Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Baltic Crusades

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Top Gun View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

Suspended

Joined: 19-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 493
  Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Baltic Crusades
    Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:10

what purpose was these crusades and had it succes Wink

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9886~per=41

Back to Top
Adalwolf View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 08-Sep-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1230
  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:14
The baltic crusades were meant to kill or convert the proud Pagan people's of the baltic to Christianity. So much for a nice tolerant religion that preaches love for all mankind!
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 15:47
Originally posted by Top Gun

what purpose was these crusades and had it succes Wink

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9886~per=41



The purpose was to seize the control of trading roads for merchants, conquer new lands and establish estates for knights and convert population to Christianity for priests. These three groups formed whole crusade movement Baltic.
The crusade (carried out by infamous Teutonic Order) had its success in modern Latvia, Estonia and Prussia though it didn't manage to brake the power of the last pagan stronghold of Europe - Lithuania.

Speaking about that book - for me it seems to be more about Scandinavic forays in Finland and contacts with norther Russian principalities most notably - Novgorod. Not much about actual crusades in Baltic lands.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 08-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1943
  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 16:12
True.

As the tradition goes, Sweden conquered and christened Finland through three crusades; first one taking place in the 1150s, the second in the 1230s, and the last in the 1290s.

Sweden held Finland for 600 years after this, making the Swedish crusades the most long-term successful of them all.
Back to Top
Jagiello View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 08-Feb-2007
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 316
  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 16:20
Originally posted by axeman

Originally posted by Top Gun

what purpose was these crusades and had it succes Wink

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S9886~per=41



The purpose was to seize the control of trading roads for merchants, conquer new lands and establish estates for knights and convert population to Christianity for priests. These three groups formed whole crusade movement Baltic.
The crusade (carried out by infamous Teutonic Order) had its success in modern Latvia, Estonia and Prussia though it didn't manage to brake the power of the last pagan stronghold of Europe - Lithuania.

Speaking about that book - for me it seems to be more about Scandinavic forays in Finland and contacts with norther Russian principalities most notably - Novgorod. Not much about actual crusades in Baltic lands.
 
Well don't look for a second ant my avatar LOL,but in fact the "last pagan stronghold-Lithunia" did not have any good army at all exept for some untrained and unequiped horse archers ,so it wasn't them who destroyed the Teutons.Read something about the battle of Grunwald-it was the "stronghold of christianity" Poland that mainly(with the help of the Lithunians,russians and tatars)that destroyed the teutons,not only at the battle of Grunwald,but during the long wars with the order-more than 100 years.(and the pagan stronghold was quicly "captured" by the polish priests and become another "stronghold of christianity" thanks to my peopleBig%20smile)
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 16:44
Originally posted by Jagiello

 
Well don't look for a second ant my avatar LOL,but in fact the "last pagan stronghold-Lithunia" did not have any good army at all exept for some untrained and unequiped horse archers ,so it wasn't them who destroyed the Teutons.

Well since you don't have any proofs to your claims, I am not taking your comment seriously. Just few comments from my side to show that you have certainly biased look on Lithuanian medieval army. You mentioned Lithuanian horse archers which is obviously wrong as Lithuanians didn't have their own horse archer troops because of the terrain and countryside of their lands. Horse archers are for steppe. Though Lithuanians acquired horse archer mercenary corps from Tatars and southern Rus principalities.

Read something about the battle of Grunwald-it was the "stronghold of christianity" Poland that mainly(with the help of the Lithunians,russians and tatars)that destroyed the teutons,not only at the battle of Grunwald,but during the long wars with the order-more than 100 years.(and the pagan stronghold was quicly "captured" by the polish priests and become another "stronghold of christianity" thanks to my peopleBig%20smile)

You are certainly one of those nationalistics. Have seen your type here on AE and also on other sites. There are few things you all share which is claiming superiority of ones nation over other nations.

Speaking about battle of Grunwald - It was victory of Lithuanian and Polish alliance, not exclusively Polish or Lithuanian.
Back to Top
Top Gun View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

Suspended

Joined: 19-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 493
  Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 14:15
Originally posted by axeman

Originally posted by Jagiello

 
Well don't look for a second ant my avatar LOL,but in fact the "last pagan stronghold-Lithunia" did not have any good army at all exept for some untrained and unequiped horse archers ,so it wasn't them who destroyed the Teutons.

Well since you don't have any proofs to your claims, I am not taking your comment seriously. Just few comments from my side to show that you have certainly biased look on Lithuanian medieval army. You mentioned Lithuanian horse archers which is obviously wrong as Lithuanians didn't have their own horse archer troops because of the terrain and countryside of their lands. Horse archers are for steppe. Though Lithuanians acquired horse archer mercenary corps from Tatars and southern Rus principalities.

Read something about the battle of Grunwald-it was the "stronghold of christianity" Poland that mainly(with the help of the Lithunians,russians and tatars)that destroyed the teutons,not only at the battle of Grunwald,but during the long wars with the order-more than 100 years.(and the pagan stronghold was quicly "captured" by the polish priests and become another "stronghold of christianity" thanks to my peopleBig%20smile)

You are certainly one of those nationalistics. Have seen your type here on AE and also on other sites. There are few things you all share which is claiming superiority of ones nation over other nations.

Speaking about battle of Grunwald - It was victory of Lithuanian and Polish alliance, not exclusively Polish or Lithuanian.
 
easy please  number one of the law her in the Netherlands is
 
FREEDOM ON EXPOSING YOU OPINION
 
and where it particulary swedish knights who joined or also some german
Back to Top
Kynsi View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Apr-2005
Location: Finland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73
  Quote Kynsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 16:55
Originally posted by Reginmund

True.

As the tradition goes, Sweden conquered and christened Finland through three crusades; first one taking place in the 1150s, the second in the 1230s, and the last in the 1290s.

Sweden held Finland for 600 years after this, making the Swedish crusades the most long-term successful of them all.


Im afraid that once again the true events are less exciting than the ones described in chronicles
The first crusade has been revised latley and many scholars think that it might not have hapened at all.

One might argue that the crusades to finland were really nothing like the crusades to Jerusalem.
It has been long a very popular idea that Finland was litterally conquered through crusades but it is more likely that Finland was attatched to Sweden via Chritianity. Probably there were some "sword mission" going on but probably not in a very large scale.
The third "crusade" to Carelia is most likely have taken place. The Carelians and Tawastians had long been raiding each others territories but this time the Tawastians would get help from Swedes as Novgorod had been supporting the Carelians.
The main reason for the crusades were not at all to convert the pagan finns but really political and financial. Finland has long been a battle field for the two powers of Sweden and Russia(Novgorod). In the case of the third crusade the reason was for the swedes to get a foot hold to the Hansa trading route to east.

One thing is certain though. The finns renounced their pagan beliefs during the "crusade times" (1100-1300). Though some documents can be found even from the 1600-1700s where pesants were accused of heresy

Edited by Kynsi - 13-Feb-2007 at 16:57
If you keep one eye on the past then you are blind in one eye, but if you
forget the past then you are blind in both eyes -old russian saying
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 04:40
Originally posted by Kynsi



One thing is certain though. The finns renounced their pagan beliefs during the "crusade times" (1100-1300). Though some documents can be found even from the 1600-1700s where pesants were accused of heresy




The same is true for regions of Western Europe, old faihts managing to cling on in some areas or bastardised into some other form.
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2010 at 19:46
Originally posted by DreamWeaver


The same is true for regions of Western Europe, old faihts managing to cling on in some areas or bastardised into some other form.
 
Some pre Christian rituals were maintained intact, though the meanings behind the rituals may have changed.
 
An article in Archaeology described excavations at a site in Cornwall.  The site was a natural spring and had been used for religous purposed since the bronze age. Following the arrival of Christianity, the site continued to be associated with pre Christian beliefs. At one point, local authorities ordered he spring filled in to discourage folk religion.  It was soon re opened for "agricultural needs".
 
 Anyways, the dig uncovered countless offerings of chickens dating from the Middle Ages though the 1700s.  The offerings all had the same format.  Then, the carbon 14 dating of some offerings were from the 1950s, and not the middle ages.  The modern offerings had all the characteristics of the older ones.


Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jun-2010 at 14:00
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 09:34
Some things never really go away.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 12:18
"Anyways, the dig uncovered countless offerings of chickens dating from the Middle Ages though the 1700s. The offerings all had the same format. Then, the carbon 14 dating of some offerings were from the 1950s, and not the middle ages. The modern offerings had all the characteristics of the older ones."

Could not some of us consider that the 14C tests were tainted? Or, hold your breath, "wrong?"

Seriously! Just how could "the modern offerings" have, "had all of the characteristics of the older ones?"

Was there any stratigraphy involved?

It all just smells?

DW, just accepted it when he wrote;

"Some things never really go away." Which indicates that he has no problem believing that even in the 1950's people were preparing their "chicken sacrafice" in the same manner or style, that made it indistinguishable from sacrifices made many hundreds of years earlier!

I am not sure that during the shortages that existed in Cornwall England, in the 1950's (and earlier) would have allowed the waste of a good chicken?

Perhaps it was done by the German POW's who were forced to work for English families after the war? (possible?)

I would even propose that these were "Cornish Game Hens?", or not!

Perhaps this was just a nice place to have a bar-b-que?

Edited by opuslola - 14-Jun-2010 at 12:21
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 13:23
Originally posted by opuslola


Could not some of us consider that the 14C tests were tainted? Or, hold your breath, "wrong?"

Seriously! Just how could "the modern offerings" have, "had all of the characteristics of the older ones?"
 
Easily, it is a very rural area and people passed the folk beliefs from generation to generation.  Passing folk beliefs from generation to generation is not surprising.  Traditional folk magic practioners in Appalachia and French Lousiana did the same thing, just over a shorter period of time (though the U.S. people may have more individual improvisations than their Cornish counter parts.)
 
More than likely, the offerings were made by a dwindling number of people who had a serious interest in the subject and sought out training from elderly people. The fact that it was a culturally isolated area (similar to Appalachia and South Louisiana) helped alot as well.
 
As a side note, Orthodox liturgies have remained the same over many, many centuries and the Catholic liturgy was only changed in the 1960s.
 
Originally posted by opuslola


I am not sure that during the shortages that existed in Cornwall England, in the 1950's (and earlier) would have allowed the waste of a good chicken?
Shortages would have mnade the offering that much more of a sacrifice and therefore perceived as more powerful.
 
Originally posted by opuslola


I would even propose that these were "Cornish Game Hens?", or not!
Good one. LOL.  The Cornish locals did eat alot of cornish game hens, and they also made alot of folk offerings at a Bronze age site.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jun-2010 at 13:36
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 13:42
Or, perhaps, they did not?

Just why was there a division of hundreds of years? Or, at least it seems that the discoveries went from "the Middle Ages" directly to the 1950's CE!

Were all of these old women in hiding?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 14:06
Originally posted by opuslola

Or, perhaps, they did not?

Just why was there a division of hundreds of years? Or, at least it seems that the discoveries went from "the Middle Ages" directly to the 1950's CE!

Were all of these old women in hiding?
 
Sorry for giving that impression.  The offerings that were found dated continously from the late middle ages through the rennasiance and up until the 1950s.  The offering practices were passed from generation to generation among people interested in doing it "right".  They were  not made by people with 600 year life spans.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jun-2010 at 14:15
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 14:42
Really?

Thanks for the explanation! For, without continutity, the site would be worthless! But were some of the sacrifices dated to the 1800's, and later?

You see, 14C testing is sometimes fooled by the material?
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 14:53
Interestingly, while watching Glenn Beck this afternoon, and after the visit of our President to my area, the broadcast was interrupted when Beck showed a number representing the "un-funded liability" of every American now living to pay for "promises!"

The number, shown was about $350,000.00 per person (American), now living!

Hey, want to apply for a new car or new home loan? Just show this number to the loan officer! Laugh!

Is Uncle Sam, now controlling your T V?

Edited by opuslola - 14-Jun-2010 at 14:55
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
DreamWeaver View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel

Suspended

Joined: 02-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 555
  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 04:40
Originally posted by opuslola



DW, just accepted it when he wrote;

"Some things never really go away." Which indicates that he has no problem believing that even in the 1950's people were preparing their "chicken sacrafice" in the same manner or style, that made it indistinguishable from sacrifices made many hundreds of years earlier!

I am not sure that during the shortages that existed in Cornwall England, in the 1950's (and earlier) would have allowed the waste of a good chicken?

Perhaps it was done by the German POW's who were forced to work for English families after the war? (possible?)




Apologies Im bandying about axiomatic British concepts. It not a case of me accepting the dearth of chickens and the manner of their sacrifice but rather the peculiarity of the people of Cornwall, in which I find the continuance of such practices to be entirely conceivable if not in fact expected. Such  would be true for various other regions of these isles.

Also in such out of the way places old ideas and concepts hold on to the present day. A ramble through British Folk Lore would certainly enlighten such matters. That such practices with chickens should continue in parts of the country, though not neccessarily in the same manner (For such a claim would be as spurious as much of Welsh nationalsim, or indeed Cornish nationalism), rather unsurprising. Then again perhaps because Im British I come to accept such things as a norm.


Not all of them were forced, many preferred to stay, and are still here to this day.
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:14
Originally posted by DreamWeaver


Apologies Im bandying about axiomatic British concepts. It not a case of me accepting the dearth of chickens and the manner of their sacrifice but rather the peculiarity of the people of Cornwall, in which I find the continuance of such practices to be entirely conceivable if not in fact expected. 
As a side note, Cornish miners routinely kept "lucky devil" statues in their mines until recently.  The miners then offered the statues coins and other gifts in return for protection while mining.
 
The "devil" statues were not devils in the Judeao Christian sense, but were derived from a pre Christian god. 
 
 
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959
  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:08
Dr. Madden talks about the Wends who were a slavic group, who faced the brunt of the Baltic Crusades. I would have to study this more to gain a better understanding. As bad as these crusades were I gather the Wend were not exactly peaceful and that to some degree this was done in self defense. Control over land, Christian missionaries were being killed and also Christian villages were attacked.
I would need to look at a variety of sources to really gain a good understanding.

There is always two sides to a story!
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.