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Something nostalgic

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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Something nostalgic
    Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 01:37
    Beijing (Peiping) in 1948...
 
 
 
 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 02:55

I wonder how you can post these pics. I find it very frustating that our pics' size limit is 50KB. Can't post a lot of decent pics with that size limit...

By the way, great pictures.~
     
   
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 12:28
Babyblue,
 
Thanks for the pictures.  Have not seen these pictures since I was a kid reading about Chinese History.
 
I never like the fact that Mao has his portrait at the Forbidden City.  Guess he was inspired by Chiang's portrait.  Both are egomanics.
 
Jiangwei
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 20:29
however, there is this difference with Mao's portrait versus Chiang's
 
With the former you dont have to see stripes and stars hung with " Chinese national flag" at same time necessarily.
 
and often its the little difference that makes big difference.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 12:30
Charioteer,
 
Understood.
 
I just personally feel that the Forbidden City is a national treasure.  No one individual should have their portrait in or on it.  I can understand the flags but that is it.
 
It is self-serving & distasteful.
 
Jiangwei
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 09:06
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Charioteer,
 
Understood.
 
I just personally feel that the Forbidden City is a national treasure.  No one individual should have their portrait in or on it.  I can understand the flags but that is it.
 
It is self-serving & distasteful.
 
Jiangwei
 
    Agreed. The only Chinese person worthy of having their portrait hung on the Imperial Palace would be Dr Sun Yat-Sen.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 10:01
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Charioteer,
 
Understood.
 
I just personally feel that the Forbidden City is a national treasure.  No one individual should have their portrait in or on it.  I can understand the flags but that is it.
 
It is self-serving & distasteful.
 
Jiangwei
 
Jiangwei
 
My opinion is Tian an men is part of the "forbidden city" or "imperial palace", but it is also part of the "Tian an men square".
 
Its the place where PRC officially announced its establishment. as a political symbol, Tian an men is on the National Emblem.
 
You can argue whether hanging leader's portrait on Tian an men is right or wrong, but thats another issue.
But consider Tian an men's role in PRC history, Mao is more qualified
than anyother to have his portrait hung on Tian an men. PRC is afterall not founded by nationalist part which DR Sun yat sen belongs.
As to who made more contribution to China i think is another issue. Even the conclusion is DR Sun, Mao still technically is the one eligable to have his portrait hung.
 
He may be criticized for many things, or disliked for many reasons, but historically speaking without him, there would be no "long march", thus consequently no birth of the PRC.
 
Taiwanese scholar Li ao said this during his visit to mainland,  for a century since the opium war, the Chinese were ever struggling to avoid two things, hunger and foreign invasions. PRC is far from a perfect country or government, but it provided the Chinese an opportunity to avoid both hunger and foreign invasions.
 
Likewisely, Mao is not perfect, but his role in history is evidently important.
 

 
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 12:22
To Babyblue & Charioteer,
 
I am not disagreeing with who contributed what or anything like that.
 
What I am saying is that the idea of "motherland" supercede any one individual.  The idea of a "motherland" is what gives us bragging rights to have the longest, continuous civilization.
 
It is my idea of the "Motherland" which makes me conclude that there is no one individual who deserves to have his portrait in Tian An Men.
 
Yes, Mao was not perfect and neither was Chiang.  However, my personal opinion, it was Dr. Sun who prompted the idea of a one China.  To me, he was the one who tied our country's legimatcy (we were being  humiliated by everybody since the mid-Qing) back to the days of the Han & Tang.
 
Talking about Chiang, Mao, and Dr. Sun is another post.  I am sure it may be pretty heated.  What I am trying to say is that no one individual deserves to have his portrait there.  Maybe Yongle Emperor.  If it would be a modern figure, I would lean toward Dr. Sun.  However, that portrait has to be much, much smaller.
 
Jiangwei
 
PS. I also hate what they did to Beijing by demolishing the wall and the making what TianAnMen Square is today.  I remember seeing these old pictures of Beijing when I was very young (reading history books) and seeing Beijing today, it makes me very sad.  Imagine what the Yongle Emperor would have thought?  Thinking about it is upsetting, I have to get a beer!Unhappy
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 20:33
so much have been lost..............Cry
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 04:04

What i am trying to say is "Tian an men" as a structure is not part of the "forbidden city" or "imperial palace" complex.
 
The "forbidden city" behind "Tian an men" actually is protected by its own imperial city wall along with a moat. Today only when you are inside that imperial city wall then you are inside the "forbidden city", if you are just standing on "Tian an men", it doesnt mean you are inside the "forbidden city" already.

Historically though, one could link "Tian an men" to the imperial palace under one condition, that it held activities which are associated with the state affairs, only because the "forbidden city" itself then served as the political centre of the state.

Nowadays, the "forbidden city" no longer serves as the political centre of the state, so the link between it and "Tian an men" is no longer valid.

However, "Tian an men" still has its political functions, not to the states of Ming or Qing, or ROC, but to the state of PRC. Thats why the image of "Tian an men" on the national emblem(of PRC) does not necessarily represent the "forbidden city" or "imperial palace", than it represents the state of PRC.

With that regard, "Tian an men" is not alone, but also part of the "Tian an men square", with surrounding buildings or monuments which also have either functional or symbolic purposes to the state of PRC.

Still, "Tian an men" is where PRC officially founded, and since the state of PRC is a successor state to China's "longest and continous civilization", its arguably the most appropriate structure that can be utilized to serve symbolic function to both the current state and to link China's past with the present.

Not to mention, "Tian an men" is also located on the "central axis" of Beijing, adding more symbolic meaning to the fact that as the Capital Beijing is political centre of China, and PRC is the legitimate government.

Beijing was not the Capital of former Nationalist government whether its under Dr Sun or Chiang, "Tian an men" is not the place Nationalist China officially founded.

So one can argue whether a leader's portrait should be hung there, as i have said is another issue. But there is the difference with Mao's versus Chiang's portrait, given that "Tian an men" served no such political functions(indeed Beijing was not the Capital) under ROC like it is under the PRC.

Thats why it doesnt matter when we say  "'motherland' supercede any individuals" or "Dr Sun is more qualified..", Mao is still Technically the only eligable person to have a portrait hung.

Which is different from saying one would prefer a portrait of him hung there.

Anyway, my point is  "Tian an men" doesnt just equal to the "forbidden city" or  "imperial palace", especially with the case of PRC.

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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 09:24
Originally posted by The Charioteer

He may be criticized for many things, or disliked for many reasons, but historically speaking without him, there would be no "long march", thus consequently no birth of the PRC.
 
 

 
 
   Do you actually don't think that's a good thing?Confused
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 09:30
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Maybe Yongle Emperor.  If it would be a modern figure, I would lean toward Dr. Sun.  However, that portrait has to be much, much smaller.
 
 
   Ok...here's what I think. If we're going to keep Tiananmen politicised like it is now, then we'd need a BIG portrait of Dr Sun and huge flag poles with the ROC flag hanging virtically, all over the square. Gee...just imagine the visual impactClap.
 
   Otherwise, completely de-politicise the Palace, the square and the surrounding areas, knock down all the monuments and blow up the mauseleum, like it has any use right now anyway. YES! looking at those old pictures...we need TREES!!! Heaps of them!
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 11:44

Originally posted by babyblue

Do you actually don't think that's a good thing?

what i think matters not,  because history doesnt serve my personal tastes.

As the old Chinese saying goes, "a good thing may be indeed a bad thing, a bad thing may be indeed a good thing". Thats why i think the Daoist symbol is very interesting, because there is a bit of black in white, also a bit of white in black, overall, things are never pure black or white, but still black is black, and white is white, contribution is contribution, mistake is  mistake. Qin shi huang is both "bad" and "good".

Ok...here's what I think. If we're going to keep Tiananmen politicised like it is now, then we'd need a BIG portrait of Dr Sun and huge flag poles with the ROC flag hanging virtically, all over the square. Gee...just imagine the visual impact

That would be cool, but still technically Dr Sun is not eligable, Tian an men had nothing to do with the Chinese state under nationalist government.

Otherwise, completely de-politicise the Palace, the square and the surrounding areas, knock down all the monuments and blow up the mauseleum, like it has any use right now anyway. YES! looking at those old pictures...we need TREES!!! Heaps of them!

Good idea, as a citizen of Beijing, i think we indeed need more trees nowadays, just look at the pollution and sandstorms.

But just dont mistake Tian an men as "imperial palace" again. Tian an men is Tian an men, imperial city is imperial city. Your claim is incorrect.

No one is politicising "the palace", today it is a museum and open to the general public. Tian an men is open to the public as well.

Besides, i wouldnt necessarily view construction of the people's great hall as "politicising", its the place where representatives from all the ethnic groups and provinces meet, therefore it should not be "de-politicised".
 
And perhaps only seperatist terrorists would want to blow it up.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 11:50
I can see that babyblue is a Nationalist.
 
I can see that Charioteer is a Communist.
 
Correct me if I am wrong.
 
I am neither.  I just believe in a strong unified (including Tibet & Xinjing) democratic China.  I think that is why I think my stance is inbetween both of yours. 
 
I am not saying who is right or wrong, but it is just interesting to see the difference in opinion.  I see what Charioteer is saying that Tiananmen is a political location.  I am saying that it should not be.  My personal preference is for it to be how Yongle envisioned it.
 
They can always remake another Tiananmen somewhere else.  They cannot remake the Forbidden City.  To me, from the north of the Forbidden City going down the avenue to the Temple of Heaven is sacred.  It is a symbol of our identity as descendants of the Han.
 
After reading the post, I change my choice and state that I would either have a picture of Yongle or nobody.  I though Dr. Sun was a symbol of unification, but I guess I was wrong.
 
Jiangwei
 
 
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 12:34

I can see that Charioteer is a Communist.

Its the same to say "i can see that Jiangwei is a typical American who is sensitive at spottting 'commies'" JK:)

My paternal grandfather was a communist guerila fighter alright, but it doesnt mean i am a communist, my maternal grandfather was a nationalist officer, it doesnt mean i am a nationalist.
Im just a normal citizen, i dont belong to any political parties.

Likewisely, just because i "praised" communist doesnt mean im a communist, what if i wrote something "praising" the nationalist government founded by Dr Sun, does it make me a Nationalist?

Taiwanese scholar Li Ao "praised" the PRC too when he visited the mainland, does that mean he is a communist?

like i said about Daoist symbol, just dont treat it as pure black or white.

I am neither.  I just believe in a strong unified (including Tibet & Xinjing) democratic China.  I think that is why I think my stance is inbetween both of yours. 

Given the condition that im a "communist", but if im not, circumstance changes, then the stance doesnt exist.
Similarly, i was trying to say the same about Tian an men. For instance, if Tian an men is not "imperial city", then the claim "hanging portrait on imperial city..." is technically incorrect.

I am not saying who is right or wrong, but it is just interesting to see the difference in opinion.  I see what Charioteer is saying that Tiananmen is a political location.  I am saying that it should not be.  My personal preference is for it to be how Yongle envisioned it.
 
They can always remake another Tiananmen somewhere else.  They cannot remake the Forbidden City.  To me, from the north of the Forbidden City going down the avenue to the Temple of Heaven is sacred.  It is a symbol of our identity as descendants of the Han.
 
After reading the post, I change my choice and state that I would either have a picture of Yongle or nobody.  I though Dr. Sun was a symbol of unification, but I guess I was wrong.

Actually, i think Yongle is not eligable to have his picture hung despite he built them. As i said before, Tian an men symbolizes the state of PRC, not the Ming.

 
There is difference, PRC is a multi-ethnic state which including Mongolian people, but Yongle and the Mongols were enemies, the relationship between the two peoples then was different,as was the nature of the state.
With this regard, Dr Sun is not eligable either despite he made paramount contribution to China.

The state of PRC belongs not just to the Han Chinese, but all the ethnic groups of it.



Edited by The Charioteer - 01-Mar-2007 at 12:44
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 13:14
Charioteer,
 
My apologies for my generalization about you being a Communist and Babyblue being a Nationalist.
 
FYI, my Dad served in the Korean War.
 
I understand your stance, but I guess we just disagree on it.
 
Jiangwei
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 13:29
"The state of PRC belongs not just to the Han Chinese, but all the ethnic groups of it."
 
I totall agree with your statement.
 
Jiangwei
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 14:55
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Charioteer,
 
My apologies for my generalization about you being a Communist and Babyblue being a Nationalist.
 
FYI, my Dad served in the Korean War.
 
I understand your stance, but I guess we just disagree on it.
 
Jiangwei
 
which division
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 15:17
I have no idea.  He talks about it, but he never goes into specifics. 
 
Talks about the uglyness of war.  Also thinks the MIG-15 is a beautiful machine. 
 
Jiangwei
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 04:33

My apologies for my generalization about you being a Communist and Babyblue being a Nationalist.

It's alright. But i do wonder such sensibility did not make you sense that our former(where is him now?) chief staff was an "anti-Chinese" fraud, and spot him the way you spot me? Never mind.

FYI, my Dad served in the Korean War.

I mentioned my grandfathers because i was trying to explain that im not a communist. I didnt intend to compare our family's military history.
 
Which is different from that i appreciate you exchanged your dad's story with us and indeed i salute him for what he did for our "motherland".

I understand your stance, but I guess we just disagree on it.

Personally, as a Beijinger, i would prefer to see my city retain its ancient essence as much as possible without the erosion of either communist like the portrait of Mao on Tian an men, or western influence like Starbucks in the forbidden city. etc
 
I would prefer the way it was just like you would, thats my stance. But as i said before, things dont exist or happen to serve my personal taste.
 
And just simply because i explained the difference between "Tian an men" and "imperial palace" doesnt make me prefer the way it is now than how i would prefer it within my heart.

 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 06-Mar-2007 at 04:53
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