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Do you think if the world was perfect like in the Garden of Eden, that racisms, and murders, and other crimes would not exist period? Because i mean God could take it away if he is all power and all...But what if the humans that come into existence still have alot of hate and want to cause trouble in a perfect world do you think God's perfectness would cancel it out or would god let the person test the other humans, and not interfere?

Originally posted by Top Gun I think that it's to hard to make all humans perfect for god because we are made to be independent and thats what God keeps. he would interfene in the humankind

Same here thats why sometimes its hard to believe in the Adam and Eve were once perfect and lived for ever story....Because in order to keep everyone from not sinning you would have to make them into like a robot which isn't free will.......

Sounds like a nice explanation pekau. But why did God make the fruit forbidden in the first place? And how does the sacrifice of Jesus, who is one with God; how does the death of one who doesn't really die because he is God, somehow redeem humanity's sins? And who decides what is a sin? God? in that case isn't the whole point of a grand gesture to overlook his own rules a little moot? That is the problem....

And Top gun, if God is omnipotent and he somehow created us in his own image, then why are we not perfect?

But why did God make the fruit forbidden in the first place?

God did not make the fruit forbidden, he said in Genesis 2:17 "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Therefore the fruit was not forbidden it only meant that Adam and Eve were perfect creatures in body and spirit, and that God intended them to live forever, knowledge can easily lead to the corruption of humanity and that is why God chose not to give his creations knowledge.

And how does the sacrifice of Jesus, who is one with God; how does the death of one who doesn't really die because he is God, somehow redeem humanity's sins?

Jesus DID die. As many theologians have debated, Jesus is fully divine because man's sin was so great that only God himself could redeem us. Jesus is fully human because if he wasn't then his sacrifice would be meaningless in relation to us. Jesus suffered as any other man would have suffered, actually moreso because for a brief moment Jesus' divinity left him alone for the first time, so that he could accept our sins. Therefore his sacrifice was very real, he COULD have been King over all of Earth, but instead he chose to be King over Heaven.

And who decides what is a sin? God?

Yes, quite simply.

in that case isn't the whole point of a grand gesture to overlook his own rules a little moot?

Overlook his own rules? I don't quite follow? Sin is merely the act of separating yourself from God. The severity of the sin is the amount of separation you put between yourself and God. Humans can only enter heaven as perfect beings, but we are all tainted by sin. Therefore until Jesus' sacrifice no one could be one with God.

As I see it, the original sin was the creation of our imaginary set of rules, our attempt to create our own world.

I disagree I see the first sin, eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge as a yearning of immature creatures wanting to go beyond their station. Adam and Eve so desired to be 'like God' that they were tricked by the Devil. It would be like a 12 year old who stole his dad's keys and took the car around the block. Definetily not ready to handle the consequences of the action.

So in other words, they thought that the natural order of things was not good enough and they had to change their enironment, and assign an arbitrary value to wearing clothes which they didn't really need.

Being naked has nothing to do with clothes, one can be fully clothed and naked at the same time. The nakedness has to do with the fact that Adam finally saw that his action was a bad idea. To use my similar analogy lets assume the twelve year old crashed the car into a fire hydrant. The first thing the kid would do, run away because he realized his father was right. In this manner Adam realized that he had overstepped his boundaries and had offended God.

In other words they questioned God's design, indrectly questioning God himself.

They did not question God's design, the serpent merely told them they would be 'like God'. Of course they wanted to be like their "hero". I mean God spoiled them, gave them eternal life and beauty, gave them mastery over all of his creation. They wanted to be like him as a form of flattery.

That statement you mentioned above though, I believe, sums up the views that Satan had during the Fall.

Asking a human not to sin is like asking him to deny what gives him his identity.

No asking a human not to sin is like asking him to deny the false identity he has given himself. Our true identities are our purified selves. What we had the potential to become in life but because of our sinful cultures we could not achieve, that is why God died on the cross and why we can have hope in his mercy.

Sup Cezar.

If A&E would not have sinned then you would not have been born (that's according to you, not me, I'm still in love with my primate grand-grand.........sister in law). So you're an offspring of two(at least) disobeyers of G's rules.

Yes, yes I am.

The theologioans might and may debate debate about the fact that J bought it , that's irrelevant. I don't feel like the guy did it quite well, I mean, think about the Inquisition only: What was it that in the name of Christ so many innocent people were put to such sufferings?

Many people have also been killed in the name of Freedom, does that mean freedom is wrong? Just because Jesus has been used by others inappropriately doesn't mean he had anything to do with that. Jesus never taught us to torture people or kill people or even to insult people. Besides God is only interested in our salvation, he guides us, but he lets us find our own way.

Also, the Inquisition is one of the most misunderstood periods of Church history.

God decides what a sin is? Then why isn't he available to me to make sure that I'm right. Oh, there are the priests who will deal with it. How about Torquemada, would you like him to be your confessor?

Why is it important to have a list of sins and the exact penance. Salvation isn't a bank where you can have positive and negative amounts of holiness. It's a matter of sincerety, humility and honesty. The sacrament of Confession exists so that we as humans can have a peace of mind. To quote something I was told once. "Sin is like nails driven into your body, Confession removes the nails, Purification by the Holy Spirit after death fills in the holes."

So a new born child isn't separate from God or is he/she a sinner just because he gets born?

All children that haven't been baptized are separated from God. Therefore they carry the sin of all humanity.

Who separates him from the Guy?

Adam and Eve, the first parents of humanity.

Does a new born know all the rulz of G?

Of course not, and for a matter of fact no one does.

What's a perfect being? A brainles creature, a computer?

A perfect being is a soul without the taint of sin, and in total communion with God at all times.

Well, if was Adam and Eve was my girl then G would really be a mean guy by not letting us get banged, What's wrong with it?

It wasn't that they weren't allowed to have sex, they just had no desire to have sex. Before the fall they were like children, and sex wasn't one of the concepts they thought of. Besides once we are joined to God in heaven sex will become irrelevant to us. Sex exists so that we may bring new life into the world, once we are in the afterlife there is no need or want for it.

One cannot question G's design?!

We are fully capable of questioning God's designs. It's just Adam and Eve weren't questioning his designs the moment they ate from the tree of knowledge.

What about free will?

The concept of free will is debateable. Free will means that we have the ability to erase our answer of whether we choose to live in God's kingdom or not. The angels did not have that choice, once they had chosen that their very natures prevented them from being redeemed.

Oh, the "what's in your heart/soul"  part should follow.

I don't understand what your getting at? But anyway, it's not whats in your heart and soul that matters because ultimetely if we are in a state of sin and denial of an inherent truth then we are at the mercy of God.

Whatever Id one may achieve that is not bound by the laws of christianity seems to be wrong. Well, since christians don't seem to be the major part of the humans living on this rockball I should be glad that in hell I will meet only tose who are not virtuous. Just need the location of the funny people and that would be enough for me.

We are only human and we are prone to making mistakes, all we can hope is that God forgives our transgressions and allows us to enter his Kingdom upon death.

Janus, are you a priest or have studied theology?

1. Freedom is a concept, Jesus is supposed to be the Man. More than that, He was supposed to achieve something by His sacrifice. Only christians state that He did it, others don't think so. Christians say they are right I say they are not quite right.
2. Salvation is "a matter of sincerety, humility and honesty". Who do I have to be sincere with, humble and honest. God? Why how can I do it if the guy doesn't even speak to me. Read the holy books? I've read them but they are more like tangled fairy tales than direct guides. Maybe I'm hard headed but wouldn't it be easyer if G just pops out so that everybody witness him and sttes his will? Why so much confusion? Does he enjoys seeing people doing wrong things?
3. Poor babies, they not even know they are such sinners! Hey, what happens once a kid is baptized, his sins are all erased. That's quick man, maybe I should make arangements to get baptized 1 second before I pass out. Oh no, that would throw me in Heaven where ...
4. ...sex is irrelevant!!! Well I don't know about hell but I'm sure that heaven is definitely not interesting. If I die at 90 I would really like to go to a place where I could act like I was 20. Anyway, why is sex defined as a sin. Why does the Church or God consider something that is absolutely natural as being something outrageous? Maybe eating or breathing are sins too. Free thinking (not bound by the limits of the religious dogmas) seems for sure to be a capital sin. Well I can't help it, I'm thinking, what am I supposed to do? Perform a lobotomy to myself?
5. Free will defined as chosing between "go to heaven if you do that" or "go to hell if you don't" is only freedom of choice (a quite twisted one too) no free will at all. Free will means that I chose to do "this", not "that" not because there is a reward or punishment just because that's how I want/feel/care. Some choice God offers us,too, why don't he make that "free" choice himself? What if I don't want to make that choice?

Could you accept the idea of an inconsistent God?

Christianity is so complicated

You both think that you are right. I think of both of you to not necessarily be right not that you are wrong.

Speaking for myself, I know that I am not right, but I know that I am not wrong either. Religion is how God guides us to him, it is not a means in and of itself.

You are both trying to be consistent but consistency on your opinion is sticking to a religious dogma that is inconsistent.

What pray tell is so inconsistent about the Abrahamic Religions?

Whenever one questions someting about your religion you com with explanations based your or other coreligionaries ideas regarding the meaning of some quotes or same actions.

Which is the same thing a scientist does when evolutionary theory is questioned. Everyone is supposed to support their claims with observed phenomena, religion is no different than any other belief or idea.

You both state that we are given free will yet you also define this as the choice between living acording to the rules of God, an eventually get some kind of eternal reward, and not doing so, wich results in some kind of terrible eternal unhappines or something like that.

Cezar you need to understand, heaven isn't a reward, hell isn't a punishment. The differences between them are the differences between happiness and sadness. In life you can be either happy or sad at any given moment but in the afterlife you can only be one or the other. Hell is no more a punishment than being sad is, heaven is no more a reward than being happy.

My opinion is that people are more important than God.

Which is utterly inconsistent with the concept of God, because the very definition of his nature is a being that has no equal or superior.

Tha fact that bothers me with religious people is that they are bound by their belief to give more consideration to an entity not to the people around them.

They are not bound by any belief you can either get to heaven on your own or with others, in fact Abrahamic religions have always been about people first, theology second.

Jesus was supposed to be for people but he was in fact satisfying some kind of twisted judgemend of God (why did people need to be unsinned by a single individual and why once it happened it wasn't permanent?). O and since God and Jesus were One that looks like some kind af sado-maso behaviour.

The sacrifice of Jesus is permanent. No one could be allowed entry into heaven until God sacrificed his Son on the cross. We still have original sin because we must carry the burden of our predecessors. However that sin has all ready been paid for by God's sacrifice. The only thing we have to do is accept him into our hearts and we shall know everlasting life.

Sado-Masochist behavior? God took no pleasure in what needed to be done. He only did it because his love for us was so great and because he did not want to see us suffer through death.

People dying in the name of Jesus is stupidity, people dying in the name of freedom is heroism. Same goes for Allah, Mohamed or whatever religious figure.

Why is freedom heroism and religion stupid. What about people who die for freedom of religion? Are they idiots or heroes? Calling freedom a noble cause to die for is missing the point. Anything we experience in this life is merely transitory, it has no substance, everything we do should be focused on the more real afterlife.

What kind of a meaningless line is that? It's like saying most books are boring until you read them!

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Originally posted by Cezar Omar, does that mean tha Islamism is simple? Most things are complicated until you understand them