable for two reasons.  First, no operational breakthrough had actually been achieved.  Due to the depth and flexibility of the Soviet defenses, the German attack never achieved anything close to operational maneuver, despite the fact that it steadily moved forward on the south flank.  There simply was no space to commit the XXIV Panzer Corps.  Second, the Soviet attacks to the south of the Kursk salient, along the Mius river, required the commitment of this reserve.  As part of the overall Soviet operational plan for the Summer of 1943, the Red Army would absorb the (obvious) German attack while simultaneously launching its own attacks against the 2nd Army (to the left and behind the 9th Army on the north face) and to the south of Kharkov (to outflank the 4th Panzer Army and Army Group Kempf).  Given that the German lines had been stripped to provide reinforcements for CITADEL, the XXIV Panzer Corps was committed to blunt these southern attacks.  As armored units were pulled out of CITADEL, they too were committed in a defensive role along the Mius.  Had CITADEL been continued with the commitment of the XXIV Panzer Corps, the German lines along the Mius would almost certainly have been decisively penetrated, leading to operational disaster for the Germans.  As it was, the Soviet attacks still forced the Germans out of the Ukraine, even with the use of Panzer forces on the defensive.

 

Conclusion

 

The myth of Kursk has been surprisingly resilient.  Some of this undoubtedly is due to how long it remained unchallenged.  Powerful counterarguments have only been published in the last 10 years or so.  Even these are somewhat inaccessible: since they've been published by specialty presses they have high price tags and do not show up on the average bookstore's shelves.

 

It is certain that CITADEL failed and in no way were the Germans positioned to even score a partial victory.  The Germans did not fail, however, due to a defeat at Prokhorovka.  There was no "death ride of the panzers" on July 11 and 12.  Nor was there a very big battle on those dates.  It's time to put to rest the fanciful notions of waves of Tiger and Panther tanks riding across the dry, dusty plains to do battle with Soviet tanks at point-blank range.

 

It just didn't happen.

 


 

Glantz, David, and Jonathan House.  1999.  The Battle of Kursk.  University Press of Kansas.

Newton, Steven.  2003.  Kursk: The German View.  DaCapo Press.

Zetterling, Niklas, and Anders Frankson.  2000.  Kursk: A Statistical Analysis.  Frank Cass.

Edited by Jonny Starcraft - 22-Feb-2007 at 15:37
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 15:31

 Nice article. I also have some excellent website that talks about Battle of Kursk and the battles after Operation Barbarossa was commenced...

 

http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Kursk.htm

 

I can recall the discussion between Hitler and Guderian about the Battle of Kursk...

 

"Was it really necessary to attack Kursk and indeed in the East that year at all. Do you think anyone even knows where Kursk is?" to which Hitler agreed with him saying, "I know. The thought of it turns my stomach."

 

     
   
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 16:09
Clap

btw, it is Leibstandarte, not Liebstandarte, Lieb- means Love...

the essentials of this post are:

- the Germans won tactically but never had the chance to win startegically

- German tank force remained largely intact, the Soviet tanks got smashed (but didn't mattered much to them as they could replace losses easily)

- Germans didn't used much heavy tanks like Panthers, Tigers and Ferdinands and those that were there were not destroyed by Soviet tanks, that was just Soviet propaganda.
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  Quote Jonny Starcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 16:13
Originally posted by Temujin

Clap

btw, it is Leibstandarte, not Liebstandarte, Lieb- means Love...

the essentials of this post are:

- the Germans won tactically but never had the chance to win startegically

- German tank force remained largely intact, the Soviet tanks got smashed (but didn't mattered much to them as they could replace losses easily)

- Germans didn't used much heavy tanks like Panthers, Tigers and Ferdinands and those that were there were not destroyed by Soviet tanks, that was just Soviet propaganda.

And Kursk wasn't the largest tank battle in history
OK. Now is correct Wink


Edited by Jonny Starcraft - 22-Feb-2007 at 16:24
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 17:25
The author makes several  references to Soviet Propaganda and then relates that widely held beliefs about Kursk are in fact, myths.
 
Though I do not have the  specific knwoledge to refute his essay,  there is also an immense amount of German Propaganda concerning WWII.  The totality of this propaganda declares the following....
  - German units and German individuals achieved almost supernatural kill ratios in both land and air combat 
   -German units were rarely, if ever defeated in individual combat
   -Germans lost only due to overwhelming allied numbers and never by the skill  of their opponents.
    -Soviet tactics were limited to endless human wave attacks that  eventually wore the Germans down.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Feb-2007 at 17:28
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 18:36
Originally posted by Temujin

Clap

btw, it is Leibstandarte, not Liebstandarte, Lieb- means Love...

the essentials of this post are:

- the Germans won tactically but never had the chance to win startegically

- German tank force remained largely intact, the Soviet tanks got smashed (but didn't mattered much to them as they could replace losses easily)

- Germans didn't used much heavy tanks like Panthers, Tigers and Ferdinands and those that were there were not destroyed by Soviet tanks, that was just Soviet propaganda.
 
Um... what? I thought both had similar tank losses, but Soviet got the advantage because they could drag the damaged tanks and fix them while the Germans were forced to abandon them to prepare for defense in Italy... that's why it was considered a defeat for Germans. Germans did won tactically, but Hitler wanted to pull back. He had to fire some German generals for that decision.
 
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 18:37
Originally posted by Jonny Starcraft

Originally posted by Temujin

Clap

btw, it is Leibstandarte, not Liebstandarte, Lieb- means Love...

the essentials of this post are:

- the Germans won tactically but never had the chance to win startegically

- German tank force remained largely intact, the Soviet tanks got smashed (but didn't mattered much to them as they could replace losses easily)

- Germans didn't used much heavy tanks like Panthers, Tigers and Ferdinands and those that were there were not destroyed by Soviet tanks, that was just Soviet propaganda.

And Kursk wasn't the largest tank battle in history
OK. Now is correct Wink
 
Not in history, but should have been the biggest tank battles during WWII... right? The total number of the tanks fought in Kursk was like 8000 of them, me think.
 
So what battle was the biggest tank conflict?
     
   
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 16:37
Originally posted by Cryptic

The author makes several  references to Soviet Propaganda and then relates that widely held beliefs about Kursk are in fact, myths.
 
Though I do not have the  specific knwoledge to refute his essay,  there is also an immense amount of German Propaganda concerning WWII.  The totality of this propaganda declares the following....
  - German units and German individuals achieved almost supernatural kill ratios in both land and air combat 
   -German units were rarely, if ever defeated in individual combat
   -Germans lost only due to overwhelming allied numbers and never by the skill  of their opponents.
    -Soviet tactics were limited to endless human wave attacks that  eventually wore the Germans down.


so? does this not reflect the facts, according to you?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 22:55
Originally posted by Temujin


so? does this not reflect the facts, according to you?
 
No, it does not.  WWII Germany was one of the most lethal armies in all History.  They were not as good, however, as the Pro German Propaganda declares.  For example....
 
U Boats-  U boats were statistically beated by November 1942 (even earlier if tyou only count successes against escorted convoys).   This was before the allies had overwhelming numerical advanatage.  The U-boats were not beaten by the Libety Ships.  They were  beaten by British skill.
 
Stalingrad-  The Soviets did not have a huge numerical advantage.  Soviets win by tactical and operational skill that defeats not only German forces, but Romanian and Italian forces as well.  Small Soviet units are just as good or better than German units during street fighting phase. 
 
Ukraine 1944-  Soviets did have a huge numerical supereority as they lightning advance from Eastern Ukraine, through Romania and into Hungary.   But... Soviets show they have mastered Blitzkrieg and can coordinate the strategic  movement and resupply of entire armoured armies across thousands of miles. 
 
Kursk- I think the actual battle showed a great deal of evolving Soviet skill.   Soviet Army and Front level command skill was now roughly  equal to German command skill at this level.
 
Battle of Britain-  Outnumbered RAF fights Luftwaffe to a standstill.


Edited by Cryptic - 23-Feb-2007 at 23:13
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 12:40
Ok, but Germany still has the best and most aces in air combat, as well as some famous U-boat captains and tank comamnders. but what is so great about Soviets a) eventually killing starved, depleted German soldiers after numerous failed assaults? b) "mastering blitzkrieg and coordinating large tank armies". whats great about that? they should have been able to do that right from the beginning, i never questioned Soviets being able to drive tanks... besides, the Urkiane camapign in 44 was far from a lightning camapign, and Romania was not conquered but changed sides. and as for Kursk, whats the "tactical skill" you talk about? diggin in T-34s into earthworks or letting a superior tank force be shreddered by few good German tanks? what exactly shows superior skill in such a failure? and Soviets still had numerical superiority in all engagements.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 22:26

I just like to point out that the Germans had the best armies once not because of their weapons, but because of their generals' nature. Germans were probably among the worst shaped land after WWII. But they rose to become the most powerful nation during WWII. Why?

Against popular misconception, Darwin didn't exactly had the idea of the strongest being survives. According to his theory of the Survival of the Fittest, he commented that the species were most likely to survive if they are able to work together as a team and the ability to adapt to the changing environment as efficient as they can. That's why elephants do not rule over us. That's why dinosaurs are gone and we are still alive.
 
The point I am trying to make is this. Germans lost the war. But they did not stayed to be a lost nation. They sent people outside the world to learn beneifical things from foreign nations. Germans saw the dive bomb testing and improved it to use in in WWII. They adapted to the horrible shaped environement to become the world power once again. Rommel's division did not earn the nickname "Ghost division" by waiting and reporting every single things that they do. They don't have time for that, like the French did. They set objective decided by commanders. They move in, get the objective, and get out. They change the order, depending on the environment. If they send tanks, send out Flak 80mm.. then smash them with tanks. If they have infantry, smash them with machineguns. They saw the enemies' tactics, and they learned them, and used it to counter their enemy. They scattered when they are losing, regrouped quickly, and then started new attacks. Germans used all they got and attacked Poland and France in organized and coordinated attacks. Hitler did not interfered with brilliant general's plan. Politicans concentrate on politics. Let the generals decide the fate of war. It is no wonder that Germans began to lose when Hitler was becoming arrogant and started to make foolish military decisions.
 
Many brilliant German commanders were not like Hitler. They threw everything they got against the enemy, but they showed respect. Hitler was condemned by the Allies, but Rommel (Who fought for Hitler and killed many Allied forces) is still praised and respected as a great tank commander. Don't be arrogant and pride yourselves. Learn from those who are better than you, and use it as an advantage to counter with organized and coordinated attacks.
 
Allied forces did not do this until the late WWII. Once they opened their mind to learn that Germans were better and the fact that their methods should be learned and improved to make more successful counter is when the tide of war changed.
     
   
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 22:38
Originally posted by Temujin

and as for Kursk, whats the "tactical skill" you talk about? diggin in T-34s into earthworks or letting a superior tank force be shreddered by few good German tanks? what exactly shows superior skill in such a failure?
Because not all the Soviet tanks were dug in.  If they were, the Soviets would have lost at Kursk the same way the French lost at the Maginot line.   Instead, the Soviets used a well coordinated  combination of dug in forces and mobile forces.  The dug in forces slowed the German advance and broke it up.  Then entire mobile armies reacted to the German advances and eventually counter attacked.   
Originally posted by Temujin

"mastering blitzkrieg and coordinating large tank armies". whats great about that? they should have been able to do that right from the beginning, i never questioned Soviets being able to drive tanks... .
And so should of the French, British, Belgians, Dutch, Norweigans, Yugloslavs etc etc.  Training, Coordinating and supplying mobile armies is far more difficult than just "driving tanks".  My point is that by Kursk, the Senior Soviet generals were conducting armoured warfare almost as good as the Germans. 
 
Originally posted by Temujin

besides, the Urkiane camapign in 44 was far from a lightning camapign, and Romania was not conquered but changed sides.
The advance was pretty fast.  The Romanians switched sides because of  Soviet military skill.  The  Soviets had quickly and effeciently destroyed every German Army grouping in Ukraine and neither the Germans nor the Romanians (nor both) were going to stop them.
Originally posted by Temujin

as well as some famous U-boat captains
Most of the German U Boat aces were captured or killed by late 1942.  Though the U Boat Commanders were highly skilled fighters, it is also fair to point out that most of their kills were done int he "Happy Times" before the British orgainized escort forces.  Once the Royal Navy began to systematically protect merchant shipping,  even for the best U Boat Commanders started to become casualties.
 
Originally posted by Temujin

Soviets still had numerical superiority in all engagements.
Good PointSmile.   The Germans were unit by unit, the most lethal army in both WWI and WWII Star.  The Germans, however, were not as good, nor were the Soviets as bad as the Pro German Propaganda makes them. Wink


Edited by Cryptic - 24-Feb-2007 at 23:22
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 14:19
Originally posted by Cryptic

Good PointSmile.   The Germans were unit by unit, the most lethal army in both WWI and WWII Star.  The Germans, however, were not as good, nor were the Soviets as bad as the Pro German Propaganda makes them. Wink


Ok i agree with this, but there is one difference between Soviet and Nazi propaganda. Nazis just exploited sucessfull comamnders & aces for their purposes, Soviets MADE UP sucessfull comamnders & aces. or let them end up in Gulags for being better than Stalin...

but really can't agree about Ukraine, yes, the advance from Stalingrad to Kursk was fast, but they met with feirce ressistance at the Romanian border (see Totenkopf division) and again in Hungary (LSSAH division and Feldherrnhalle), always suffering more losses in tanks than the Germans. Romania like Finland changed sides because Germany could no longer help their aims, that is returning Bessarabia from Soviets, also Germany foolishly gave northern-transsylvania to Hungary and a small part of land to Bulgaria, so they had reason to fight against Germany. the Soviet advance might look swift, but it was also full of actrocios losses. and why not talk about the pockets Courland and Korsun?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 18:21
double post  


Edited by Cryptic - 25-Feb-2007 at 20:30
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 19:05
 
Originally posted by Temujin

 
Nazis just exploited sucessfull comamnders & aces for their purposes, Soviets MADE UP sucessfull comamnders & aces. or let them end up in Gulags for being better than Stalin... 
I agree with the reference to the Gulags.  50,000 Soviet Officers were purged and General Rokossovsky's teeth were knocked out by the NKVD.
 
I don't agree with the referance to making up succesful Commanders and aces.  Zhukov's skills at Leningrad, Moscow and Berlin were impressive by any standards.  Sure, some deeds of the Heros of the Soviet Union have been exagerrated, but then how many hundreds  tanks did Hans Rudel (Stuka Pilot) really destroy or how many planes did top German aces really shoot down? 
Originally posted by Temujin

and why not talk about the pockets Courland and Korsun?
The Courland pocket illustrates Soviet Skill and German failure.  The Soviets knew that the main objective was Germany.  Once the Germans were pocketed in Courland, the Germans simply bypassed them.  This is similar to the U.S. strategy of island hopping against Japan.
Originally posted by Temujin


Romania like Finland changed sides because Germany could no longer help their aims, that is returning Bessarabia from Soviets, also Germany foolishly gave northern-transsylvania to Hungary and a small part of land to Bulgaria
I disagree.   The overwhelming reason for Rumania and Finland to abandon Germany were Soviet military victories.
 
Romania had differences with Hungary for years.  While Germany was winning, these differences evidently were not that great.  The differences suddenly became too large only after the Soviets crushed German armies in Ukraine and were advancing towards Bucharest .  
 
Likewise Finlands war goals ( Occupation of disputed territory in Karelia, establishment of a buffer zone in USSR proper were fullfilled by German and Finnish victories in late 1941.   Finland then stayed with Germany for 2 1/2  more years.  The Finns suddenly had second thoughts only after the recovered Soviets defeated the Germans in the Baltics and then crushed the Finnish bunkers on the Mannerheim line.  
 
As a side note... 
I dont think that  the reasons for the high performace of the Germans were theri senior Commanders.  Sure, Guderian, Rommel, Kresseling etc were very talented.  But so were Zhukov, Koniev, Montgomery, Patton and Bradley etc. . 
 
The German secret was the skills of their regimental and Batalion commanders.  These men constantly outperformed the allies (Especially the Soviets).  In five years, the Germans lost very, very few numericaly even batalion verse batalion or regiment verse regiment battles.  (especially armoured)


Edited by Cryptic - 25-Feb-2007 at 20:32
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 19:39

Not that I am being biased against Finland, but it is possible for Soviet to avoid all assault against Finland in order to prevent the Nazi Germany to be suspecious of the true potential of Soviet power... but that's just a guesswork...

     
   
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 20:39
Originally posted by pekau

Not that I am being biased against Finland, but it is possible for Soviet to avoid all assault against Finland in order to prevent the Nazi Germany to be suspecious of the true potential of Soviet power... but that's just a guesswork...
And that guess raises a good question....  Why did the Soviets let Finland off easy in 1944/45?   The Soviets occupied and installed communist governments in all other German allies.  Maybe it was part of a deception strategy as you indicated. 
 
But the Soviets might have still been wary of Finnish Fighting skill from the earlier "Winter war".  Also, the Finns were technically a "co belligerant" and not a full ally of Germany.  When the Finnish troops occupied Soviet territiory in Karelia and Leningrad, they did not commit atrocities against civilians, refused to shell civilian targets during the siege of Leningrad.  Finalnd also refused to attack more deeply into the USSR than necesarry.   These factors may have led to the Soviets being relatively merciful in 1944/45.


Edited by Cryptic - 26-Feb-2007 at 09:35
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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 03:31
So how many tanks took part at Provkorka then ?
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:04
Originally posted by Cryptic

but then how many hundreds  tanks did Hans Rudel (Stuka Pilot) really destroy or how many planes did top German aces really shoot down?


as many as they have been credited with, don't forget Germans are extremely good in documenting stuff, or why do you think the Holocaust is so well documented?

The Courland pocket illustrates Soviet Skill and German failure.  The Soviets knew that the main objective was Germany.  Once the Germans were pocketed in Courland, the Germans simply bypassed them.  This is similar to the U.S. strategy of island hopping against Japan.


wrong. Soviets made several failed assaults on the Courland pocket, clearly intending to destroy the armies there, that dos NOT qualify as bypassing, forget it... Wink


without Romania Germany could have never invaded the Soviet Union, the German tanks all ran on Romanian oil. Romania politically clearly saw the Soviet Union as greater threat, they only allied to the Soviet Union because they wanted to survive, otherwise they would have never allied and supported germany from the beginning in the first place. Finland has a small army with very few tanks that could not cope with modern warfare, thats why they didn't made much land wins in the Continuation War, in fact Finland is grossly overrated, they might have been able to fight off an ill-disciplined Red Army in '39 but they were at a loss beign ont eh offensive themselves. Germany never threatened either Finland nor Romania with annexing their whole country respectively, they would have continued supporting Germany if the fate of war had not reversed. why did those countries join the Nazis in the frist place? they all wanted land back that the SU stole them previously.



there's a weird bug with my post... Confused


Edited by Temujin - 26-Feb-2007 at 14:08
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