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Baltic Crusades

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Baltic Crusades
    Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 13:52
But, DW, anecdotal sources say?   

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 16-Jun-2010 at 08:13
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 16:43
What anecdotal sources? I havent mentioned any.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 08:11
DW, you wrote;

"A ramble through British Folk Lore would certainly enlighten such matters. That such practices with chickens should continue in parts of the country, though not neccessarily in the same manner (For such a claim would be as spurious as much of Welsh nationalsim, or indeed Cornish nationalism), rather unsurprising. Then again perhaps because Im British I come to accept such things as a norm."

I would suggest that most all of the material found in such sources only preceed from anecdotal accounts?

Perhaps I am wrong?



Edited by opuslola - 16-Jun-2010 at 08:13
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 09:32
You are. Some is undobtedly anecdotal, but alot is actually just continuing centuries old customs and practices.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2010 at 17:30
I am wrong?

And you also wrote; "Some is undobtedly anecdotal, but alot is actually just continuing centuries old customs and practices."

I would suggest that you look to your sources, and tell me, via your sources, just how "I am wrong" to consider them as anecdotal?

Just where do you use other than "anectodal" sources?, to support anything?
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2010 at 10:42
Im not even going to bother.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 16:25
Well! Why not?

Just what else do you have to do with your free time?

It is certainly, at least to me, to contiune to bandy this idea around?

But, perhaps?, it does indeed, deserve to be buried?

PS, Perhaps we might consider just why certain people in Cornwall, would contiune such sacrifices, since it seems most all old Englich practices like these, seemed not to have travelled across the Atlantic to the New England, or as it seems, the colony of Virginia or another English King/ Queen?

Did the people of Cornwall, not tend to leave England and move to the Americas', for any specific reason?

Were they so set in their ways? Or were times so good for them that they saw no reason to leave their "old ways?"

So much time, so little time to discuss!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 22-Jun-2010 at 16:43
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 16:53
I have no free time, Im a PhD student. LOL


Im sure Lovecraft would be most disappointed if no practices or eldritch and indescribable horro made it across the Atlantic to New England from Cornwall.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 17:58
Sorry DreamWeaver! I had little idea just how compressed your time has become!

NO PHD, for me!
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2010 at 18:01
translation translation conference paper translation its a daily grind
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 18:21
DW, I will peruse my sources and notes! I know I have some information concerning the Baltic Crusades, as well as questions concerning the mysterious "Orders" which constituted both the beginning and the end of them! Two "Orders" which it seems, literally created the warrior nation of Germany!

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 18:53
Originally posted by opuslola



Did the people of Cornwall, not tend to leave England and move to the Americas', for any specific reason?
 
I think that is a good topic. Dreamweaver, do you have any ideas? We hear alot about Scots, Irish and English migration but  far less about Welsh and Cornish. 
 
Cornwall is a small place and the local culture was quickly getting anglicized during the late Colonial period. Maybe they did migrate, not as Cornish, but as "English". Or maybe the Welsh and Cornish had other reasons for not migrating in mass numbers?
 
Originally posted by opuslola


PS, Perhaps we might consider just why certain people in Cornwall, would contiune such sacrifices, since it seems most all old Englich practices like these,
Another good topic.  Ireland Christianized very early and easily. That would seem to indicate the rapid disapereance of pagan customs from the island. 
 
What about the other celtic fringe areas of Wales, Scottish highlands and Cornwall? Does rural Wales have pagan traditions or just Cornwall?  Any ideas Dream Weaver?  


Edited by Cryptic - 23-Jun-2010 at 19:04
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2010 at 18:58
Actually someone has already done some investigation into these events;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_diaspora

I paid particular attention to this part;

"Some inhabitants of Tangier Island, Virginia, a former Cornish fishing settlement, have a Cornish accent that traces back to the Cornish settlers who settled there in 1686.[10]"

Very early it seems since my family only traces back to 1632 VA!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 23-Jun-2010 at 19:06
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  Quote Dreamweaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 04:48
Wales does have its pagan ceremonies and pagan rights etc, but these are all inventions of the 18th and 19th Centuries, particularly Iolo Morganwg, a noted opium addict. Bardo-Druidism and all that.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 07:49

Originally posted by Dreamweaver

Wales does have its pagan ceremonies and pagan rights etc, but these are all inventions of the 18th and 19th Centuries, particularly Iolo Morganwg, a noted opium addict. Bardo-Druidism and all that.

That is the extent of pre Christian practices here in the USA.  Except that the new age / pagan practices here were largely invented in the 1970s.  Some people used the earlier British authors as guides, others did their own thing.

Originally posted by opuslola


"Some inhabitants of Tangier Island, Virginia, a former Cornish fishing settlement, have a Cornish accent that traces back to the Cornish settlers who settled there in 1686.[10]"
 I hope that the accent stays on.  Several other islands in the Maryland part of the Chesapeake bay area speak various "watermans dialects".  A friend once told me that he would try to listen in on the C.B. radio coversations of local fishermen and he could not understand much of it.  I hope that Metro D.C. has not swallowed these places.



Edited by Cryptic - 24-Jun-2010 at 08:09
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  Quote Dreamweaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 09:59
Originally posted by Cryptic

That is the extent of pre Christian practices here in the USA.  Except that the new age / pagan practices here were largely invented in the 1970s.  Some people used the earlier British authors as guides, others did their own thing.



Come the Middle Ages even Welsh authors are clearly defininf themselves as being seperate and different to the people who had inhabited the islands prior to the Romans and the coming of Christianity. Thus I find arguments by some (usually nationalists and neo-pagans) that they are encating ancient rights and ceremonies with millenia of history behinf them, rather feeble since nobody can accurately of reasonably date them top before the 18th Century, and that the practices currently undertaken are themselves inventions or 'adaptations' of the 18th Century.

This is of course not to say that current aspects, rituals and prctices of folklore across the UK dont have their seeds in some ancient rites, but rather that time has 'evolved' these practices into something utterly different and disinct from their origins so as to be, in part, unrecognisable. They're not quite the same things.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2010 at 12:52
Originally posted by Dreamweaver

 I find arguments by some (usually nationalists and neo-pagans) that they are encating ancient rights and ceremonies with millenia of history behinf them, rather feeble since nobody can accurately of reasonably date them top before the 18th Century, and that the practices currently undertaken are themselves inventions or 'adaptations' of the 18th Century.
 
I agree completely.  U.S. pagan groups also claim a continuity of pagan practice by a small group of reclusive people.
 
As you mentioned, there has been no continuance practice by hidden groups. Modern day pagan religions range from complete fabrications to relatively accurate recreations.  I would place Celtic groups in the "complete fabrication" category due to elapsed time and lack of historic material. 
 
U.S. Nordic pagan groups seem to be relatively accurate recreations as there is far more historic material available for study  (Scandanavia was pagan until the 1200s) and some of the Nordic pagan activists are dedicated amateur scholars. 
Originally posted by Dreamweaver


This is of course not to say that current aspects, rituals and prctices of folklore across the UK dont have their seeds in some ancient rites, but rather that time has 'evolved' these practices into something utterly different and disinct from their origins so as to be, in part, unrecognisable. They're not quite the same things.
I agree. The Cornish chicken offerings are an example of this.  Over the years, I have read about pre christian based folk practices in rural Italy, Switzerland and the Carpanthian mountains.  The despriptions are pretty interesting.  


Edited by Cryptic - 24-Jun-2010 at 13:15
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 04:54
There is of course nothing wrong with all these recreations and fabrications. Live and let live. Its just massively pretentious to be lectured by some members of these groups who have bought in to their own propogandan and are thus talking largely out of their arse.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 14:32
I seem to do that more times than I would like to believe!

But it just seems to pour from my typing fingers sometimes!

Especially after an afternoon in a pub!

You see, I oft go to the pub about 1500 hours or so, CST! Thus by 1800 hours or later, I usually have a full load within me!

You might even notice that my spelling and typing skills, while not great at any time of day, seem to revert to "pig-Latin" sometimes!

Edited by opuslola - 25-Jun-2010 at 15:02
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2010 at 15:31
Originally posted by DreamWeaver

There is of course nothing wrong with all these recreations and fabrications. Live and let live. Its just massively pretentious to be lectured by some members of these groups who have bought in to their own propogandan and are thus talking largely out of their arse.
I agree, no harm done.  My interest in the pagan revial is only from the sociological view. I do wish, however, that those pagan seekers wishing to re connect with their religous roots would give Christianity a chance.  Christianity is their true religous heritage, not the fabricated psuedo Celtic beliefs.
 
 
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