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Baltic Crusades

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Baltic Crusades
    Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by DreamWeaver

There is of course nothing wrong with all these recreations and fabrications. Live and let live. Its just massively pretentious to be lectured by some members of these groups who have bought in to their own propogandan and are thus talking largely out of their arse.

I agree, no harm done.  My interest in the pagan revial is only from the sociological view. I do wish, however, that those pagan seekers wishing to re connect with their religous roots would give Christianity a chance.  Christianity is their true religous heritage, not the fabricated psuedo Celtic beliefs.

 

 


Fabrications are one thing, but for you to suggest that Christianity is "their true religious heritage" is going a little too far!

One might even suggest that you have to consider just what form of Christianity was "their heritage?"

Was it a form of Arianism?, or Catharism?, or "Baptist?", or ?, etc.?

We cannot assume, since most all of our past has been written or quoted from Roman Catholic sources, that these people ever regarded "paganism" at all, rather any source of worship that did not conform to Catholicism was "pagan", or worse!

We are, as a famous writer once wrote, "Looking thru a glass darkly!"
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 06:42
Originally posted by opuslola


Fabrications are one thing, but for you to suggest that Christianity is "their true religious heritage" is going a little too far!
 
Not at all.  We are talking about a potential neo pagan in the year 2010.  For these individuals (neo pagan propaganda to the contrary), Christianity has been their religous heritage for between 1700 and 1500 years. 
Originally posted by opuslola

 
One might even suggest that you have to consider just what form of Christianity was "their heritage?"

Was it a form of Arianism?, or Catharism?, or "Baptist?", or ?, etc.?
That does not change that the religous heritage of potential neo pagans is Christianity and not fabricated psuedo celtic religions.  For a neo pagan in New York, it might be catholicism.  For a neo pagan in Kentucky, evangelical protestantism.
Originally posted by opuslola

 
We cannot assume, since most all of our past has been written or quoted from Roman Catholic sources, that these people ever regarded "paganism" at all, rather any source of worship that did not conform to Catholicism was "pagan", or worse!
Very true.  But then there are evangelical protestants who say the same thing about catholicism today. Wink


Edited by Cryptic - 26-Jun-2010 at 06:51
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 12:27
Perhaps I should have couched my words in a different manner? It might well have been easier to have stated that to many of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, a pagan, was considered less worrisome than a heritic?

Some people might even believe or surmise that the very word "pagan", meant their speech or reading skills, etc.? To quote a phrase; "And the 'WORD' was GOD!", etc.! The "word" it seems was for a long time Latin! It seems some evidence tends to show that Greek reading and writing might well have only become important, late in the Middle Ages, etc.?, or even "very late?"

As you well know, we have been constantly told that the "Church" made or created ways to secure the "pagans" and even their religious rituals, and holidays into the "Greater Church", for what was perhaps considered as a method to absorb these groups into the "Greater Body of God", etc.?

DW, wrote;

"That does not change that the religous heritage of potential neo pagans is Christianity and not fabricated psuedo celtic religions. For a neo pagan in New York, it might be catholicism. For a neo pagan in Kentucky, evangelical protestantism."

I would have to agree with the above statement however! However to just what groups would assign the term, "Neo Christian?"
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 17:19
Originally posted by eaglecap

Dr. Madden talks about the Wends who were a slavic group, who faced the brunt of the Baltic Crusades. I would have to study this more to gain a better understanding. As bad as these crusades were I gather the Wend were not exactly peaceful and that to some degree this was done in self defense. Control over land, Christian missionaries were being killed and also Christian villages were attacked.
I would need to look at a variety of sources to really gain a good understanding.

There is always two sides to a story!
When talking about Wends - could you define which time period and area do you mean? Some sources define Wends as western slavic tribes from Elbe river to Bug River (including Poles) in the 10th century. Some people consider Wends as slavic tribes living on the territory of former eastern Germany and other sources calles Poles as Wends (eg. Scandinavian sagas in which king of Poland is called - Burizleif king of Wends).
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2010 at 18:30
I believe the latter are the Wends reffered to..............off the top of my head at least.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 04:54
Originally posted by opuslola


I would have to agree with the above statement however! However to just what groups would assign the term, "Neo Christian?"
Very secularized people who self identify as nominal christians only as a cultural convenience.


Edited by Cryptic - 27-Jun-2010 at 04:57
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2010 at 20:24
"Very secularized people who self identify as nominal christians only as a cultural convenience."

Oh?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 11:30
Cryptic, wrote, in answer to my query concerning just what constitutes a "neo-Christian";

"Very secularized people who self identify as nominal christians only as a cultural convenience."

So, I could guess that the Spanish "converso's"?, or how ever it is spelled, which tends to describe those Jews (and Moslems) in Spain who became "Christian" to avoid death or banishment, but who kept their real faith hidden from outside view!

Of course versions of this also existed at other places!

But, Cryptic, I sort of feel that your response was some what "cryptic?"

Was it?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 14:13
Originally posted by opuslola


But, Cryptic, I sort of feel that your response was some what "cryptic?"

Was it?
 
Yikes, it was pretty crypticConfused.  I misued the word "neo"Embarrassed.  Neo of course means "new".  I guess a neo Christian would be a recent convert to Christianity and not a fallen away or very nominal Christian.  
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 14:30
Thanks, I had some idea that one of us had missed the train!

So, let us all continue!
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by opuslola



So, I could guess that the Spanish "converso's"?, or how ever it is spelled, which tends to describe those Jews (and Moslems) in Spain who became "Christian" to avoid death or banishment, but who kept their real faith hidden from outside view!

Of course versions of this also existed at other places!
 



Conversos and Moriscos

To what level of conversion and them keeping thier own faith hidden (crypto-jews andcrypto-muslims) is highly debateable.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 14:09
Originally posted by eaglecap

Dr. Madden talks about the Wends who were a slavic group, who faced the brunt of the Baltic Crusades. I would have to study this more to gain a better understanding. As bad as these crusades were I gather the Wend were not exactly peaceful and that to some degree this was done in self defense. Control over land, Christian missionaries were being killed and also Christian villages were attacked.
I would need to look at a variety of sources to really gain a good understanding.

There is always two sides to a story!


Indeed Eaglecap, it might well have been the "Slavs" or "Sorbs", etc., that faced the brunt of the Teutonic Order, and the other "Orders", in that area of the world.
But, I object to the continued use of the word "Pagan" to describe these people! In my history, these people were nothing more or less, than fellow believers in the religion that has variously been called "Arianism" or even "Catharism!"

Thus both sides of the Roman Catholic, or Roman Orthodox Church opposed them!

What really disturbes me, as it oft happens, is the lack of explanation certain history writers have to connect the various names so the reader might well recognize that these people also are known by other names.

Thus you might read about the "Wends" and not know it since the writer chooses, for some reason or another, to ignore the other names these people are known to hisitory, by other historians, who mostly also ignore the other names!

Question to the list! Can you name the other names that might also describe the "Wends?", Note there are at least two more!
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2011 at 18:07

The Wends were pagan, worshiping Bogu and Zernabog.


Other aspects of the supernatural emerged such as Lada goddess of love and pleasure, Kupola god of the fruits of the earth, Koleda god of festivals and a name still used for Christmas in Poland, Dazhbog the day god, Stribog the wind god, fairies and other spirit-beings inhabiting the woods, water and air. Alfons Frencl, a well known Sorb writer, has also drawn attention to the famous Lusatian Waterman and to the Black Miller and Magician Krabat.

"In fact, there is an interesting legend which narrates how a wendish priest tried to convince his people not to convert to Christianity by dressing up in a white sheet and appearing to people in the forest, in order to convince them that such beings actually existed."- 

"Christianisation of Lusatia from 1032 to 1157 C.E. as a consequence of germanic colonisation resulted in deep ill-feelings towards the Germans for introducing Christianity by means of fire and the sword and by then imposing intolerable burdens of taxation on the conquered Slavs."- From 'The Smallest Nation'' Gerald Stone.

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