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galvatron
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Topic: Turkey,are Turkey can consider a Balkan Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 21:10 |
I have a question ,are Turkey can consider themself a Balkan states or Asian states ,thank you.
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Suren
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Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 21:44 |
I personaly think turkey is something between. Their land is 95% in asia but their culture specially western parts of turkey is very similar to balkan culture (If we just forget religion part).
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pekau
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 02:50 |
Geographically speaking, no. Culturally speaking, I would reply similar answer as Sirius99 did.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 13:48 |
First,we must clarify what "Balkan culture" is.Certainly,Islam is part of the Balkan culture through it's Ottoman past.
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pekau
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 14:22 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
First,we must clarify what "Balkan culture" is.Certainly,Islam is part of the Balkan culture through it's Ottoman past. |
Well, Ottoman Empire expanded to Balkans then converted them to Muslim... and not all of them are Muslim too.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 14:33 |
The Balkan culture is a mix of the culture of 4 Great Empires:of the Roman,of the Byzantine of the Ottoman and of the Astro-Hungarian Empire.For almost 1500 years the basic criterium in the societal division was religion.Therefore religion(Catholicism,Orthodoxy,Islam) played,and continues to play, one of the most vital roles in the Balkan culture.The difference ,though,lies in the cultural influence of every religion.Islam,as the latest religion in the region and with the fewest believers,has significant contribution,but not the same as Orthodoxy.Thus,it's part of the Balkan culture,but a relatively small part.
Edited by Spartakus - 09-Feb-2007 at 14:33
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
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Guests
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 00:06 |
Depends on who looks at the situation, to you it is a small part, to me it is a big part, as I practice it, and have cultural-traditional practices, norms, that are Islamic. It only though has the fewest believers because of the mass exodus/ and in many cases persecutions bordering on genocide over the last 150 years.
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Penelope
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 01:03 |
Spartakus, SOME Turks today can also consider themselves descendants of Genghis Khan, since the gene he spread, can still be found today in a lot of the population of both Asia Minor, and the entire continent of Asia itself.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 13:45 |
Originally posted by es_bih
Depends on who looks at the situation, to you it is a small part, to me it is a big part, as I practice it, and have cultural-traditional practices, norms, that are Islamic. It only though has the fewest believers because of the mass exodus/ and in many cases persecutions bordering on genocide over the last 150 years. |
Wrong.Even if you are a Muslim,the truth is that there are much more churches than Mosques in the entire Balkan peninsula.Concerning the muslim populations,they were always much fewer than the Christian populations.The Rum Millet was the greatest in the Balkans and this is not accidental.The Ottomans did not proceed to a mass Islamization because that would have a very negative impact to the economics of the Empire.You see,Christians had to pay extra taxes from which the members of the Muslim Millet were excluded,e.g the Haratz.The only areas with solid muslim population were that of Albania and Bosnia.Christianity was the dominant religion.Remember,we are talking about the Balkans,not the entire Empire.
Edited by Spartakus - 10-Feb-2007 at 13:45
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 13:48 |
Originally posted by Penelope
Spartakus, SOME Turks today can also consider themselves descendants of Genghis Khan, since the gene he spread, can still be found today in a lot of the population of both Asia Minor, and the entire continent of Asia itself. |
We are talking about culture.Islam does not have to do only with Turks.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Kapikulu
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 05:14 |
Both..A Balkan, an Asian, a European, a Mediterranean state..
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nikodemos
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 11:51 |
Turkey is a balkan state since a large portion of her population lives in eastern thrace and in the city of Istanbul.
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The Hidden Face
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 11:58 |
Kapikulu. Just what I thought. Turkey is a small version of the Ottoman Empire. Partly Balkan. Partly middle eastern Partly caucassian. Partly mediterranean. in terms of village-level culture.
However Turkey is considered to be a European state in terms of universal values and shares.
Edited by The Hidden Face - 11-Feb-2007 at 11:59
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 14:49 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
Originally posted by es_bih
Depends on who looks at the situation, to you it is a small part, to me it is a big part, as I practice it, and have cultural-traditional practices, norms, that are Islamic. It only though has the fewest believers because of the mass exodus/ and in many cases persecutions bordering on genocide over the last 150 years. |
Wrong.Even if you are a Muslim,the truth is that there are much more churches than Mosques in the entire Balkan peninsula.Concerning the Muslim populations,they were always much fewer than the Christian populations.The Rum Millet was the greatest in the Balkans and this is not accidental.The Ottomans did not proceed to a mass Islamization because that would have a very negative impact to the economics of the Empire.You see,Christians had to pay extra taxes from which the members of the Muslim Millet were excluded,e.g the Haratz.The only areas with solid muslim population were that of Albania and Bosnia.Christianity was the dominant religion.Remember,we are talking about the Balkans,not the entire Empire.
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They were also tolerant of Christians, nor did they impose Islam on the Balkans, however, in Bosnia the vast majority became Muslim about four generations into the Ottoman period of Bosnian history, and there were many other countries-regions where the Muslim populations was substantial, I never said that the entire Balkan peninsula had been majority Muslim, that was never the case but the statistics were much closer than they are now, a mass exodus, some forced, some voluntary, in addition to many incidents of killings/persecution, and forced (re?)conversion did occur in the mid 1800s. The Christians had to pay because it was seen as a "privilege" if you will to serve in the army, not necessarily the view of the countless victims who died in the Balkan wars, for example Bosnia's Muslim population severely declined in one period of wars because the supply of fresh troops fell largely on the Bosnian province. Either way, Islam is an important part of the Balkans, culturally at least, many of the same cultural norms, in addition to food and music are shared by all ethnicities of the Balkans. One example would be hygiene, no shoes in the house, etc, a lot of Islamic customs that Islam adopted, then through interaction spread to the Christian members as well.
I never claimed that the Muslim population had been in the majority, just that it had been much more sizable than now due to various factors some that bordered on like I said genocide, that is one reason why Serbia doesn't have many Muslims today, not counting the Sandzak area, because that had been part of the Bosnian province and earlier the Bosnian kingdom. My other claim was that it did have more influence than just a minimal one.
Edited by es_bih - 11-Feb-2007 at 14:52
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Guests
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 15:07 |
Originally posted by nikodemos
Turkey is a balkan state since a large portion of her population lives in eastern thrace and in the city of Istanbul. |
Precisely so
Province |
Area (km) |
Population (2000 census)[1] |
Population density (per km) |
Provinces formerly in the Vilayet of Edirne: |
Edirne |
6,241 |
402,606 |
64.5 |
Kırklareli |
6,550 |
328,461 |
50.1 |
Tekirdağ |
6,218 |
623,591 |
95.2 |
Sub-total |
19,009 |
1,354,658 |
71.2 |
İstanbul (European part) |
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6,541,593 |
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anakkale (European part) |
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65,030 |
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Total |
23,764 |
7,920,015 |
333.3 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Thrace
References
Considering that this is 2007, it may be well over 10 million, so 1/7th or 14% of the population is in Europe.
Edited by es_bih - 11-Feb-2007 at 15:11
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Spartakus
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 18:07 |
Originally posted by es_bih
They were also tolerant of Christians, nor did they impose Islam on the Balkans, however, in Bosnia the vast majority became Muslim about four generations into the Ottoman period of Bosnian history, and there were many other countries-regions where the Muslim populations was substantial, I never said that the entire Balkan peninsula had been majority Muslim, that was never the case but the statistics were much closer than they are now, a mass exodus, some forced, some voluntary, in addition to many incidents of killings/persecution, and forced (re?)conversion did occur in the mid 1800s. The Christians had to pay because it was seen as a "privilege" if you will to serve in the army, not necessarily the view of the countless victims who died in the Balkan wars, for example Bosnia's Muslim population severely declined in one period of wars because the supply of fresh troops fell largely on the Bosnian province. Either way, Islam is an important part of the Balkans, culturally at least, many of the same cultural norms, in addition to food and music are shared by all ethnicities of the Balkans. One example would be hygiene, no shoes in the house, etc, a lot of Islamic customs that Islam adopted, then through interaction spread to the Christian members as well.
I never claimed that the Muslim population had been in the majority, just that it had been much more sizable than now due to various factors some that bordered on like I said genocide, that is one reason why Serbia doesn't have many Muslims today, not counting the Sandzak area, because that had been part of the Bosnian province and earlier the Bosnian kingdom. My other claim was that it did have more influence than just a minimal one.
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Genocide?That's only a hypothesis,not a fact.Exchange?Yes.We have for example the exchange between Hellen Orthodox from Asia Minor with Muslims from Hellenic Macedonia.Still,in the millions of Balkanian Christians ,Muslims were only a small part.Concerning hygiene,i doubt that Balkanians did not know how to be clean before the Ottomans...... You have Orthodox Christianity,and other forms of Christianity in the area for almost 1500 years before the emergence of the Balkan National States.Islam existed in the area only for almost 500 years and with few believers,always compared to other populations.Ignoring that fact,it's like you ignore Balkan history.There is a cultural influence,but hell,it's much smaller than that of Christianity.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Guests
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 18:09 |
Medieval Christianity stressed on the uncleanliness of washing often...
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Guests
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 18:09 |
There were numerous indigenous Muslims before the 1800s
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Spartakus
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Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 06:36 |
Medieval Christianity stressed on the uncleanliness of washing often...
Catholocism maybe.Moreover it really depends on the social status.
There were numerous indigenous Muslims before the 1800s
Yes,but ,again,they were much fewer than the Christians.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Mordoth
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Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 15:43 |
Modern Day Turkish culture is dominantly related with Balcanic cultures .
In such a concern , I'd call Turkiye in terms of Balcanic articles .
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