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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers

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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
    Posted: 02-Apr-2013 at 18:29
I figure I post one more and transfer some data so that people can get a better Idea of there Status and Statistics in terms weight and size comparisons here...


I found out that most of all the real heavy weight tigers that linger in the 600-800 pound ranges in the wild have been only Estimates, an non-verified...the common trend that is used by ignorant scientist who copy a faulty statement without out doing the actual study them selves. Alot of scientist, or zoologist (of today) like credability in its verifications so you'd hardly ever hear a well known "fields-men tiger zoologist" quote things off of like wikipedia's claims, of 847 pounds of tigers in the wild, when they them selves quoted an stated no wild tiger should have ever weighed pass 650 pounds without exception to the eco-systems sustainability, or in lucrative terms, the 800 pound wild tiger could just have been some type of freak monster sized tiger one of the raritys of the world which still its credability is lower than low it self, for owners to zoologist who have witnessd and analyzed the photo all have stated that the claim dosent even fit near the evidence, it shows more of a 500 pound tiger when compared photolistically or in other words compared with other tigers in realitive same distance with a hunter via distance effect, because the documented weights have a pretty well established consistancy via Stud book of records, to well known establishment who many agreed and show they both... siberian and bengal as a "whole Sub-speices" both cant even lay the claim of being just 500 pounds as there sub-peices "whole" average....

Tiger weight’s show they avearge no bigger than lion’s
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.
www.science.smith.edu/msi/pdf/i0076-3519-152-01-0001.pdf

Taking what was the heviest weights of all Tiger Sub-speices in these records would be…
258
195
175
240
306
140
141
100
1555 Kg

Divided by 8 equals to…
194= 429 pounds


Taking what was the low end of each sub speices in this same records would be…
180
150
130
170
180
100
100
 90
1100 kg
Divided by 8=
137.5=302 pounds


2.

On average the lion is the biggest living cat…
Tigers of the World: The Science, Politics and Conservation of Panthera Tigris
http://books.google.com/books?id=XFIbjBEQolMC&pg=PA54&dq=indian+tiger+larger+than+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_qSRUKbXDua8igKLr4CYBw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA

3.

The tiger is inferior in size to the lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=tRVJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA23&dq=ferocious++lion+tiger+fight+king&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ei81UZfPKov2qwGmhoHoDg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw

4.
The bengal tiger is thinner an lighter than the lion
The Illustrated Magazine of Art, Volumes 3-4
http://books.google.com/books?id=BRVaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=china++lion+fights+fighting+kills+tiger&source=bl&ots=MN04rRtSHs&sig=Nz3XMnyzoBeXmXUUAFzpcZ9KLAc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aZQGUOiWEIHg2gWah9S6BQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzgK

5.
Table 1. Location, physical status, size and circumstances of deaths of Amur tiger males in the Russian Far East, 1970-1994.
Basically 40 year census showing tigers with none passing 200 kg
http://www.tigers.ru/articles/tab_eng.html#tab1

6.
In size the lion is similar to the tiger
The London Magazine, Volume 19
By John Scott, John Taylor
http://books.google.com/books?id=xe4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo

7.
Hewett (1938), Inverarity (1888), Baker (1890), Buton (1933, 1948), Hornaday (1885), Meinertzhagen (1939) and Sanderson (1912) shows an average 422 lbs for bengal tigers,


8.

Dumbar brander weighed 45 very large tigers with its average being 420 pounds.
Bert klineburger 1990


9.
Igor nikolaev weighed stated no tiger ever exceeds 650 pounds in the wild, an weighed 15  tigresses exploiting a 450 pound estimation because not one tigres exceeded 320 pounds, also stating these are the difference between real weights and hunters estimates


An for the most creditable stand points of both lion and tiger weights that are confirmed in the wild, by people with substance on the matter show that 650 pounds for the the tiger is logical to be the most confirmed heviest tiger…in suspect to the 306 Kg tiger could as well be the exception, for little confrimation is veryfied via crediability”…while the wild lion who weighed in at 690 pounds=313 Kg had been stated he was weighed more than multiple times for credability, which is irrefutable.

10.
Histoire naturelle des mammifères ...
By Paul Gervais
Tiger Felis (Felis Tigris, Linnaeus). The real Tiger or Royal Tiger, should not be confused with sprinkled species of the same tribe, such as the Panther, the Once, etc.., Is an Animal exclusively Asian living in the islands of Java and Sumatra, throughout mainland India, the Chinese empire and to Siberia. Some copies come to the borders of Europe, and Mr. Nodmann reports that Tiger 1835 a large size was killed from Tiflis.
The Tiger is almost as large as the Lion, but he has the most elegant dress.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=lion+tigre+tue+lutte&sig=nw3ALChwJt2Jzjw0fgYMSUtgq7k&ei=PeJrUKnSIoGkigLGvYHoCg&id=R-ZAAAAAcAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&ots=sGh2DHpF3s&output=html_text


11.
The average male Bengal  tiger weighs about 200 kg 227 would be considered one of the heviest.
~By trilok chandra majupuria


12.
Bengal tigers average 160-230-290 kg=193.3 kg=425 pounds



13.
Average sized male siberian tiger is 197 Kg=433.4 pounds


14.
Dale miquelle  Program director wcs russia, average weights of there siberian tigers 430 pounds.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/schamah/SiberianCloseto400.jpg
[/img]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s214/craigkennion/dsfdfsdsfdsfdfsd.jpg[/img]

15.
Mel sunquist largest tiger hes ever captured was 600 pounds, an states most weights are suspected to please the king or royal guest
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/schamah/SiberianCloseto400.jpg">
http://english.savechinastigers.org/node/31


You see what this guy said^^^ weight’s are usually over-exaggerated

16.
THE WAY OF THE TIGER 2002 By K. Ullas Karanth.
Page 47, The tigers weighing record weights in captivity were over-fed obese individuals who would not survive in the wild.

small town measerments...
540 pounds is the record weight for an african lion his bones is solid and heavy as ivory, the tiger runs the lion very close. A bengal tiger killed 2 years ago by a english officer scaled 520 pounds.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/imageserver/imageserver.pl?oid=TH19000922.2.44&area=3&width=381&color=32&ext=gif&key=

So you see, it is well documented that lions and tigers are similar in size, so similar that sometimes the tiger (Bengal or Siberian) is bigger sometimes the lion (Asiatic or African) is bigger, an thats not even including the whole accumilation of weight figures yet... I'm sure combine-ing every statistical number out there bengal or siberian tigers wont even amount up to averageing just 400 pounds as a whole sub-speices, because as most state they are the high end range of what they weigh an rarley present the whole accumilation or amount of every tiger for substance and credability of accruate figures.

The only person I have seen with substantial amount of data on weights comparing african lions with Bengal and Siberian tigers (The Boldchamp /yuku member) said that siberian tigers on average are only 5-8% hevier than african lions. That is still beyound any notice of anything, because lions still vary in that same conjunqtion, where as you can find a 600 pound lion just as easy as a 600 pound tiger, for there was a 690 pound lion weighed in the wild, an has by far more credability than any 800 pound tiger because it as plain as day stated theyweighed this lion multiple times, unilke the tiger storys which stemed from lame hunters who had always a consistancy of providing inacurate information in porportions to fictional figures such as a 18 foot long tiger which is Impossible, in lamin terms...what ever the weight the tiger has reached so can the lion. Little is offered on verifications so both cant really be taken too seriously on anything passing the 700-1,000 pound ranges, I'm sure the rare cases (in captivity) weigh as much as the presenter claims most certainly look it, but in comparions, tigers dont have any formality or implimations of having a higher margin or a significant amount to make it 100% accurate that tigers (Bengal or Siberian) weigh heavy'er than lions (Asiatic or African).

Now heres the kicker....if siberian and bengal tigers did weigh a substantial an significant amount "over lions", (shouldent all the old photos show a much much larger tiger almost every time???) Eluding and parrying away from the numbers of weights for a moment, (which we now know Bengals/Siberian's Africans are all similar in weight) but by going by what every tiger fanatic boust out, that tigers are larger than lions, tigers are bigger than lions, tigers are hevier than lions, tigers dwarf lions, african lions look small to siberian tigers...and all that jazz. Than it should be relatively easy to present that evidence right? I have examined quite a few amounts of tiger and lion photos where they are in the same shot, an by significant amounts, it shows exactly the oposite of what those same fanatics have been whine-ing about, now I have seen a hefty amount so far an I'm not even 1/1000th the amount there is out there, but it seems that through out history (no cherry picking involved) lions of both genders, seem to be on equal statuses with the biggest of the sub-speices of tigers (Bengal/Siberians) an not only that...but 'Male lions' via [a full mane] in terms mass an size show that it is nearly an almost impossible to say that visualy any tiger is larger than a full grown male lion with a full body of mane, so how can they be so accurate with weight figures when some already state that the lion can not only rival tigers but be larger on average??? Where is the iron clad data that shows these numbers.

There isint any, its just bias talk, ignorant studys, lack of data, cherry picking.

An look what I got so far, this is just a small amount of circuses, animal sanqtuarys, zoo's ect ect... that ever exsisted, that shows a lion and tiger in the same shot an exploits an exposes that not tigers, but lions... (specifically male lions)... looks, mass, size, ect... are the biggest and largest of the big cats visually.


[size=24]Busting the myth

Exploiting the notion that tigers have any size differentials and looks bigger, visually larger, and have more mass than lions.

Its quite the oposite, female lions are the same sizes as tigresses, an male lions (via= there manes) always makes them look bigger than any subspeices of tigers. I will work on getting more, but for now I'll sum up the formality of comparing tigers and lions in terms sizes.

Lions have manes, which can increase there mass from 10-35%, so a lion without a mane will be placed at 4/4ths the size comparions to a tiger of equal weight, a lion "with a mane", will have 6/4ths mass over a maneless lion, so even if you were to add on 100 pounds to a tiger at 500 pounds, it will only increase his mass around 5-10% while just adding a mane to a maneless lion, the lions mass, will increase 10-35% so in terms you will actually need the tiger to be 600 pounds to look larger than a 500 pound lion with a full mane, an going down or up the ladder it will be in the same conjunqtion, if its a 400 pound lion (via full mane) you will need atleast a 10-30% weight advantage to cater to his mass to make the tiger look as big as a lion (with a mane)....so even a 600 pound lion will look bigger than a 700 pound tiger, a 700 pound lion will look bigger than a 800 pound tiger an so on... the mane effects his mass without needing so much weight so in general a lion will always look bigger reguardless of minor weight fluctuational impliments.

So lets see, exactly where in the hell did tigers ever get the gesture that they are bigger than lions, when not only on average do lions (in general) weigh the same weights to the biggest of sub-species Bengal and Siberians, histroy shows us that "male lions", are by far visually the biggest and largest of the big cats...


Sedona out of africa wild life park.
{2013}
Female lion just as large as a male white tiger…

http://www.sarahrosemary.com/2012/07/10/sedona-trip-out-of-africa-wildlife-park/



Tom Dieck Junior

{2012}
Lions look to be same length and mass even slightly larger…



Ringling bros. & Barnum and Baileys. Circus.

{2012}
The female lions looks to be the same size as all the tiger/tigresses in the photo, even though the lion is on a higher platform, his (Mass)-- his size, is larger than every single tiger.



http://www.lilesnet.com/circus/circus2012/index.htm


The same here lions look larger 2010…


http://southerngirlramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Trainer-Kissing-Tiger.jpg

and same here


Von senioren Theater williams

{2012}
In the back ground it is evident that the lion and the tiger are on the same level’d platform, an it shows the male lion is almost 2 times the mass of the white tiger an almost a foot taller.
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/image/view/2012/11/13/21112386,16954381,lowRes,loewe.JPG.jpg
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/lichtenberg-hohenschoenhausen/tipps--veranstaltungen-rund-um-weihnachten,21100498,21111714.html



John reinkie Gw exotic animal park in wynne wood oklahoma

{2011}
Tony the tigers head compared to his body shows he is very obese, and still bone-digger the lion’s mass and size looks slightly larger…

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01939/lion-man-legs_1939168i.jpg




Frederick Edelstein

{2011}
His tiger looks way smaller than the male lions, an the tiger is even in the front, these two lions have probably one of the thickest manes so far, not only is the male lions mane in the middle, makes him look 2x bigger than the tiger but his size and mass via=+mane… makes him look bigger than the liger to the right..

http://circusarchiv2005.circusworld.de/Pinder/P2/P3/P4/P5/Frederic2.JPG

The platforms are on equal heights, yet still the lion seems taller and larger…
http://universducirque.free.fr/actualite/2012-03/im143-pinder02.jpg

Lion on far left looks to be way taller than the tiger in the back of it an almost 2x bigger and they are on equal grounds …
http://www.chapiteau.de/xmas/0809/pinder/raubtiere.jpg


Shrine Circus

{2010}
Female lion same size as tiger, while male lion dwarfs tiger in mass…

http://www.mybaycity.com/scripts/p3_v2/P3V3-0200.cfm?P3_newspaperID=NewspaperID&P3_ArticleID=4592

Monte carlos circus in beirut

{2010}
The lion and the tiger in the back ground looks to be the same distance away from the camera an you can see that the lions mass is a little bigger than the tigers…

http://thechronicleherald.ca/hcw/103435-trained-animal-acts-should-make-us-all-wild


Circque Balkanski

{2010}
Looks like the male lion skull is a bit larger in size an overall bigger in mass, due to his mane…


Harbin, northeastern China’s Heilongjiang

{2010}
Although slightly in the front of the tigress this lions mass still dwarfs the biggest of the breed the siberian tigers.

http://thewondrous.com/33-oddest-animal-couples/

Qingdao wild life zoo

{2010}
Some what hard to tell in persice accuratecy, these tigers still don’t look any speacial than any other tiger, there comparison looks to be slightly smaller than the lions.

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/travel-msg-1001.html  

Noahs Arch. Animal sanqtuary

{2009}
Even without the mane, they look similar in size an mass, so the mane will only attribute the lion in “almost always” making the lion look bigger...

(The grass might be blocking the leverage of the ground)
But heres one on equaled level ground, showing even without the mane lions seem slightly taller, busting the myth that lions are small without there manes
http://images.mnn.com/sites/default/files/noahsark.jpg


Moving zoo in Sosnovoborsk

{2009}
This lion looks to be the same mass as a very large siberian tiger even though the camera is taken more to the right side…

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/04/scenes_from_the_zoo.html


Guangxi Nanning Zoo

{2009}
These young male lions (small manes) look to be just as tall an large as some adult siberian tigers…

http://www.yun158.com/Image/20100617091431428
http://www.yun158.com/2009/01/tiger-lion-visitors-compliant-bow-to-new-year-chinese-new-year/

Pinder circus
{2008}
This male lion (including his mane) looks like a bear to this bengal tiger, dwarfing the tiger in mass…


Same platform, lion almost taller than the entire car…
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3L3gy1rVCFP4e-AjmOD0-Va5yFuPKsNrdXIwsqXhhCa8R-C17XAmCK2w

while tigers height is only a fraction above the rear view mirror
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoTtfDjzG3k8gtdIIryufC6rmIs4jWTPkZ7PGuIHJox91NzTdTUla21TlP

same shot lion is taller, and has a bigger mass, looks almost 2x bigger…
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSIbSbOZs97K9dlXrQQmRCeI4zK0W_RYC5tVJ0kCx3OWpU1SitJN1U17E



Nerger's Lion & Tiger Act
{2008}
although a bit far away the size of the male lion in the middle looks to be the most biggest figure out of all the cats.
http://www.mackayentertainment.com/images/animals/Nerger3.jpg  
http://www.mackayentertainment.com/animals.html


Circus charles Knie Alexander Lacey

{2008}
The female lions looks even larger than the tigers and the male lion looks to be the biggest figure out of all the cats even though he is not standing…


The female lion looks larger than the tigress while on par with the male on the right, even in the back ground the young male lion looks to already be taller an slightly bigger than that tiger
http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/12/617-ringling-bros-lions-tigers.jpg  

No doubt here that the lion is the bigger cat.
http://www.stimme.de/storage/pic/alfa/hlalg/763326_1_144174792_7002.jpg?version=1215193108&fCMS=u02fhi3g3g8mdg4rj9q5626uj0
http://www.schwarzwaelder-bote.de/inhalt.tiere-in-der-manege-gnadenbrot-fuer-zirkustiger.213d2179-aeb1-4579-9ba0-52f1ad1f87ce.html

The tigers feet isint even on the ground yet the lions head is still at the same level, if he’f be on the ground no doubt the lion would have been almost a foot taller, an his mass looks just about 2x bigger
http://www.flensburg-online.de/blog/2008-04/lowe-und-tiger-im-zirkus-knie.html

Henderson nevada animal reserve

{2005}
Even though farther away from the camera, the male lions mass looks to be a lot larger than these two tigers…

http://www.rexano.org/WAO.htm

The Jorndon world cricus

{2002}
Even with the camera angle catering the tigers size, the male lion still looks undoubtably larger than the tigers…

http://www.thejordanworldcircus.com/acts/close-encounters.php


Dave Hoover

{1970}
Reguardless of the distance effect the lions mass looks enourmously bigger than his tigers...

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/768/20631022337b7c49fcbb.jpg

Beatty cole bros. Circus

{1965}
Looks like all the lions are at greater masses even though the distance effect caters to the tigers...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2221/1745758216_3698d3f9b5.jpg
http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2007/10/clyde-beatty-cole-bros-1965-4.html

Dick Mcgraw

{1961}
Even with a small sized mane, these lions look larger than the tigers…


Evelyen currie animal act[/ u]

{1960}
This act shows a lion with no mane to being almost the exact same size, showing again that tigers and lions are similar in size…

http://www.sideshowworld.com/13-TGOD/2009/tgod-The-Lady.html

Alex Kerr[/ u]

{1957}
Looks to be his lion is taller an larger than his tiger which both are at the same size platform…


Alfred courts mixed animal act[/ u]

{1947}
Looks to be alfreds lions are the same size as his tigers, with some lions looking slightly bigger than the tigers…

http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/herman-weedon-mixe-group-1024x744.jpg


Terell Jacobs mixed animal act.

{1940}
All his lions with no manes looks the same size as his tigers while his male lions with manes, mass an size looks almost 2x bigger…

http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=21516

again here all Terells lions lions look to be equal or of greater size than his tigers and mass…



Clyde beatty

{1935}
Clydes lions looks to be equal in size an some to be even larger than his tigers…

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dkHse9X6RZs/R3Y8zRL2WKI/AAAAAAAAD5E/q5uNAs3Ersw/s1600/CLYDE.jpg
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr162/marjwh/ClydeBeattyFleetondoor.jpg

Rudolf kludsky

{1925}
All of his lions looks to be equal in size an some to be even larger than his tigers…


Ringling bros. Circus.

{1908}
Young male lion taller than tiger, size an mass almost the same with the lion slightly bigger.


http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=38034


Herman weedon

{1904}
Female lions bigger than tiger…



Carl hagenbecks zoo.

{1903}
Here the lion is taller an larger than tiger…
http://books.google.com/books?id=V0JSVvpZvYYC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA187&dq=Isaac+A.+Van+Amburgh+lion+tiger++fight&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Again here different lions and tigers showing young lions are larger than his tigers



London hippo drone[/ u]

{1901}
Lions look to have bigger heads an overall larger mass because of his mane…



Richard swadae[/ u]

{1900}

http://www.emunch.no:8080/cocoon/emunch/ENGART_emunch_guleng_eng.xhtml

Where the hell are all these monstrous tigers I keep hearing about? Huh! Thats a transeding leap of 10 decades worth of lions and tigers in over 25 different zoo's, sanqtuarys and circuses, an not one showed a tiger significantly bigger than a male lion, in fact most of the male lions dwarfed those tigers just about 2x fold, and none had a superb battle mane like the Barbary lion, at best the biggest looked on par with a persian lions mane, which is still inferior in size to the Barbary's mane, an whats funny is the biggest tigers who are captive raised an should have been bigger by higher food intake then there wild counter parts, should have still given them a bigger visual status being a little longer than a lion, yet still all the lions look by far much larger than any tiger...and we are only getting started. What is the pinicle of this debate, can now even be gestured that a male lion with a full body of mane from head to belly can look larger than even a liger who is on average 200-400 pounds hevier than both lion and tiger an can reach up to 1,600 pounds, an with visual proof (as shown) a full battle maned lion can look bigger than a liger so tigers arnt even on the same scale anymore in mass comparisons.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2013 at 02:28
Siberian tiger is bigger and stronger than any other tiger or lion. He dominates everything else, even bears!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2013 at 05:02
Originally posted by TITAN_

Siberian tiger is bigger and stronger than any other tiger or lion. He dominates everything else, even bears!


I disagree, certainly the data shows that Siberian tigers weigh on average the same weights as african lions (which I just provided), you cant just purposely find a needle in a hay stack and claim thats the standard, in other words you cant make a claim that chinese men are taller than russians by comparing Yao ming to the average russian, and then say chinese on average are taller than russians...no. The fact is the average Russian is taller than the average China man.

The same way siberian tiger data shows to be uncovering to be, getting smaller and smaller as the credability is getting higher and higher, while lions could just as well turn the tables and change what was popular belife, people accustomed to repeating information that has rooted to emit faulty substance and credability without doing there own assesment. You do know we have scales now days that are alot more accurate than olden day testimonials right? I just provided most people who actually are in the field of such studys claim the old records are un-reliable since modern day weighing scales are showing completely different numbers to what so call hunters have given, and they lean more so on estimates, which in no way can be credaitable no matter how many tigers and lions you seen in the flesh.

As for the heavy end, its one of the easyest things to fore-see now, if you look at why Siberian tigers can get "slightly hevier" around only 5% hevier than african lions (Only in the wild), "Food consumption". Being most scientist and zoologist have stated they are almost Anatomically the same cat, when they do autopsy's and strip the flesh from lions and tigers, by a simple glance most top experts cant tell a lion from a tiger...but as for food consumption, the lion consumes less because he is the only social cat in the wild, period.

Its simple math really, if a tiger kills a 1,000 pound buffalo he will then be able to consume more of that buffalo than a lion killing a 1,000 pound buffalo, because the tiger is solitary, so he will digest atleast 80% 8/10ths if he pro-longs the buffalo for a week or longer, while a lion being in a pride, will have to split the bufalo on average of 10-20 other lions, so he will only digest 2/10ths of the buffalo on average before the whole pride consumes it in less than a day or two.

Less consumption would mean less weight amoungs occaision's, thats why lion weights are amoung the most randomest scales to calculate or determine. While that pattern can actually be broken...via captive lions. In captivity zoo's, circses and sanqtuarys feed lions a meal consistant of a solitary animal, being... having a consistant diet, which shows that lions can actually reach what ever weights the siberian tiger can...


454.5 kg=1,000 pound african lion
http://www.semissourian.com/story/131162.html
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CJ8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EdYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3389,5622568&dq=1000+pound+african+lion&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2C000+pound+african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N

408kg=900 pound lion named Ali owned by Charle’s mason of king’sbridge
http://www.impeyan.net/default.asp?iId=KMFIH

Two…950-1,000 pound lions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmUtjFBx6eM

- 900 pound lion
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19630112&id=l9YeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=n2UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4456,2398849

800 pound lion named ponto fight’s off 2 tiger’s 1959 Rningling brothers


826 pound lion named simba
[url">http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af291/KingOfEurope/45yedsdy.jpgt=1306200659


http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2011/111102/changeofpace.html[/URL]

810 pound lion attack’s tarzan 1967, in Cleveland, OH; Tarzan was attacked in the ring by an 800-pound lion.
Zerbini and his 800 pound lions:

http://www.tzproductions.com/index.php/history

2… 800 pound lion’s 1 named Prince an 1 named clarence

http://mfinley.com/tumor/bt-bwana-mike.htm

806 pound lion named Rutledge

http://adambarefoot.deviantart.com/art/Rutledge-World-s-Largest-Lion-148826480

908 pound lion owned by Peter jackson
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg139/scaled.php?server=139&filename=900lblionestimatedoz7.jpg&res=landing

800 pound lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=r_itw5QtTkUC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=800+pound+lion+africa&source=bl&ots=L7PO7yWlAS&sig=Da81WuQXgd9ZRE6mRQtvA6qaGy8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MNoNUNOJGuKC2wWUuYC4AQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA

800 pound lion in circus
Trump: The Art Of The Deal
But Irving was very much like a lion tamer. You've seen these guys, maybe I50 pounds, who walk blithely into a cage where there's a magnificent 800~pound lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ye6e_VxM00kC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=800+pound++lion&source=bl&ots=6XuRpqILHh&sig=FPFItABXapR4OZWM76XTRCImwz0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mHwGUICmL-Pg2gWQxMXTBQ&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCQ

800 pound lion named woody

http://books.google.com/books?id=9MIDKlXj60AC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=800+pound++lion&source=bl&ots=6qj9mAg4nV&sig=oYDzO5qhhaADM55op3qdUPe0FLc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VX0GUJC2Leqi2gXO4MmPBQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK

CBS News investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian speaks about the debate and what it was like doing an interview within feet of a 900-pound lion.

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x364597531/Morning-Jolt-Haunted-home-for-seniors

800+ pound lion
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/wildkingdom/last-lions-india/asiatic-vs-african/asiatic-vs-african.html

800 pound lion named leo 1932

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=apghAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SZoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1205,5537289&dq=800+pound+lion&hl=en">http://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/lionunleashedinwbzstudio.jpg?w=300
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=apghAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SZoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1205,5537289&dq=800+pound+lion&hl=en


800 pound lion Killed With One Shot .Nero Slain As It Devoured Cow In...
Daily Star - Oct 2, 1908
Nero was five years old, weighed 800 pounds and was valued at 1000 He recently . was imported from Africa, and was considered a perfect specimen.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MMVUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uI8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6318,5099819&dq=african+800+pound+lions&hl=en

Two 800-900 pound lions escaped from the Ringling Bros. and Bar- num & Bailey Circus Saturday los Angeles Times - Jun 17, 1973
Logan and his 800 and 900 pound fighting lions:


http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/692669012.html?dids=692669012:692669012&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Jun+17%2C+1973&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=1+of+2+Circus+Lions+Killed+After+Escape&pqatl=google

And I mind you the word bigger is a loose term, (as you claimed) now with a little more light on the capacitys of lions weights shown above being fed like a tiger (Only for him self type diets), I think that there actually is no weight advantage what so ever. If a tiger had to split his food omni-directional with 10-20 other tigers (like the lion has too) I'm quite sure he wont sustain such weights and as for the word bigger, again bigger and larger are loose terms, I just provided the weights that show lions can rival siberain tigers but as for implimenting the word bigger and larger, the tiger can lay no claim what so ever in terms Mass, from average weights to maximum weights the lion will always visually look "larger" than a siberian tiger.

Besides, any big cat including african lions and siberian tigers, passing 700 pounds is a rarity and not the normal occurance, and wouldent fit there physiology capacity to perform at there peak, unless you'd think a 1,000 pound human can beat up a 300 pound fit prime human because he has a 700 pound weight advantage. lol
No, Idealy both are at best at around 500-650 that would be the most extreme best of the best evolution an natural selection of the toughest of the giants lions or tigers can produce, since both have reached 700 pounds in the wild, I'd say 650 would be in a conjunqtion of a fair assesment/match-up if you wanna bring in the heavy hitters. So theres really no weight advantage for tigers, if you purposely want to bring in a 800 and up tigers, then why not a 800 pound lion as well? Certainly lions can get larger than that, but I'd still favor a 650 pound lion vs a obese non-mobile 1,000 pound lion the same with tigers...a 650 pound maniac supreme tiger should make short work of his sumo counter part, with more game in all of its meaning.

And as for stronger, I'm inclined to say lions are the stronger of the two where it counts, the frontal strikeing points, the frontal area, not the back jumping attributes, this isint a pulling match or a running match... its more of a swatting match, grappling, and strikeing match where the lion is stronger and more adpated to pro-long and be superior in.


Edit: Hey I can edit now? Awesome!



Edited by Prime - 03-Apr-2013 at 07:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2013 at 20:28

Old and very interesting topic.Lion is a symbol of strength, courage and nobilty and adopted by strong and powerful.And it is always the strong and powerful who writes the  history.Most of the painting and text posted above is recorded and painted by the  british who ruled most of the world  and lion as their symbol.So it is meaning less to consider them as proof of Lions superiority over tiger from their face value.

I think the question that need to be adressed here  is about their adaptabillity to the natural habitat and interaction with each  other as species.What happens if theese two species meet in the wild, which one  will survive.And they have met .. in India.
Lion were there for time unknown and tiger was a late comer.At the begining of last century there were tigers every where in India.What happens to the Lions.
 
It is hard to believe that Lion has been hunted down heavily and exterminated in the process when tiger is much more handsomer animal as trophy.Did tiger kill the Lion in India?


Edited by huntergill - 03-Apr-2013 at 21:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2013 at 00:18
Originally posted by huntergill

Old and very interesting topic.Lion is a symbol of strength, courage and nobilty and adopted by strong and powerful.And it is always the strong and powerful who writes the  history.Most of the painting and text posted above is recorded and painted by the  british who ruled most of the world  and lion as their symbol.So it is meaning less to consider them as proof of Lions superiority over tiger from their face value.


I think the question that need to be adressed here  is about their adaptabillity to the natural habitat and interaction with each  other as species.What happens if theese two species meet in the wild, which one  will survive.And they have met .. in India.

Lion were there for time unknown and tiger was a late comer.At the begining of last century there were tigers every where in India.What happens to the Lions.

 

It is hard to believe that Lion has been hunted down heavily and exterminated in the process when tiger is much more handsomer animal as trophy.Did tiger kill the Lion in India?


(Thanks again Dragon, for taking my other jaka-laka post down/Hope this one comes out okay ^_^)


Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
Posted: Today at 20:28 By huntergill
Old and very interesting topic.Lion is a symbol of strength, courage and nobilty and adopted by strong and powerful.And it is always the strong and powerful who writes the  history.Most of the painting and text posted above is recorded and painted by the  british who ruled most of the world  and lion as their symbol.So it is meaning less to consider them as proof of Lions superiority over tiger from their face value.
I think the question that need to be adressed here  is about their adaptabillity to the natural habitat and interaction with each  other as species.What happens if theese two species meet in the wild, which one  will survive.And they have met .. in India.
Lion were there for time unknown and tiger was a late comer.At the begining of last century there were tigers every where in India.What happens to the Lions.
 
It is hard to believe that Lion has been hunted down heavily and exterminated in the process when tiger is much more handsomer animal as trophy.Did tiger kill the Lion in India?



Howdy,

Well everyone is entitled to there own opinion especially being able to critisize the lattar of which you favor, but to use the words meaning-less at the same time having little truth to your own opinion...you stated Majority of them were (Specifically) British...I have put together this archive my self and know for a fact...

1.)
Majority of them were not British (Empire), they consist of Germans from the Holy Roman Empire, French-men from France which the british never took over France so they are non-affiliated, also Italian, Latin, Greek, Roman, and Indian artist to poets are majority of what I presented are about...more over-weighing any British/United Kingdom-England poets and artist who as plain as day gave there reasons why they chose the lion over the tiger, its because the tiger was more reluctant to engage and meet the lion in open combat than vice versa...Its stated in countless of English books, and poets and scriptures of there past history, which I showed in detail, so I dont know how you could take it in any other way, from what it is. (No offence) But why is everything stated in the books of past from the 18th all the way down to the 12th century which has a consistancy of lions either defeating tigers or just the tigers had submited more often (not every time) but more constant then lions would?

Please explain to me in thourough detail why are they meaning-less, when we have modern documentaions of lions proving every centurys records to hold merits of being true. As You were reffereing to my catagorie draft of the "Continent of Europe"which some what showed all the poets mention-ing occaisions of not really the word "Dominating" but has proven in there choosing of words to be superior in combat, and its comparisons when reading there quotas can be photo or video identical with what was stated in the past records to having a consistantcy and replication of what seems to be the same thing in comparing then and now.
I will ask you in your own words to explain to me how the Poets of Englands writings dont match in clean details, just these occaisions here...


Lioness submits male tiger


Lioness submits male tiger


Lions have stronger strikes


Male lion beats up tiger and tiger runs away


Female lion beats up tiger and tiger submits


lion has alot of agression while tiger nervous an submissive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCASVaWqpBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkRwN-3CeMg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzizwdt5MLw


(I consider the old documents in comparisions to these ^^^ showing there is quite the accuratecy enough to call them reliable, the details as they say fit the bill, theres no way there can be that much detail and have the same consistancy in the videos to be as you said meaning-less)


Please... just out of curiosty, could I have your honest opinion why I shouldent take them into consideration when majority (of the hundreds) of poets, (Hundreds of) artifact/painting has the exact same thing portrayed in news-paper articles and most importantly "Videos", why would you immideatly dis-reguard substantial and creditable information with out having some counter weight or base that is in its same quality and quanity?

2.)
Not only European nationality's and cultures have the lion surpassing the tiger in ther past history, (As you are gesture-ing/only eEuropeans-British) they have them basically in every other culture that had "Both" lions and tigers, having the lion as the usual victor, the lion as the superior, and when I mean "Majority" I dont mean just a few accumilations worth that would swing sides... meaning a close quanity of half favors the lion and half favors the tiger, but actually a substantial amount of historical significance (On hand/Not hear say or rumors) but a abundentcy of all types of records that proves that the lion was the usual victor...


The continent of Asia

Chinese Dynastys an Empires

~(Indidegous to the Asian tiger, Afghanistan sent lions to Chinese emperors as gifts in order to get the right to trade with Silk Road merchants. *(205 B.C. to 220 A.D in China) and during the Tang Dynasty (716-907 A.D.)
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/9Arts10159.html

^ So in terms, lions were in china for about 2,000 years. An since they were only imported an not indigedous, most likely there conflicts were accidental in captivity or pitted for chinese royal emperors an such.

After importing lions, the chinese have incorperated lions in there legends an ranked his courage unserpassed. A Lion fighting a Nian who the Tiger couldent.
http://www.sevenstarmantis.co.uk/7.html

A modern account: Showing that the historical artifacts below, still holds up to its merits showing that it is not only artistical but factual….

{The 20th Century}


{2011 China}


Two teen lions killed a adult male Bengal tiger in an enclosure.

One of the worker’s were on break, an went down the road to a store taking the key’s to the gate an car they usually break up minor scruffle’s with, , when two… 1.5 year old boy cub’s chased around an harrased a adult male bengal tiger, until he colapsed from exaustion,
http://i.imgur.com/rUyZN.jpg
He tried despertaly to protect himself,…
http://i.imgur.com/8zr8Q.jpg
but the two 1.5 year old brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with hurendous moan’s in agony, after on looker’s shouted for the lion’s to stop shortly after one got a hold of his throat an took his life…
http://i.imgur.com/sApCb.jpg
~.(Video)- Youtube-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk


{2008}

South Korea Jeonju zoo

A lion is kept in a cage at Jeonju Zoo, North Jeolla Province, Wednesday, after attacking and killing a tiger in the zoo. The body of the dead tiger was taken to a veterinary hospital in the zoo. / Yonhap

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36355.html

{2006 India and china}
To the Indians and chinese the lions are the King of the beast not tigers
http://books.google.com/books?id=o5eTQnIUF88C&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=lion+tiger+greece+fight&source=bl&ots=ZDLb53pWWs&sig=wsLpq5pgJ_I0MRW0Uv7cMBqBA1k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnEXUN_UKsSKrAHT-IDoCw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA<br>

{2005}

The lion in ancient india strips the title of the tiger in art an mythology


http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA36&dq=the+lion+outstrips+the+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bVdaUfiiKsTviQLHp4DYDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{2004}

[China]

A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east Chinas Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied the cool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes." *
~Peoples Daily Online

[/url]http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200407/20/eng20040720_150169.html[/url]

{2002 India}
Cultures and customs of india

By Carol Henderson Garcia, Carol E. Henderso
The lion is the King of the beast of Inidan culture…
http://books.google.com/books?id=CaRVePXX6vEC&pg=PA74&dq=India+asiatic+lion+king+of+the+beast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EYuPUNLiL4PUiwKUsYHoDw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg

{The 19th Century}

{1999 India}

Two young lionesses kill adult white tigress
One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

{1997 China}
My mother taught me the elephant will defeat the lion, the lion defeat the tiger . . . the cat defeat the mouse, the rat.
Atlanta Journal-Constitution - Jun 28, 1997
[/url]http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AT&p_theme=at&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EADA32AE924DB1B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM[/url]
6th colome down
[/url]http://www.google.com/search?q=china+lion+kills+tiger+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N[/url]


{1993 India}
Lions have ruled India for 2,000 years
The lion takes over…only in 1972 was the tiger declared Indias national animal at last replacing the lion that was ruled so meaninglessly for more than 2,000 years.
~Forster and Further: The Tradition of Anglo-Indian Fiction
By Sujit Mukherjee
[/url]http://books.google.com/books?id=xYi3HztW19YC&pg=PA202&dq=tiger+kailash+sankhala+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqCRUJrREYbmiwLq2oDQDQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ[/url]

{19©Japan}


{1978}
Kailash sankhala

Mentions a crazed prince that had a fight with a lion an tiger an the lion killed the tiger



{19©Japan}


{1949 and another published in 1951 India}
Indian press-
Zoo tiger surrcumbs presented to the Corpo ration zoo by Jamnagar State In 1949 died on Monday of Injuries sustained in a deadly combat with Leo
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_QNFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z7cMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3206,4386439&dq=zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=Zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


{19© Japan}
Made by: Mr. Watanabe

http://www.signature-antiquite.com/fighting-lion-tiger-meiji-bronze.htm

{1940}
Caviar and Cabbage Melvin B. Tolson .

Tolson was the professor, poet and writer portrayed by Denzel Washington in
The Great Debaters , which is based on a true story from 1935 America.

Who stated:

“Tigers kill, tigers die, even on the birthday of Christ the King. But lions, fighting in solidarity together, are the King of Beasts. In the end, the lion rules the jungle.
http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html

3 Asiatic lions vs 3 bengal tigers

All lions won each occaision 1 tiger died, lion # 2 mauled the big male tiger…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM

{19(C).Japan}


{1926}
Bhim Singh:
A romance of Mughal times
A lion is a more formidable foe than a tiger, who, after all, is a cowardly beast. Macmillan, 1926 - 194 pages
http://books.google.com/books?id=DNtiOF9nBwkC&q=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&dq=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wm-QULW-OsjdigKQnIHwBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBTgo

{1923 India}
Jam sahib in india has wittnessed 4 fights


having all lion defeat tiger’s published in 1923 in his book here…
Also in his summary, when he exploited keseri singh he point’s them out again here…


{19©Japan}


{19©India }


{The 18th Century}

{1896 India}
Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a adult male tiger

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25

{1890 China}
Listen to its quota=
Delicately Carving of Chinese ivory box, depicting tigers and charging lions in very high relief, lid decorated with tiger finial, 1890 China.
[ur]http://www.coinsandantiquesgallery.com/items/1171860/item1171860store.html[/url]

Notice ^ how the cover shows the lion as the bigger Icon, also known in art as portraying the usual victor.
The artifact merits of being factual can be proven true simply by looking at there social paring still evident today…
Lioness submits an chases tiger out of her area…


{1886 India}

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA106&dq=two+lions+and+a+tiger+said+louis+holding+up+a+picture&ei=YSNaUfmTBaHJiwKel4CQCg&id=8YgAAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

{1862 Japan}

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tongzhi-period-1862-1874-chinese-vase-287767094

Lions and tigers stayed the same for almost 2,000 years, they dident aquire anything new in terms fighting assests, so analyzing the historical artifacts whos that it is consistant that lions have always been dominating tigers, with proof of videos even today shows the same thing…
Male lion calls out tiger and tiger constantly flees…




{1854 India}
The Anvár-i Suhailí
Lion kills several tigers..When the tiger was seized by the lions claw, Death
[/url]http://books.google.com/books?id=QBi2OLju39gC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=lion+tiger+fight+suited+region&source=bl&ots=gzgy8hlxIc&sig=V2CHvhgzn4klwtkTgh1S2TNkzkg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vzNIUJL_CpDtiQLn_YDIBg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ[/url]

{18©Japan}
*


{1851 India}
1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung”
A lion killed a tiger in the wild witnessed by local native’s of India an German Zoologist’s.
~(German new’s atricle)
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2388/Velar-Male-Lion-vs-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-valauble-rare-account-


{1834 India}
Diary of a literature lion defeat’s tiger.









{1833 India}
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ei=lZCPULy4FqnYigKLuoGoBQ&id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

{18©Japan}


{18©Japan}


{1825 India}
The lion not the tiger is the unbdisputed King of the forest
http://books.google.com/books?id=8icYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=lions+undisputed+fighter+tiger&source=bl&ots=Ay1UmC74cw&sig=TrqQL7rHRl7AXgskSoPbAmW9lHA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_5QxUOrNK8r2iwK2-ICwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{18©Japan}


{18©Japan}


Japan
Made By: Mr. Corrosion


Well cast as a battle between a lion and a tiger, the latter roaring in protest from the assault of the lion which towers above, its two front legs standing on the supine body of the tiger, each of the animals expertly rendered with great attention to realistic details, the underside with the artist's signature in cursive script (corrosion).
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15409/lot/4042/

{The 17th-18th Century}
Japan or china








{Inida}




{Japan}


{Japan}


{China}


{The 17th Century}



{The 16th Century}


{The 15th Century}

The lion is the King of the beast in india a name rarely given to the tiger


As for your question, to what seems more like a blant mockery of hinting the tiger ruled india or killed off the lion...I actually have a substantial amount of information..."well maybe the basics"...on the asiatic lions status in india if you'd like to read up on there locations to idlelize-ing the lion on a longer term and on a higher superior of the two. For I feel and suspect with that type of post you made you know little to absolutely nothing of the Asiatic lions nor the Bengal tigers past history of right here an now type if I'd to ask you something about there history, not just fast googling Wikipedia type sites that wouldent be accepted in any formal collage paper by any Proffesor at any level from schaller to extrodinaire.

But I am always intrested to hearing something new that I might not know of and in which I can learn new my self. So I would like to know your further analysis...of why you chose the tiger over the lion in terms fighting and defeating each other?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2013 at 00:40
lol I pretty much just made the same mistakes, aw wells.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2013 at 20:54
A domesticated wild animal, may it be tiger ,lion is only a unnatural animal...and what ever is unnatural is untrustworthy. They live and die and act not of their choosing.Hence I will not comment on the postings that shows these animals in circuses, menageries or zoos.

China doesn't have lions and Japan neither one of these animals, so i will also ignore these  comparison,drawings ,sculptures and figurines from these contries  as a work of imaginative human mind having no knowledge of tiger and lion behavior towards each other in natural habitat.

Theese two animals are about the same size and strength and it is hard to say which animal will win in natural state . probably they will avoid each other.which species will survive in the long run fighting for their existence is also hard to say.

A tiger is a shy animal of thick deep jungle.It will not come out of its cage to fight in a pit in front of so many onlookers( if it is a wild animal) even if you prod it with sticks.To assume it is afraid of its adversary will not be a true statement. Problematic tigers caught from the wild makes poor displays in zoos as they will hide in their enclosure, never showing themselves during day hours.

Tiger was the least studied animal of the two, direct observation nearly impossible in the field. With the coming of modern technology and through telemetric studies the scientist are unfolding the secrets.Bengal tigers living in the snow in Bhutan... speaks volume of the adaptability of tiger.

Crazed prince sankhala referring to is Gaekwar of BARODA.All rajas and maharajas indulge in this sport of fighting animals in the pit.Heavy bets are placed on favorite animal and insiders of the Baroda court have talked about the heavy losses Gaekwar suffered by backing up wrong animal.Baroda had adopted Lion as a state insignia.He was partial to Lion.

jam sahib of nawanagar and his family was the caretaker of Gir at one point.

I don't know what to say about Kailash Sankhala.He has been to Africa multiple times and had studied wild life there before writing the book you give the reference about lion having an egde over tiger.He doesn't believe Lion and leopard to be a member of big five.He replaced them with giraffe and hippo.(page 80-81 same book)

Why i think tiger will be a fair contender if not better is their way of living.The lion is all play,members living together and benefiting from each other. Tiger is all bussiness.A wounded tiger is a dead tiger.Hence very efficient in his work.
Tiger prey on Gaur and Bubalus Arna regularly, adults and sub adults.Pair of tigers is known to kill bull tusker and prey on isolated cows.A tiger clears a 30 ft nullah in a single bound and jump up a 17 feet cemented wall with no foot holds.I have seen that wall.
 
Do you think that a Lion ,not pride is capable of this feat.How often you have heard a single lion preying on buffallo bulls and dispatching them single hand.Arna stand six to six and a half feet at shoulder with the body length of ten feet or more.Horn spans anywhere from nine to twelve feet.Gaur stand six feet tall and weighs 3000 lbs.   

Looking at the circus pictures ...why it is always the tiger  leaping from the ring of fire.Wink


Edited by huntergill - 04-Apr-2013 at 21:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2013 at 04:16


House it going,

I'll just dive right into it and adress some of your opinions and stand points.


A domesticated wild animal, may it be tiger ,lion is only a unnatural animal...and what ever is unnatural is untrustworthy. They live and die and act not of their choosing.Hence I will not comment on the postings that shows these animals in circuses, menageries or zoos.
China doesn't have lions and Japan neither one of these animals, so i will also ignore these comparison,drawings ,sculptures and figurines from these contries as a work of imaginative human mind having no knowledge of tiger and lion behavior towards each other in natural habitat.


Please define un-natrual? A domesticated animal, will still be a animal...the only things that are different is they will lose there sense of Direction, and lose there instinct to judge upoun fear and survival, which both plays hand in hand for a wild lion or wild tiger, it will in no way or form, make them a different creature, change there physiiology, change there attributes/anatomy, change there over-all capabilitys of what they are...in some sense, they will be limited to what they can do only mentally.

For if you will not comment on zoo's circuses and sanqtuarys, doesnt hender any formality or factual impliment to me, a captive lion is still capable of fighting a wild tiger to an extent, (It already happened) a lion named george fought "2 wild tigers in fact"....an even gamed the male, in the Tower of london as I alrady showed. So that convinces me that captive animals can be just as game as a wild one, as I will gesture to an extent...I cant just close my eyes all of a sudden an not look at every creves, every out-come, every loop whole just to more pass a slightly more creditable opinion...remember, no matter what we, as me you or anyone opinionates will only be a opinion, it is up to us to examine the substance and credability of what we choose to say or present.

Its amazing how (not adressing you)...how people, most people actually can make claims that... oh this country said this animal always won, or they favor this animal, there books, there art, there storys all point the superiorty of this animal, ( and show nothing but one or two secoundary sites) but as soon as the counter-bater brings in the hard evidence absolutely nothing of the sort, nothing related or affiliated to the subject and topic it self can be taken into consideration???...as for your china and japan remark, I actually find it quite intresting in conjunqtion to your gesture...how is it that in the eras before the 18th century when there was no television, no internet, no vast amounts of news-paper archives, were these people you claimed never saw a lion, can diplect counter-reality in there sculptures, photo-realistic detail in there paintings and art, and go into detail in there past historical writings of exactly what we see in videos of today and be so akin, so replicated, so well a-like...basically the same and not only that, have a consistantcy of it...I would really like to know your point of view in dispute-ing...actually you cant dispute it, that would be impossible, I mean your opinion in how you came to say they were imaginative... as you said non-natrual habitat?


Theese two animals are about the same size and strength and it is hard to say which animal will win in natural state . probably they will avoid each other.which species will survive in the long run fighting for their existence is also hard to say.
A tiger is a shy animal of thick deep jungle.It will not come out of its cage to fight in a pit in front of so many onlookers( if it is a wild animal) even if you prod it with sticks.To assume it is afraid of its adversary will not be a true statement. Problematic tigers caught from the wild makes poor displays in zoos as they will hide in their enclosure, never showing themselves during day hours.


I agree that they are very similar in size, attribtes and temperment too, and it will be hard to tell who would come off the usual winner, almost like a black man vs a white man, theres no way in telling if theres a superior fighter in terms the whole race its self, sometimes a white man will win, sometimes a black man will win, its almost the same thing like a tiger vs a lion. But to simplify the notion of who would win in territorial bouts, I really cannot see how in any way on a logical term you can suggest its a toss up on natrual terms, which is your entire arguement so far right? By "natures standards", lions live in prides and are deem'd social animals, tigers solitary (lives indipdendently/Alone) even smaller animals in groups would force out a tiger from there territory, via wolves, hyena, wild dogs, simply because they can range from 10-30, as the lion can as well...so a natrual setting, I am afraid you have lost all your parrying away from the debate it self, because I already posted a few encounters in india, and most suggested it was a 2 on 1 or pride against the tiger, only vey few had caught glimpse of wild fights that revolved around 1 on 1's and 3 was of stalemates after a scruffle no greater than something like everland videos...both choosing to leave the battle having both submitting minorly wounded, and one where a lion killed a wild tiger in Velar....did you not read anything I posted, or did you just look at the photos of art, because you seem to be parrying away into wild encounters and I have gaven my side, can you do the same?

Here I'll High-light the occaision for you...

31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”)

A drama at the Ganges.

I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”

“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”

We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.

Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.

“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”

“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”

“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”

“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!

The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.

With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.

The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.

The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.

He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.

http://books.google.de/books?id=ghtEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=l%C3%B6we+tiger+kampf&hl=de&ei=aSZETeLmFYTAswbU6IHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=l%C3%B6we%20tiger%20kampf&f=false-

You can use Google translate if you want to check its authinticty or credability.


Tiger was the least studied animal of the two, direct observation nearly impossible in the field. With the coming of modern technology and through telemetric studies the scientist are unfolding the secrets.Bengal tigers living in the snow in Bhutan... speaks volume of the adaptability of tiger.
Crazed prince sankhala referring to is Gaekwar of BARODA.All rajas and maharajas indulge in this sport of fighting animals in the pit.Heavy bets are placed on favorite animal and insiders of the Baroda court have talked about the heavy losses Gaekwar suffered by backing up wrong animal.Baroda had adopted Lion as a state insignia.He was partial to Lion.
jam sahib of nawanagar and his family was the caretaker of Gir at one point.


As for the baroda's account ( for I have read its whole abstract), I am a big fan of that story, I enjoyed its detail that went into write-ing it as such as this one above about Velar but a pit fight not wild as you are promoting, I did enphinsize that there will never be a clear cut winner, both have felled the other, sometimes both perish in mainly pit-fights from what I have read, most emit either little detail or hints of sabotaging the occaision, so at this point since both have there shares of winning via pit fights, we will now have to find who won more, and that would mean we will have tally up the occaisions and anaylze its credability, re-guardless if it is sketchy, shady or dosent emit the whole truth, we must compare every account, unless it can be proven with quality and quainty of some counter debate of dispueting it entirely, which I only know a few of those have occured as well, most I have seen are pretty legit, and I only provide the ones that do have credability or substance.

And for Kailash, most modern day big cat experts/zoologist or just keepers dont count Pumas, Cheetahs, and leopards as a Big cat, of course not in general, but just the implimation of the Big cats are more revolving around tigers, lions and jaguars those who can achive 350 pounds of weight.

For Jam sahib, I would gesture it could be compared to Kersi singh's statement, where he arranged 3 duels himself and all tigers won, but he has in his book (a non-consistancy of the fight), he states on articles it was a fight and the lion got the worst of it, but then in his book/quoted he just mentions the tiger only layed one or 2 smacks and the lion retired, which then his quota dosent match a fight in general, a lion rushing a tiger, and that tiger hitting the lion just twice isint a fight in my opinion, it just showed what all the experts I already posted on the first page have been state-ing, that the lion is the ususal agressor and will often attack the tiger, while the tiger tries to avoid the fight while merely defending himself by throwing wind-mill lashes, to keep the lion away...it is undenial-able the amount of experts to owners to eye-witnesses to even videos who have stated that,( which I provided on the first page) and keep keep showing different ones that protains to each catagorie of what I gesture (which helps for credability)
Clyde states tigers often miss more than lions, and tigers tire faster..


Clyde even stating that tigers are afraid of lions...
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg

in which the counter side can lay only rare occaisions of the tiger doing the same to a lion, and it is even more rare for it to happen on a male lion as I stated on my previous post tigers target female lions more because the male lion looks (via mane) as if its a much larger tiger/lion/opponent. But back to Jam sahib...we dont really know what he ment by Jam saying the lions won all 4, it could be a fight like Kersi singhs, or the lions could have killed the tigers, for Kersi singh mentions the lions survived, Jam did not say, so I'll leave it at a 50/50 Survived/Died...because most likely the lion will keep pushing the fight if it is indeed serious...after all that is there armermada to fight.


Why i think tiger will be a fair contender if not better is their way of living. The lion is all play,members living together and benefiting from each other. Tiger is all bussiness.A wounded tiger is a dead tiger.Hence very efficient in his work.
Tiger prey on Gaur and Bubalus Arna regularly, adults and sub adults.Pair of tigers is known to kill bull tusker and prey on isolated cows.A tiger clears a 30 ft nullah in a single bound and jump up a 17 feet cemented wall with no foot holds.I have seen that wall.

Do you think that a Lion ,not pride is capable of this feat.How often you have heard a single lion preying on buffallo bulls and dispatching them single hand.Arna stand six to six and a half feet at shoulder with the body length of ten feet or more.Horn spans anywhere from nine to twelve feet.Gaur stand six feet tall and weighs 3000 lbs.   
Looking at the circus pictures ...why it is always the tiger leaping from the ring of fire.


I really dont know how you find means to approuch with non-related content, and I really dont know how to comment back in fashion of taking you serious or just trying to phantom what is your motive or comparisons are trying to impliment or in terms emit.

First of all...

1.) It would be rare for either lion or tiger to take down a full grown bull of any sub-species weather any in catagorie of large bovines such as Guar, Buffalo, Catte, Bull...those are actually a rarity...most die in concequence of the bull goring the tiger or lion if the bull is in its prime stages...in terms one on one with a massive bovine, they are usually taken by ambush, and or weak sick or old is the general rule. If comparing who is more succsesful at it, it will point to the tiger, for his habbitat allows for maximum ambush in volume and state...while a lion is more who would be more the likely to averagly kill a buffalo on equal terms no ambush then... it would be the lion whos more succsesful...the lion is more durable, just as fast in dexterity and more powerful of the two in terms strike-ing.

2. If you are trying to compare who has the better feats, I did post a variety of animals the lion has brought down on the last page, majority of them were single handedly, up to coalitions an such, but in the over all verdict, lions face much more dangerous animals in size and quanity and I must mention again most are suspect for a open challange, not ambush which would depend on the occaision. Other than bears, everything the lion faces is much larger, bears can surcummb to anything the lion faces as well for africa holds things 10-20x the size weight and mass of the worlds biggest of bears, for comparing (I)=Indian animals with (A) African ones them...


Tigers----Lions
Wolves < Hyenas - Hyenas much larger, in bigger clans, and more powerful of the two.

(I) Elephant <(A) Elephant - African elephants are much larger than Indian ones, in bigger herds, over-all more formidable than the indian sub-speices.

Buffalo < Guar - Guars are only slightly bigger and are in small groups, Buffalos are more agressive and are in large herds up to 100-1,000 at a time.

(I) Crocs < (A) Crocs - About the same, but rivers have crocs in India as mostly wide stretches, so they will hardly ever be in groups, while africa has very little water so they will be in larger quanitys when grouping up.

(I) Rhinos < (A) Rhinos - The same as elephants of africa much bigger and more agresive, than there indian counter parts... catering with much bigger herds.

(I) Hippos < (A) Hippos - The same as elephants and Rhinos of africa much bigger and more agresive, catering through much bigger herds that are compact in small water holes.

I can go on and on comparing what they kill, and mostly every animal in afrcia is more formidable than there cousins or sub-speices any where on the planet, it should be common sense not to compare them, because what would that prove? None fight like the lion and tiger ( other than leopards who are besides the point), both can bring down massive animals, if you are trying to say that tigers have more competetion than thats a under-statement which could lead to a good oh laugh...because everything the tiger has in his pre-fered habitat, the lion has too with much more larger versions of them, much more agressive patterens from living in herds. In other words, please dont talk about tigers killing wild guar and think that means anything at all, I'd back Bovines one on one with any tiger or lion in a straight up fight 9/10. (Specifically) Spansih fighting bulls...or bulls of that general peak. Spanish fighting bulls have Decimatedtigers and lions in the ring and they weigh less than guars, I would even back a Spanish bull or cattle of reigonal pickings of my choosing that would kill a guar any day of the month, yes...size plays a role, but experince, gameness, agression trumps size almost every-time, martial arts proves that, Bruce lee proved that, Chuck norris proved that, Mike tyson proved that, pit bulls proved that, size will mean nothing if all the attributes arnt alighned.

Which leads me to my next counter-bate to your gesture of lions just joke around and play around in prides....which the catagorie you proceeded to emit will fall under "Fighting Experince"...so lets cover that.

Who has more fighting experinces lions or tigers?

Lets go through the stages of there lives where both wild lions and wild tigers would gain fighting experince.

Stage #1 Cub years:

Lions and tigers spend there child hood play fighting an harnessing the nessesary skills they need in defending them selves. But tigers are usually like any other cat an live a life of solitude having only the female take care of the cubs, while the lion lives in prides, which consist of usualy 2 males and 8 females, an some prides can grow as large as 30 lions in a single pride. So while tiger cubs have 2-4 siblings to practice his fighting skills...


Lion cubs have not only brothers an sisters and half brothers an sisters, but along them they have cousins to practice more consistantly an more often...


Lion fighting experinces=1
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Like all other big cats except the lion, Male tigers live a life of solitude, an abondins the cubs to the female, so cubs rarely see’s the tigress who is off hunting to feed them, unlike the lion who has usually the female lion parent anty or guardian provide the meals while the "males" usually watch over the cubs. In these times tiger cubs usually watch over them selves an stay in hidden dense or thick bushes, while lion cubs can fully be protected at all times by the male lions weather if it’s the father or the uncle who in verse grooms and plays with them as well as teaching them in rough play more fighting skills. Tigers must live the life of an assassin an adapt to the life-style of a ninja, while lions live there life of an Mma fighter who must adapt to the life style of a  spartan…

http://books.google.com/books?id=YlYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA44&ots=rzD1oua9iM&dq=ancient+india+lion+fighting+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Lion fighting experinces=2
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Stage #2 Teen years:

In this stage of usual 1-2 years old, the tiger siblings separate an take there own paths, traveling far and wide to covering new territorys to claim for them selves, this halts an slowly diminshes over the next months to years of there lives lessening there fighting capabilitys until later, an brands him like all other cats straight into the world of a supreme hunter, needing hunt to feed only him self.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlBLrHfNXGlDtGyOPth8ZicoOyqutXK1o8GVGaV7JPA_Du6LFv0Yz1wsI

Lions in there teen years remain in prides, if they do get driven off they form coalitions. These years they get to remain game an practice on there whole pride or group.


Lion experinces=3
Tiger experinces=1


In almost every kill the pride makes, fights break out in who eats first. Un-like the tiger who is usually solitary, wont have this amount of fighting weekly an monthly "Game-ness" through out his entire life, which can consist of minor domination fights between uncles an antys, to fathers and sons, brothers and sisters an some esculating to full on fighting, as they say only the strong survives…

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs36/i/2008/282/b/3/Lions_feeding_by_alecd.jpg


Lion fighting experinces=4
Tiger fighting experinces=1

From time to time lions being in groups an coalitions fight just for the sake of it, due to tempers that fly on rank an statuses…


http://jeffup.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/mrtslastbattle.jpg
http://www.vesch.nl/lionsfight_files/collage_lb_image_page26_6_1.jpg

Lion fighting experinces=5
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Lions are by far, more noisey’r than tigers in the day and at night, they display the power an owner-ship of territory by having a single male roar…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXkGSc6d0xQ

to coaltion of lions roaring…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTDt4cWaZn0

or the entire pride roar-ing weekly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS_Cgkqmoo

which atracts near by rival lions to accepting and dishing out a challenge, while tigers usually just roar or chuff to locate there cubs or alert a mate of there locations.

Lion fighting experinces=6
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Stage #3 Adult Years:

As adults like any animal, insect, human, terestrial… has times of mating where the females go into estress an the male testosterone seeks out the females in those times. So they will most likely all 3; male, male an female cross paths more in these times than any other, an the males will fight for rights to mate. But again tigers, unlike lions who are solitary, will most likely face a one on one challenge…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Ybg8R5U_Y

while lions sometimes must face multiple lions…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pca5u-ud5Ag
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1419305/lion_vs_4_lions/

Lion fighting experinces=7
Tiger fighting experinces=2

Tigers usually live in thick jungles, that have very tall grass, a huge amount of plants an vegatations, an many big trees that are compact, dense, an next to the other. They often scent mark an leave scratches on trees to mark there territory, but actually seeing another tiger can be very difficult even if they are in the same radius, because they prefer to stay hidden…

while lions prefer to live out in the open savannah, where there’s bush thickets an trees are far away in open grounds, so spoting another lion is by far more easyer… from in close ranges to even vast amount of distances, which would lead to more confrontations than tigers.


Lion experinces=8
Tiger experinces=2-1/2

The saying of a lion only fights and a tiger only hunts isint and wont ever be 100% true, but it is quite accurate to a degree of the life styles they live, male lions will fight more than male tigers averagely due to the fact lions are social , and a male tiger will hunt more than a male lion averagely due to the fact he is solitary…
The primary job for a male tiger is to be a good hunter fighting will come rarely, only in two main themes of his life… mating an territory. Now for male lions who often do the heavy lifting an take down the bigger animals in times of the chase, the females majority of the time do the hunting, which leaves the male most of his time scouting his territory to protect his cubs, which murading male lions often kill cubs to make the females return faster into estress. So the primary job of male lions are to fight, they often have to fight males in single combat or as much as a coalition to even as great as a entire rival pride. This is the general basis of how the lion has gotten his title as King. As a King will go to war to protect his people. The tiger wont, the only big cat (The male lion) will do the same as any noble King would do for his Pride an family.

Lion experinces=10
Tiger experinces=2-1/2

So there you have it, lions fight and gain more fighting experince than tigers at 10 to 2-1/2… which puts it at, lions fight 75% more than tigers on average. That is the equivelent of taking a mountain man rambo like human and putting him in the octagon to fight a mma pro like Anderson silva. There are chances Rambo (The Tiger) can lay one of his signature death moves if he is aided by his thick jungle setting an ambush tactics on anderson the spider silva (The Lion) but it seems 75% of the time in a open challenge where two of the combatants are aware an initate a fair fight, Anderson will drop Rambo before he can do anything at all.
-

To finish up with this post...

In comparisons to what you said about a solitary animal/being can be no joke to a social being, is just a absurd statement that has no base whats so ever, a wounded lion would have just as much as ferocity as a wounded tiger, a lion just has a back up luxery the tiger dosent, people who are Great fighters in fact The Greatest fightershave been tawt that way, have been molded by social enter actions, a human fighter via=

-M.M.A Fighter's-Have Teachers
-Boxer's- Have Coaches
-Karate men- Have Masters
-Jujitsu men- Guru's
-Gung fu- Has Sensi's

and what ever form of fighting has a social "Bonding" like... "Dojo's", "Classes", "Teams" that all improves that individual (Socially), in the art of fighting. If you were to compare a person that is a solitary in his training (Punching Bag), he will not be as game as the one who went through all of those stages with there(fighting people), pack= Pride and be more consistant at it... Bruce lee dident just get as good as he was by solitude, he was tawt by his master, constantly going through trials with the chinese over-lords and americans alike...if he dident have a master= Teacher social impliment, he would have been like the average china man at best...the same goes with Iron Mike, as good as he was, he him self stated he would have never have made it with out the support of his coach, mentally and physically his coach kept him game...these are all social impliments, not solitary, the same way lions are hardened, and kept game through there social life styles....there Prides.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2013 at 22:53
Tiger is a nocturnal shy animal and to put him in a small cage with an animal who is in his element in the day time and with the camera and people, the tiger will not fight to kill it will fight to escape and in the process will suffer.That is unnatural for the tiger.To say that lion makes the tiger run in front of him or dominated the tiger will be a  untrustwothy statement.Let me elaborate it a little more.Saying hypothatically a tiger killed a croc stealing from its prey on land two or three times.To assumme that same tiger will be able to kill the same croc in the deep water will be untrustworthy statement.Being in unnatural surrounding is definately effecting the crocodiles abillties to protect himself.He is not fighting to kill he is fighting to escape.
 
Your second statement about those sculptures being photo realistic?Which one is photo realistic they all show a very small tiger half the size of a lion at the mercy of the king of the beast.I like the one where two extremly small tigers the size of japneese tosas  is harrassing the big royal king.Just by looking at them you know artist is glorifying the lion and had relistically no idea about the size of the tiger.
 
And frankly I am feeling at loss on   how to reply to that drama on ganges. Lion jumping up on the indian palm like a monkey.Indian proverb says that it is the most useless tree because it provides no shade to the tired man and fruit is so high up in the small canopy that it cannot be reached.So I will leave the lion having fun in the shade.
A little bit more information on tiger now that definately favours him a better animal than lion if they ever decided to cross paths.
About four millions years back they parted from a common ancesstor and went on a different evolutionary path.Not only had tiger developed better athletic abillities but also longer canine teeth(at one stage the longest in sabre tooth) and claws.It also develops a bigger brain than his cousin.Compared to lion tigers brain is 16 to 20 % bigger.That roughly takes him closer to thinking capabillity of apes.Its short term memory retention is recorded more than humans.
 
With the longer canines it also developed greater jaw pressure.In the quite jungle you can easily tell from a distance that tiger is feeding from the sound it makes by the breaking of the bigger bones of gaur and buffalo.National geographic scientist measured jaw pressure of the tiger to be better than hyena i.e  more than 1000 psi. Others say that it is closer to 1400 psi. Lions was recorded at 600 psi by national geographic. Here is some pasting from the wikipi which i assume you hve seen before-- attesting to the power of tiger. 

Owner of the Londolozi Reserve in South Africa John Varty said, "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time."[19]

The conservation charity Save China's Tigers stated, "Recent research indicates that the tiger is indeed stronger than the lion in terms of physical strength. Lions hunt in prides, so it would be in a group and the tigers as a solitary creature so it would be on its own. A tiger is generally physically larger than a lion. Most Experts would favour a Siberian and Bengal tiger over an African lion."[21]

National Geographic Channel's documentary The Last Lions of Asia mentioned that a tiger has a weight advantage of 50 kilograms over a lion, and can kill a lion in a fight.[22

And here is a thought from RR who had seen lion and tiger in action in actual wild and spend most of his time hunting and writing on them " A dead tiger is the biggest i have seed in my life and i have shot an elephant.A live tiger is the most exciting thing in me life and i have shot a lion.A tiger in a hurry is the fastest thing i have seen and i have shot a leopard.A wild tiger is the most frieghtning thing i have seen in my life and i have shot a cape buffallo."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 00:37
Tiger is a nocturnal shy animal and to put him in a small cage with an animal who is in his element in the day time and with the camera and people, the tiger will not fight to kill it will fight to escape and in the process will suffer.That is unnatural for the tiger.To say that lion makes the tiger run in front of him or dominated the tiger will be a  untrustwothy statement.Let me elaborate it a little more.Saying hypothatically a tiger killed a croc stealing from its prey on land two or three times.To assumme that same tiger will be able to kill the same croc in the deep water will be untrustworthy statement.Being in unnatural surrounding is definately effecting the crocodiles abillties to protect himself.He is not fighting to kill he is fighting to escape.


The lion making the tiger run is not only just a well credited statement, theres more videos of lions chasing off tigers than vice versa, I checked, and I gave gifs demonstraing even female lions have the same formality of agression as the male. We are not talking about crocs, we are talking about a similar animal to the tiger, besides lions have killed crocs just the same.

Your second statement about those sculptures being photo realistic?Which one is photo realistic they all show a very small tiger half the size of a lion at the mercy of the king of the beast.I like the one where two extremly small tigers the size of japneese tosas  is harrassing the big royal king.Just by looking at them you know artist is glorifying the lion and had relistically no idea about the size of the tiger.


Before we go any further, I'd like to ask you to give a honest answer, reply... do you know anything about tigers...or is it you just fancy the tiger more than the lion?...Not Photo realistic???

Are you kidding me, maybe you should learn a bit more of the variety of tigers before you make silly accusations like youve been making...

#1. The absoultely only tiger sub-speices that has surpassed the lion in weight was the siberian and bengal. And the lion can rival there weights to being either similar or hevier on average and can even reach a thousand pounds as well so a minor kilo here and there isint going to mean anything.

#2 All other tiger sub-speices will absloutely always, every time look smaller to a african/asiatic lion, they only range from 200-300 pounds as the norm, far smaller than the african lion who can ranges 400-600 pound.

#3 The chinese and japanese art would consist of the this tiger...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_tiger">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger[/ur]

#1. The absoultely only tiger sub-speices that has surpassed the lion in weight was the siberian and bengal. And the lion can rival there weights to being either similar or hevier on average and can even reach a thousand pounds as well so a minor kilo here and there isint going to mean anything.

#2 All other tiger sub-speices will absloutely always, every time look smaller to a african/asiatic lion, they only range from 200-300 pounds as the norm, far smaller than the african lion who can ranges 400-600 pound.

#3 The chinese and japanese art would consist of the this tiger...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_tiger

So it will only make since when lions were brought over from persia aka the indian lion or Perssian lion as gifts to emperors an royal rulers, they would have dominated there native 200 pound tigers...(End of story) Your accusations that the art isint realistic is now...Disputed

#4. The lion will always visualy, look, appear, seem to be the bigger of the two because he has a Mane that can increase his mass by almost 40%, so I dont know why you are ignoriang the facts.

The only person who knows nothing about tigers so far, would seem to be you.


And frankly I am feeling at loss on how to reply to that drama on ganges. Lion jumping up on the indian palm like a monkey.Indian proverb says that it is the most useless tree because it provides no shade to the tired man and fruit is so high up in the small canopy that it cannot be reached.So I will leave the lion having fun in the shade.
A little bit more information on tiger now that definately favours him a better animal than lion if they ever decided to cross paths


You seem to be loss in general. Where does it say like a monkey? You do know lions and tigers have been seen in trees right? its rare, but they can and have been seen in trees. You have no idea about the pysiology of that specific palm for there is a varity some can be just as small as a plant, and others can grow taller than houses, for even here in hawaii our palm trees would seem to be climb-able to an extent by a lion or tiger. Where do you see a palm tree definitely favoring a tiger on, I thinking your confusing yourself?

About four millions years back they parted from a common ancesstor and went on a different evolutionary path.Not only had tiger developed better athletic abillities but also longer canine teeth(at one stage the longest in sabre tooth) and claws.It also develops a bigger brain than his cousin.Compared to lion tigers brain is 16 to 20 % bigger.That roughly takes him closer to thinking capabillity of apes.Its short term memory retention is recorded more than humans.


Its sounds like your just making this up as you go along, (no offence) to be honest. Its a bit laughable. The cat that has the most similartys to saber tooth cat in terms teeth size, would be the clouded leopard, he has the biggest teeth in perportions to body size, his fangs are the same size as tigers yet he is around 1/4th his weight making him have the closest assest to the saber tooth cat. 20% bigger brain, which did what? There is no study that indicated any higher form of intelligents, a silver back would be smarter than a tiger yet it still wouldent cultivate any means of a better fighter to a lion, a gorilla would be a screaming mess if he ever fought a lion as would a human bare handed would have his brain asist to nothing.


With the longer canines it also developed greater jaw pressure.In the quite jungle you can easily tell from a distance that tiger is feeding from the sound it makes by the breaking of the bigger bones of gaur and buffalo.National geographic scientist measured jaw pressure of the tiger to be better than hyena i.e  more than 1000 psi. Others say that it is closer to 1400 psi. Lions was recorded at 600 psi by national geographic. Here is some pasting from the wikipi which i assume you hve seen before-- attesting to the power of tiger. 


Huh! Thats a understatement if I ever heard one, anything longer would mean its less durable, snap a pencil in half 5x than see if you can snap the smallest peice the 6th time, anything shorter in length has far less'er durability than something thats longer. Those numbers are only estimated, all the numbers in the past have already been exploited and debunked by Dr. braddy bar, hes the man that made the first device to calculate Psi in Newtons, and he tested it in 2006...he has his own show on nat geo and those numbers werent from him buy a computer generated version.

This device is whats used to test bite psi...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9UNEDbXAc

all the old information were guesses, estimates, hypothesis of what they examined or studyed the animals eating, hence most agree that the jaguar has the strongest bite because out of all the big cats his diet consist of turtle and caiman which need hard bites to penatrate the shells and armor skin, they are merely numbers form out of thin air...none have been tested accurately on lions and tigers...in fact I was going to email Dr. Brady bar and see if he could do one on lions and tigers specificall healthy males of both speices. I did email him last year but I emailed his old email that he no longer uses, so the next time I'll get his inormation and ask, as of right now we dont know no one does, but if anything has taught us substance form its credability is that mastiff dogs^ can bite 550 psi his head is only the size of a 1'1/2 year old lion, and to a further extent of why the lion would have a higher bite than a tiger would be from that same video they gestured that the larger the head, the harder the bite, and it is schaller fact that lions skulls are bigger than tigers which would lead to the lion having the stronger bite.


Owner of the Londolozi Reserve in South Africa John Varty said, "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time."[19]

The conservation charity Save China's Tigers stated, "Recent research indicates that the tiger is indeed stronger than the lion in terms of physical strength. Lions hunt in prides, so it would be in a group and the tigers as a solitary creature so it would be on its own. A tiger is generally physically larger than a lion. Most Experts would favour a Siberian and Bengal tiger over an African lion."[21]

National Geographic Channel's documentary The Last Lions of Asia mentioned that a tiger has a weight advantage of 50 kilograms over a lion, and can kill a lion in a fight.[22


Yes all less then medicore opinions, only slightly higher than a person who pet'd a lion or tiger at a petting zoo, none of them can have any credability because the substance of this debate will revolve around opinions of people who have seen them fight.; None of them have. you cannot just assume they have, for you dont even have any credientials of the people who made those statements, I even showed a memmber of big cat rescue (Dr. Antle )who stated a lion would kill a tiger (near the bottom of the page)...
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17524&PN=1

Not to mention I gave by far way more experts opinions than just 3 sleezy wikipedia ones, I already stated, collage papers and news papers can in no way accept wikipedia because they can be attributed by anyone and the substance dosent even high-light all that much.

The only one to have been some-what credaitable was john varty, but only by a little, for the fact he hasent seen a a tiger and lion fight, mostly all the experts I have listed, has either worked with both big cats, or has seen a lion fight a tiger, not a lion fight a lion or tiger fight a tiger but a lion fighting a tiger, they are giving there opinion on basics of the topic, which is lion vs tiger. Its funny how you diss-miss the chinese, and then go quote-ing a chinese org. XD XD

The bottom line is, so far...

I have Proved

- I presented more "Experts" that has favored the lion over the tiger in fighting than you or any one did in vice versa.
- I presented more "Accounts" of lions killing tigers in the wild and in captivity than you or anyone did than vice versa.
- I proved that lions are "Similar" in size to the biggest of the breeds the siberians and bengals and are the biggest living cat speices on average.
- I proved that lions would be better fighters by adding up "Both" there fighting experinces in the wild.
- I've proved by historical documents and artifacts all point to the victor of the two, who was is the lion.
-I've proved that the lion has more leverages and is more durable than a tiger.

I have proved that the data on hand sugest that the lion is superior to the tiger in fighting.


You have Proved

-You cannot except that the "Lion Speices as a whole" are averagely hevier than the "Tiger Speices as a whole".
-You cannot except that a lion looks larger than a tiger reguard-less if its the biggest breed the siberian.
- You cannot except that, what ever the tiger can do the lion can too.
-You cannot except anything of a lion winning or leverage favoring the lion for you proved that by...
Ignoring chinese art, storys, testimonials and accounts and then have hypocritically use a chinese source to prove your point, which ment nothing. You name tigers killing animals that a lion has already killed too, and claim the lion cant.

In reality you proved....Nothing, but that you have a bias stand point.

Nothing, affiliated with the lion vs tiger debate in its self.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 01:09
Crap, more typos and mistakes, I forgot that I cant hit the pre-view button on this forum...it will automatically send it in.

*Face palm*

and I cant edit it.

*Double Face Palm*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 20:49
Have you seen a lion or tiger in the wild if yes when and where?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 22:12
Originally posted by huntergill

Have you seen a lion or tiger in the wild if yes when and where?


I have, about a few months ago, it was the national geograpgic channel.

XD

XD

XD

I guess this concludes our discussion.

Looks like I'll be getting back to making points, since there was a off-topic relations in determining strength by comparing them to other animals, with a simple gesture of lions vs bears...the old saying (with no proof) that tigers are stonger than lions can be made less durable and creditable, now with occaisions of lions out gameing a much more powerful carnivorian/omni- opponent then the tiger's Grizzly and Polar bears...
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/African_Lion_vs_Grizzly_Bear_about729.html

So if lions can hold there own and kill 500-1,200 pound bears, a 500 pound lion should out muscle a 500 pound tiger, a 600 pound lion should out game a 600 pound tiger, a 700 pound lion should be superior to a 700 pound tiger and so on, for I dont think there is all that much confrimation (with credability) of tigers attacking prime male grizzly and polar bears and surviving to tell the tale...if grizzly bears were in the same vicinity as african lions in the wild, we would have much more data on hand on there superior fighting capabilitys, not so much on tigers fighting brown bears other than rare occaisions (contributing to ambush), if I'm not mistaken, there are more accounts of Pumas doing better than tigers in the wild against bears.

Certainly there are just as much if not more accounts of brown bears making short work of tigers in captive grounds,








showing that the tiger is not as durable as the lion because of the lions mane, the tiger isint a well placed striker like the lion, the lion would have just as devistating blows as the bear, while tigers flurys are so un-accurate and quite feeble compared to lions and bears who swat and throw haymakers un-like the tigers wind-mill cowboy slinger who throws wildy. Also the lion has somewhat better fundemental plan in getting the throat of his opponent, he will bide his time and take the fight into a series of rounds ware-ing down his foe by a fighting tactics of up and up, almost blow for blow but in the same process bobs his head parrying away from what he can, and then when he feels the moment to be right he kills them with a well placed throat bite on his now tired opponent. The tiger does not do this and seems to be why the bear uses his wrestling moves to simply thrash the tiger and repeatively body slam him, the tigers tactics is some what un-orthadocs, and dosent really plan anything through, he just jumps in huge bounds and leaps from side to side flailing his paws hope-ing to hit something, uses all fours and latches on to his opponent, that would be a huge mistake against a much stronger bear, who would then simply rampage jackson the tiger and slam him around while returning bites of his own in the clinch, the lion clinches the bear to knock him down, the tiger clinches to grab his throat, a very risky and energy consuming feat...by that time if he doesnt kill the bear or lion, then there second wind will come surge-ing in and take on the 2nd round, by that time the tiger will have exhusted his stamina and his oppnonent can then move in for the kill.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 00:10

So you donot know that china is home for the siberian tiger was and still found in northren china and yunnan province is the home of bengal tiger in china. They must have imagined lion to be bigger than siberian or bengal because they don,t have a lion.

Posting  pictures selected where tiger look small proves nothing when each line written in the books and elsewhere by experts contadicts your claim and two years old cub killed by a adult lion you posted doesnot prove that lion will be able to kill the  adult tiger in the wild.
 
All your data is collected from the zoo, circuses and menageries where natural instinct of the animal is controlled and restricted. It is a different story in the wild.  
Let people be the judge. 
 
 20% bigger brain, which did what?
 What you think?Clap
 
 
 
3 september 2009

Are tigers ‘brainier’ than lions?

Science

03 Sep 09

The Siberian tiger - found to be the closest molecular neighbour to the extinct Caspian tiger
Tigers have bigger brains relative to their body size than lions. Photo credit: Raffinger Enikö

A wide-ranging study of big cat skulls, led by Oxford University scientists, has shown that tigers have bigger brains, relative to their body size, than lions, leopards or jaguars.

The team investigated the relationship between the skull size – the longest length between the front and back parts of the skull – of a large sample of tigers, lions, leopards and jaguars and the volume inside the cats’ respective craniums. The researchers report their findings in this month’s Biological Journal of the Linnean Society

'What we had not expected is that the tiger has clearly much bigger relative brain size than do the other three species, which all have similar relative brain sizes,’ said Dr Nobby Yamaguchi of Oxford University’s Wildlife Conservation Research Unit (WildCRU), an author of the report with WildCRU Director Professor David Macdonald.

‘When we compare the two biggest species, on average the lion has a bigger skull than the tiger based on the greatest length of the skull. However, the tiger has bigger cranial volume than the lion. It is truly amazing that tiny female Balinese tiger skulls have cranial volumes as large as those of huge male southern African lion skulls.’

What we had not expected is that the tiger has clearly much bigger relative brain size than do the other three species, which all have similar relative brain sizes.

Dr Nobby Yamaguchi

It has sometimes been assumed that social species, such as lions, should have larger brains than solitary species, such as tigers, because of the need to handle a more complex social life within groups or prides. However, despite a few studies suggesting a relationship between big brains and sociality in mammals, evidence for the link is far from clear.

Dr Nobby Yamaguchi said: ‘Our results strongly suggest that there is no detectable positive relationship between relative brain size and sociality amongst these four big cat species, which shared a common ancestor around 3.7 million years ago.’

The team also looked at the popular idea that tigers are ‘bigger’ than lions (which could mean that the tiger’s relatively bigger brain size simply reflects its bigger body). However, careful re-evaluation of original field data and relatively well-documented hunting records does not support this idea.

So the team concluded that the tigers have a relatively bigger brain (around 16 per cent larger) than lions, given their very similar average body sizes.  

Professor Macdonald said: ‘Two general lessons emerge from our findings: first, how much remains to be discovered about even these most familiar of big cats, and second how important museum collections can be as a source of unexpected insights.’ 

The next step for the researchers is to try to answer whether such a difference can be explained by intrageneric variation or merely by chance. If not by chance, then it raises the question why the tiger evolved a relatively bigger brain (or why other species evolved smaller brains) after the tiger’s ancestor split from the common ancestor to the other three species.

The answers to both these questions may lie in analysing comparative brain anatomy amongst these species (for instance, which parts of the tiger’s brain are bigger than the lion’s) and similar data from extinct relatives of these big cats as well as smaller living relatives such as the snow leopard and clouded leopard.

Comparison between greatest length of skull and cranial volume amongst leopard (left on the lower line), jaguar (centre on the lower line), lion (right on the lower line), and tiger (on the upper line).

Comparison between greatest length of skull and cranial volume amongst leopard (left on the lower line), jaguar (centre on the lower line), lion (right on the lower line), and tiger (on the upper line).



Edited by huntergill - 08-Apr-2013 at 01:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 04:41
So you donot know that china is home for the siberian tiger was and still found in northren china and yunnan province is the home of bengal tiger in china. They must have imagined lion to be bigger than siberian or bengal because they don,t have a lion.


wild siberians in china?

Hmm, even wikipedia (low credability) shows that there range is in siberia...you know russia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_tigris_altaica_dark_world.png

I think you should stop while your ahead, I never said lions were indidgidous to china, but I did rove that they were imported way back as of the B.C days. Nor am I counting recent transportations importing siberians and bengals to china, Bengals =India... Siberians=Russaiathere are other locations but they are not the normal living quarters of there sub-speices....you should honestly do some reaserch about the animal you are backing up, because this is just getting sad.

Posting  pictures selected where tiger look small proves nothing when each line written in the books and elsewhere by experts contadicts your claim and two years old cub killed by a adult lion you posted doesnot prove that lion will be able to kill the  adult tiger in the wild.


Oh so your one of those fanatics eh? Making stories up, lol...Sorry but those werent adult lions, an adult lion is considered to be at-least 4 years of age, those were males not females becuase they have the mutton chop end on there cheeks, no female lion can have that, theres not one in history to have shown that, the female lion's cheeks are smooth round egg like cheeks, the males have pointy tips on there cheeks similar to the mutton chop even as young cubs... the beggining stages where a male lion starts his mane growth is 2 years of age, they show no signs of manes yet hence I put 1.5 years old...an thats funny I never heard of a tiger cub of 2 years old roar like that before lol, no tiger cub has that type of deep vocal chord at that age, but if you wanna belive it was a cub then by all means go ahead, you arnt the first, I even heard of people (cling-ing for dear life) making the claims it was a leopard before I got its pictures, XD..Sad Its just and implimation about what would happen in the wild, since lions live in prides and tigers are solitary, your whole argument...natures standards...right?

Posting pictures where tigers look small proves nothing?
You dont say???
XD XD XD First of all...

1.) I'm actually going to archive every single circus, sanqtuary, zoo and reserves photos that have tiger and lions in the same shot, this is only the beggining stages of whats to come, you cant measure wild ones because they dont live in the same area anymore, in other words you get a photo of a wild lion near a wild tiger to take a picture of them in the same shot and then compare sizes.

2.) If you think that I'm selectively cherry picking, which would be impossible, thats already more than 25 different places, different zoos, different owners, different circuses, cherry picking would mean I'm picking out a Rarity, if its so rare of have-ing a smaller tiger than a lion Show me more than 25 zoos, circses ect with much bigger tigers than lions(like I have of vice versa) , Have the dates on them in chronological order, there owners name and statistics and a variety of angles more suitable of the same distance neck and neck.

3.) If you are dead certain that tigers are much bigger and larger than lions visually, than when you produce a photo of a lion and a tiger standing next to the other, have "Confirmation" of there weights, there ages, and there sex to prove that, that tiger isint just older than the lion by significant amounts of age giving him more of a weight... head start. Make sure to have a screen shot of the weights age ect Confirming that individual weights, other than that I will not even take your post serious, and just laugh in how you now would be the one cherry picking, because I dought you can even produce one[/b of what I'm asking for, just one man...C'mon, your talking high and mighty, out of all the tens of thousands of photos out there...produce one where a siberian tiger the biggest of the breed is visually much larger than a full grown african male lion with [colo=blue]having all the statistics down of the same age, same gender. Via having the site with the highest credabiity confirming it and a email where I can reach them.

I bet you cant.

4.) I already brought in the weight statistics of over 20 zoologist, biologist, hunters, zoo's, reserves and scientist that actually weighed those tigers, not guesses, estimates and out of thin air numbers and they showed compared to body mass, that would be just about right when comparing a lion to a tiger in terms size, not to mention on the heavy end in captivity lions have reached 700-1,000 pounds just as frequent as tigers did, if not more. Tigers as a whole speices averages aroud 50 pounds lighter than lions do as whole speices...I already proved that, you denying facts only makes you look delusional.

All your data is collected from the zoo, circuses and menageries where natural instinct of the animal is controlled and restricted. It is a different story in the wild.  
Let people be the judge.


I actually have been letting people be the judge, I force no evident pressure in turning people aside of anything but the truth, how can most people know the truth when no one has seen actual data before...certainly not you, yet you still deny hard evidence, which I really couldent care less about...and it wasent my intention to sway any one to thinking that lions are larger than tigers on average, the data shows that its irrefutable...it wasent my intention to sway anyone to thinking that lions on average are hevier than tigers, the data shows that, its un-denialble...where do you see me lie-ing? Where do you see me cherry picking? I try to bring everything to the table and in the future I will, this is only the starting point and already it seems I have brought more evidence than any one on hand/on the internet in the american terms of english lietature, I'm sure other natiionalitys have much much more information on hand, but as for english...I havent come across anyone yet. And agian as for swaying, I managed to have talk'd with many people that once favored the tiger and now favor the lion, with the gesture of saying they dident know any of the crucial and basic information I have, in other words they thought tigers were bigger than lions on average, which is not true.



20% bigger brain, which did what?
 What you think?


Huh? Its not what I or you or anyone thinks, its what you can prove, what can you prove a tiger having a bigger brain does?

Nothing.

You'll only assume, make up, frabricate, halusinate in thinking a tiger can do more and then not be able t prove it, you can only dream of them solving puzzles, operating cars, doing math with a bigger brain, but in reality not one thing better can be shown of tigers being anymore intelligent than lions.

And nice...thanks for going out of your way in showing that lions have bigger skulls, which by that other video I showed would confirm a more accurate speculation that lions would have harder bites.

XD

XD

XD



And I'm sorry if I'm crushing your dreams of tigers being the largest of cats, but ligers have been around just as long as tigers and lions when in the same area, and by no means whats so ever is he the indefinite largest cat...the title of the worlds biggest cat in general goes to the liger...who dwarfs tigers...ya take a male tiger and breed him with a female tiger you get a large tiger, ya take a female tiger and mate her with a male lion, ya get the worlds largest cat who dwarfs any and every tiger who ever exsisted (compliments of the male lions geno)...




Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By sinbad the Liger


Charles knee's circus Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger



Josip 1987 clyde beatty circus Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger


1979 christine samel circus berolina Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger


1904 Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger
http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-liger.htm

Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger


The tiger in the past was unique because it was to be belived he was the largest cat alive, now with futher studys will show that theres nothing all that special about tigers, being that the largest tiger to exsist was Jaipur, a obese 930 pound captive tiger, said by others to maybe have hit a 1,000 pounds, while the largest ligers max weight has been said to be 1,600 pounds, thats the size of 4 average sized tigers.

XD

XD

XD While as time goes along, it looks like the credability of tigers being tha largest cat speices is being closed in fast, and possibly with the right implimations the lion just might be able to strip him of that only title he has.

"We'll see"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uKnkjtaZJU







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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 04:44
Dam, one wrong dash and the whole thing gets put out of place, XD.

Geez havent been able to edit any of the content...whats up with that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 20:32

Siberian tigers are not only found in  NE china but few in north korea as well.

Now where did the ligers come from... i mean in this lion and tiger thread.

If you really want to see with your own eyes how big the bengal gets in the wild, go to sauraha in chitwan where few of the  resident males reach close to  600 lbs scale.I will be there this summer .



Edited by huntergill - 08-Apr-2013 at 21:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 21:37


Siberian tigers are not only found in  NE china but few in north korea as well.


I'm well aware of that, whats your point? In compared to numbers of asian tigers, the siberian tiger would have been the less'er big cat in asia out of all the sub-speices of tigers in terms percentage.

Now where did the ligers come from... i mean in this lion and tiger thread.


I like to keep things intresting, since you bring no substance to the debate other than just saying what you want to say and deny factual data while at the same time contradicting yourself going on...at every turn. And you seem to be stuck on the idea that tigers are the biggest of big cats by far, when lions are basically at a stale mate at this point, so since you think tigers are the biggest cat I figure I make him look small by bringing the big gun, ligers. lol

If you really want to see with your own eyes how big the bengal gets in the wild, go to sauraha in chitwan where most of the resident males  easily cross 600 lbs scale.I will be there this summer.


Uhhh??? contradict your self much? I have seen the chitiwan studys and weight figures, theres no more than 20 on hand that were weighed, and no... I call B.S big time! Since you stated it, (I wanna see you link all the individual weight figures of chitiwan showing each tigers weights) I seen a statement from another member of yuku, an I know the numbers and they dident have no abundecey of 600 pounders, they consisted of 230 Kg averages= 506 pounds. And from what I heard it was from only 4-10 speicimens, that would be the quivelent of going to africa and taking 4-10 of the biggest lions from Kruger park which would still be hevier and linger in the 500-600 range if we are cherry picking (which is what your doing).

Speaking of "cherry picking", I thought you said you dident want to emit or impliment cherry picking? You stated not to look for small tigers (I dident I showed the average) now you pick the very biggest of the breeds high end and ignore the average? XD XD Does this threads title say african lion vs siberian tiger? No, does this thread title say african lion vs bengal chitiwan tiger, no. Its lion vs tiger, so we have to cover every sub-speices weight figures and divide its sum by what weight figures are availiable...(Not grabbing the biggest tigers you can find) we will then get that lions are hevier by 50 pounds. If you specifcally are narrowing your choices to a specific weight class, "which is cherry picking" then in terms vice versa I can do the same, mount kenya had a 600 pound lion as well, so if you wanna use any wild 600 pounder then we will in-corperate a 600 pound lion as well, since there are more than one 600 pound african lion, you wanna use a 700 pound tiger? Theres 700 pound lions recorded as well, any higher up, and we are in-dfeinitely cherry picking, and none of the 800 pound tigers have any credability to them, over 10 zoologist and biologist, along with scientist and zoo keepers (which I already gave testimonials of some) have all gave there opinion that those wild tigers were estimated hence wikipedia its self states they are un-realiable.

And again, you plorolize how big bengals get, chitiwan was only a 230 kg average, a 400 pound lion would still look either similar or larger than a 506 pound tiger because if you compare there mass, a 400 pound lion with a full mane, still would have a 20% gain in mass...20% of 500=100 the lion will be either of equal or greater mass. So c'mon dont kid your self, that would mean the relatively medium sized to big size lions which is 400-550, the 400 pounders will still look either the same weights/mass or the 550 pound end will look almost 30% larger in mass than a bengal chitiwan tiger.

And what happen? You sounded so sure of your self that I was cherry picking, wheres that same mass siberian tiger standing neck and neck with a full grown african male lion that has a full mane, along with the confirmation that they are the same ages?

So its really what ever you wanna post at this point, because so far all you have done was contradict your self...and if you dont mind, I would like to get back to sharing things of substance and credability...so dont mind me, I'll just get back on topic...

Lets speak theoritcally and hypothically here…lets give both combatants stamina guage’s of 100.

Who will have more stamina through there fighting tactics?

Tiger Stamina guage at the start of the fight=100

We’ll cover all the ways the tiger and lion fights, there defensive state, to there offensive state, his moves from jabs to bites and parrying/evading, tactics to accuratecy and power.

-Defense, Evading, Dodgeing, Parrying:

Tigers bounds in huge quanitys from side to side to all around.
(This pleets a lot of energy, and can leave room for error, in hude amounts of leaps you can land incorrectly, try fighting someone and in forms of dodge-ing, jump feet away at every parrying time, you’re sure to get tired faster instead of you could have just bob’d your head like a boxer.)

[size=24>-10


-Tactics, Game plan:

Tigers are explosive fighters putting everything they got for a fast kill, using all four limbs they latch on to lions trying to get to his vulnerable spots which is protected by his heavy mane.
(Fighting someone that has a protecting factor will turn this assest against him, like trying to hit a person with a head gear on and thinking that can knock him out only using a jab, which would barley faze him let alone knock him out.

[size=24>-25


-Strike-ing:

Tigers throw using two paws in rapid motion.
(Which the more punches thrown will plete your stamina faster. Any boxer will tell you this.)
[size=24>-10


-Accuratecy:
Tigers have very poor accuratecy, almost every fight ever recorded they only land around 2/5; 2 out of 5 hits.
(Missing would pleet even more than landing because it throws off your balance)

1.)
One lands, and the rest misses…

2.)
All misses, the swipes are only hitting mane…

3.) All misses, only nipping at the lions mane…


Clyde beatty statement, who’s wittnessed hundreds of tiger fights states that tigers miss a lot more than lions…
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg
[size=24>-10


-Stance, Fighting Position, Posture:
Tigers stand on 2 legs when fighting.
(This cost more energy than fighting on 3 because tigers physiology are not like that of bears and apes/monkeys, tigers are very long 9-11 feet/ so standing on two legs must aquire a lot of there body weight focusing on balance which does 3 things.

1. It diminishes there out put power of there strikes.
2. It makes them focus more on balancing mentaly and physically.

3. It decreases there sustainability of there center gravity making it easyer to knock them over.

[If it wasent for that table, that tiger would have been completely knocked over]
[size=24>-10


Lions Stamina guage at the start of the fight=100

-Defense, Evading, Dodgeing, Parrying:

Lions bob there heads from side to side to all around.
(which dosent cost as much energy as leaping.)

[size=24>-5

-Tactics, Game plan:
Lions pleets much less energy bide-ing his stamina in the fighting game plan that cionsist of rounds.
Lions are calm and calculated fighters and more acustomed at fighting so they are more use to it, hunting condition-ing and fighting condition-ing are two different things, lions are the more practiced fighter so they will be specifically conditioned for fighting, tigers more so hunting. Which will allow the lion to last through the whole fight.
[size=24>-20

-Strike-ing:
-Lions usually throw one paw, which exerts more power and use less energy than throwing 2 paws.

[size=24>-5

-Accuratecy:
Lions have well place accuratcy being they use one paw at a tme, you can better hone in with one paw at a time, theoritcaly the same reason in aligning things or viewing things that need to be straightend, people close one eye to get a more vivd and focused sight of the object.
[size=24>-5

-Stance, Fighting Position, Posture:
-Lions prefer to fighting standing in the 3 point stance when fighting which does 3 things…

1.It increases his strikes by generating more power using his other front paw as a anchor on the ground.

2.They can better aim with using percise pin point accuratecy.
3.It enhances there sense of gravity, this is the same reason in why sumo wrestlers and foot ball players take the 3 point stance before the call or the hike.

[size=24>-5


The fight will be in a series of rounds in the way the lion fights, so the only chance the tiger has in-corperated in how his usual tactics, he must absolutely always try and finish the lion quickly, if he cant he will be suspect to plete his stamina gauge, by the second or third round his gauge will be that of…

{Tiger: Stamina gauge=35}

{Lion: Stamina gauge=60}

Which then the lion would come in for the kill, and be much more efficent at it because the tiger would be then much more tired and has no means of any anatomy that will protect his neck, like the lions mane.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 21:51
Daaaam-ah! XD XD I put the wrong dam dash for the minusing the stamina part...Geez...aw wells, say la vi!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 19:15
To better high-light and enphinsize that you actually brought no experts opinion that catters or means anything to this thread, the threads topic is lions vs tigers more specificaly who would win in a...

Fight

Definition of Expert:
1. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.
2.
a. The highest grade that can be achieved in marksmanship.
b. A person who has achieved this grade.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/expert

The subject of this debate is on them Fighting

None of these people you brought have seen a "lion and tiger" fight...





Owner of the Londolozi Reserve in South Africa John Varty said, "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time."[19]

The animal rescue organisation Big Cat Rescue of Tampa, Florida answered, "While we would much prefer that people focus their thoughts on saving these magnificent animals than on who would win if a lion and tiger fight, the power of these two largest cats seems to raise this question in people's minds. While it would depend on the size, age and aggressiveness of the specific animals involved, generally tigers have a significant advantage."[20]

The conservation charity Save China's Tigers stated, "Recent research indicates that the tiger is indeed stronger than the lion in terms of physical strength. Lions hunt in prides, so it would be in a group and the tigers as a solitary creature so it would be on its own. A tiger is generally physically larger than a lion. Most Experts would favour a Siberian and Bengal tiger over an African lion."[21]


You cannot just assume, they seen a lion and tiger fight, and you cannot use people who seen a lion fight a lion or a tiger fight a tiger, for they are two different scenarios and fight in two completely different ways, you must provide a person who's seen (Specifically a lion fight a tiger). And see-ing one, two or just a few occaisions does not make a person a "Expert" as the link explains an expert is the highest grade that can be achived, so you must provide a person that...

-Seen a lion and tiger fight
-Seen many occaisions
-Has knowledge on the over-all basis
-Provide a link to his exact quotas
-Has seen the out-come of both winning

Again you cannot assume any of those things, you must provide them. You must first show that they have experince handle-ing both lion and tiger, via quota and or photograph, credability will also be judged in how long has this expert been observing and exposed to the lion and tiger conflicts and surroundings. Hunters testimonials are not considred or reliable because they would still lack see-ing both in combat in inter-speices relations, unless you can prove that they have, which I dought you can. Again the burden of proof is upoun you if you cite a expert, you must show all the required information that deems him a expert and on topic.

Presenting those three sleezy reffernces from one of the most un-reliable web-sites wiki, is just a laugh...let me show you what a experts opinion of the most highest credability on this subject is suppose to look like...

{Clyde beatty}


The name "Clyde Beatty" headlined not just one, but two South Florida tourist attractions.

Clyde Raymond Beatty was the epitome of the "Fighting Style" of animal trainer: the lone man who dared, armed only with a whip, a chair, and a trusty pistol strapped to his side, to enter a circus cage filled with dangerous, man-eating jungle cats and subdue the raging beasts for the entertainment of the crowd. Born on June 10, 1903, in Bainbridge, Ohio, he ran off at the age of eighteen with the circus and soon worked his way up from cage cleaner to featured act, by 1927 being billed as "America's youngest and most fearless wild animal trainer."

http://www.lostparks.com/beatty.html


Clyde beattys has worked with animals for just about 40 years. An Had the biggest acts of his time (Mix-ing) 40-50 lions and tigers together in the same show, of the steel cage arena.

Clyde beattys act consist of the same amount of tigers, sometimes a few more tigers than lions sometimes a few more lions than tigers, some lions were bigger than his tigers, some tigers were bigger than his lions:



{1940s}
http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=16177











{1930s}
http://www.granger.com/results.asp?image=0091662&stockindexonline.com=1&screenwidth=795

{1930s}


{1930s}
Clyde beattys and his tigers…


{1930s the big cage}







List of occaisions Clydes lions fought and killed his tigers

{1933}
2 tigers killed, In the the big cage
which was aired on 1933 in this 1962 article Clyde mentions 3 tigers were used an 2 were killed by his lion -

This is the movie
http://www.frequency.com/video/big-cage-lion-vs-tiger-good-quality/19567532

{1935}
Clyde beatty Sikestonians saw a lion kill a siberian tiger in a local town circus
act.

http://newspaperarchive.com/danville-bee/1935-09-16/

{1936}
Clyde beatty 18 tigers killed by lions 1936
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ

{1937}
Caesar the lion kills another tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ar1ZAAAAYAAJ&q=lion+tiger+clyde+beatty+1937+kills+fight&dq=lion+tiger+clyde+beatty+1937+kills+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=59GlULvdIYvrigKyxoDQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{1939}
Clyde beatty 25 tigers were killed by his lions 1939
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA564&dq=since+I+first+began+mixing+the+two+species+popular+mechanics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fOWeUPS_E8zSigKRu4CQAw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA

{1941}
Clyde beatty’s Lion kills Puna the male tiger



{1944}
Caeser kills 2 more tigers
Twice sprang upon tigers, killing each one almost instantly 1944
http://books.google.com/books?id=pzlBAAAAYAAJ&q=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MNyeUNOzJsisiAKSkIDQBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAzgU

{1947}
Clyde beatty 2 lions kill tiger 1947
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{1950}
]Clyde beatty a new young lion named prince kills sleika the tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=3h4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg

{1951}
Clyde beatty lion kills tiger 1951
http://books.google.com/books?id=Oh8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA

{1951}
Clyde beatty lion named prince kills another siberian tiger 1951
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19510220&id=xP8uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nNwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4129,3364299

{Unknown date}


lion saves clyde beatty
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT72&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCQ

List of Clyde beattys Tigers…


Alice=Female siberian Tiger-- Killed by Detroit the lion
Saber=Male bengal Tiger killed by Caeser the lion
Princess=Female bengal Tiger—Killed by Detroit the lion
Bobby=a 600 pound Male Bengal Tiger—Killed by Caeser the lion
Sleika=400 pound Female Tiger—Killed by Prince the lion
Puna=Male Tiger—Killed by a lion
Ganges=Male Tiger-- Killed by rajah the tiger
Trudi=Female Tiger—Killed by Prince the lion
Singapore=Male Tiger
Frisco=Male Bengal Tiger
Rajah=Male bengal 600 pounds Killed by lion named Nero
Sam=Male Tiger
Nelly=Female Tiger
Soudan=Male Tiger
Samson=Male Tiger
Axel=male tiger
Rosie=Female tiger killed by Prince the lion
Sudan=male bengal tiger
Chester=Male sumatran tiger
Rex=male bengal tiger
Roger=Male tiger
Sheba=Female bengal tiger killed by Prince
Monarch=a 600 pound Male Siberian tiger
Gracie=Female bengal tiger
Big Ross=a 500 Pound Male bengal tiger
Venus=Female tiger
Jennifer=Female tiger
Queenie=Female bengal tiger
Royal=Male tiger
Ma’am=Sumatran Female tiger injured by Queenie the tiger
Rouge=Male tiger
Empress=a 400 pound female bengal killed by Detroit the lion
Toona= tiger killed by 2 lions
Nigger=Female spinning tiger
Prince=Male bengal tiger
India=Male Bengal tiger
King=Male Tiger

Clyde had mostly bengals a few siberians and even fewer summatrans, this is just a draft, I'll find all the links to each casualtie.


List of Clyde beattys lions…

Denver
Al
King
Brutus {Brothers} Sultan
Buddy
Nuba
Ned
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg
Pharaoh 800 pound lion
Leo
Simba
Congo
John
Henry 350 pounds
Prince {Brothers} Caeser
Detroit 600 pounds
Bessie 400 pounds killed by male tiger named theba
Sammy
Nero

http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=13310
Menelick


"I'll try and get pictures of all his lions and tigers along with the quotas"


Words from Clyde beatty

Clydes introduction about lions vs tigers:



The lion is the agressor:


The lion has a harder strike, and is mentally wired in battle:


The lion usually has no fear of the tiger, while tigers usualy fear lions:


The tiger dosent have the knock out power to K’O a lion


Peoples missenpertations of why the tiger is said to be smarter:


Tigers are not calculated fighters:


People in general think the tiger is superior:


Lions have manes, while tigers have no such protection:


The lion has superior power and tactics:


Basis his opinion upoun experince:



Compliments To Damon aka the Bold champ^


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg

Tigers are afraid of the lions, want no part of them:
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg

9 times out of 10 a lion would whip a tiger:



Clyde beatty went through great lengths to protect his tigers

Clyde tried give-ing away a lion that killed many of his tigers:

Zoos Don't Want Tiger-killing Lion . vicious for Clyde to handle, he is too vicious for Clyde Fant to handle." the mayor said. Beatty offered to give the lion to the ...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=seYMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=02oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1175,1637259&dq=lion+kills+tiger&hl=en

Clyde sends his tigers out first better protecting them from his lions getting at them…
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1318.jpg

Clyde loved his tigers and loved working with his tigers:












-
-
Clyde beattys status as a Expert is an example of the highest forms of
credability, he has worked with "both" (lions and tigers), he has worked with them for 40 years, he has seen lions and tigers fight each other from lion on lion, tiger on tiger and lions fighting tigers as well, he has even been eye witnessed to almost all of his accidental casualties, he speculates the subject without implimenting bias for either sides, points out both there flaws, and both there strong points, gives appraisal to both there leverages in accounts wittnessed and in general. He basis his opinion on the fact that he himself was an eye witness to a lion and tiger fight. Something none of your experts have testimonials to provide this topic on.


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