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Dolphin
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Topic: Your views on Communism Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 08:45 |
Does it work?
Did Lenin mess it up?
Did Stalin forever tarnish the entire system?
etc etc etc
Your views
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Dan Carkner
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 09:04 |
Sometimes I think I am a bit of a communist.. but not in the way Lenin proscribed.
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Paul
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 09:19 |
Well, Russia was never communist. It was State Socialist. That Lenin & Trotsky buggered up the revolution is without doubt.
But then again I'm dubious to whether it's possible to have a revolution that doesn't leave things worse. I can't think of a single revolution in history that hasn't in the short term made thinks considerable worse.
Communism seems to work well in the few places it exists. Such as Israeli Kibbutz.
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Denis
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 09:33 |
Well its been argued that the Soviet Union was state capitalism, not state socialism even. I am inclined to argue that the Russian revolution wasn't a socialist/commie revolution at all, all you have to do it look at the fact that:
A) Russia was an agrarian society
B) Lenin argued all power to the Soviets, which in reality didn't happen.
Hardly the communist paradise the rhetoricists spout out is it?
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 10:00 |
As has been mentioned Communism, as Marx invisioned it, has never been implemented. When I refer to communism I refer to Marxist communism from here on in. Leninism and Stalinism are completely different. I think Communism is not possible at this time. However, as technology progresses and population increases Communism becomes alot more practical and desirable. I believe morally a socialist system is superior to capitalism.
To say Lenin stuffed the revolution would be quite inaccurate. The revolution itself went quite well, it was just what he invisioned for post-revolution Russia was quite flawed, and very different to Marxist ideology. One thing that was skipped was 200 years of capitalist dictatorships, which Marx claimed would be necessary to build the economic backing for Communism. However, whether Russia could last 200 years without a revolution considering the circumstances is very doubtful.
Stalin never really came close to Marxist Communism. The majority of damage done to the reputation of the system comes from American propaganda during the Cold War, which attached a stigma to the whole system in the eyes of many.
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 10:18 |
It doesn't work. Simple.
At least, I believe the enterprise should be communist NOT THE STATE!
Private enterprises should be communitaries, something like the cooperativism with steroids.
The state should be democratic, always.
Pinguin
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 10:39 |
Actually, it has been argued that socialism and democracy are the same thing. Granted this was by socialists, but people often confused the economic system with the government system. Communism is simply a socialist form of economic organisation.
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Paul
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 11:46 |
Originally posted by Denis
Well its been argued that the Soviet Union was state capitalism, not state socialism even. I am inclined to argue that the Russian revolution wasn't a socialist/commie revolution at all, all you have to do it look at the fact that:
A) Russia was an agrarian society
B) Lenin argued all power to the Soviets, which in reality didn't happen.
Hardly the communist paradise the rhetoricists spout out is it? |
But socialism is a branch of capitalism.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 11:50 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Actually, it has been argued that socialism and democracy are the same thing. |
Socialism is dictatorship for the bourgeois, democracy for the proletariat.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:08 |
Communism is a terrible idea. The idea that everybody has equal wealth, belongings, etc, goes against human nature. It goes against the will to compete. Besides, who would want everybody to be the same? Not me! I'll take good old capitalism any day.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:30 |
Originally posted by Adalwolf
Communism is a terrible idea. The idea that everybody has equal wealth, belongings, etc, goes against human nature. It goes against the will to compete. Besides, who would want everybody to be the same? Not me! I'll take good old capitalism any day. |
The will to compete? What the f... is that? Survival of the fittest?
Capitalism is a few centuries old at most. The universe is in constant change. You cannot stop it.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:40 |
Originally posted by Feanor
Originally posted by Adalwolf
Communism is a terrible idea. The idea that everybody has equal wealth, belongings, etc, goes against human nature. It goes against the will to compete. Besides, who would want everybody to be the same? Not me! I'll take good old capitalism any day. |
The will to compete? What the f... is that? Survival of the fittest?
Capitalism is a few centuries old at most. The universe is in constant change. You cannot stop it.
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Yes, survival of the fittest. Maybe I cannot stop change, but I can resist! Keep things as they were, not how they are.
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
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Paul
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 13:57 |
Capitalism isn't survival of the fittest. It's a much more quaint system than that.
Capitalism is a method of dividing society along non-meritous aristocratic lines where birth is worth more than talent. And then once this system has been created, maintaining it that way to the detriment of the fitter.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 14:15 |
Originally posted by Paul
...where birth is worth more than talent. |
You said this for capitalism or pre-capitalist societies?
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Dan Carkner
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 17:05 |
Originally posted by Paul
Capitalism isn't survival of the fittest. It's a much more quaint system than that.
Capitalism is a method of dividing society along non-meritous aristocratic lines where birth is worth more than talent. And then once this system has been created, maintaining it that way to the detriment of the fitter.
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Well said
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pekau
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 19:32 |
As I have already mentioned many times, all types of government work perfectly or sufficiently fine. It's the people that mess it up, like religion.
Communism was first theorized by Karl Marx. He introduced many wonderful and brilliant ideas He introduced many ideas that were great... but he, like many idealist, did not explain how some of his ideas were possible. For instance, he believed that all workers would rise up and with their determination, goodness and will to make the world better place, would successfully overthrow the elites and distrub all the goods equally to everyone.
But history proved long ago that wealth of the world do not follow the Law of Science. Wealth do not diffuse, they accumulate. And why not? We want more money, or most of us do anyway.
In theory, there's absolutely nothing wrong about communism. Everyone are equal, classless and people work together with no personal agenda and gets the job done. There's no crime, there's no violence... people live in the perfect order set by merciful government.
The problem is people. Many, if not all, want to become superior than others. As Napoleon in animal farm once said, "Everyone's equal. It's just that some are more equal than others." Mankind's nature of jealousy and their sincere will to become better than others would prevent any classless utopia that Karl Marx predicted. Granted, some may be kind and sincere, but the problem is that much of world's population want wealth, freedom and popularity. Knowing that people would get same wage regardless of how much they work... it is natural for the workers to get lazy. So what if they produced 3 AK-47 instead of 7 as requested? They would still get the same wage. Who cares if I got 20% in the Chemistry 30? I would get same apartments with similar wage as the person who got 98%. It's not worth it...
Perhaps strict and controlled education for everyone might make communism a step closer to reality...
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 19:41 |
Originally posted by pekau
In theory, there's absolutely nothing wrong about communism. Everyone are equal, classless and people work together with no personal agenda and gets the job done. There's no crime, there's no violence... people live in the perfect order set by merciful government. |
You see nothing wrong with this? People are equal under the law, yes, but not equal in anything else! Some people are smart, others are not. Some people are athletic, others are not. Some people are good looking, others are not. Humanity itself is inherently unequal! The theory is flawed from the very beginning.
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 21:53 |
There's no rule under Communism that says all people fill the same role nor, in most cases, are they necessarily completely economically equal. Why does the fact that someone is athletic or good looking mean they should gain advantage over others who weren't so fortunate?
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pekau
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 21:57 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
There's no rule under Communism that says all people fill the same role nor, in most cases, are they necessarily completely economically equal. Why does the fact that someone is athletic or good looking mean they should gain advantage over others who weren't so fortunate? |
"All Animals Are Equal, But Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others."
- Napoleon, from Animal Farm
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 21:57 |
That was talking about hierarchy. It doesn't really apply.
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