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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers
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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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    Posted: 01-Jan-2016 at 17:22
Re-found the link to daniel boones lion who he said weighed 900 lbs:

ATTACKED BY A LION A Thrilling Experience Which Colonel Boone Had in Africa Colonel Daniel Boone the well known performer with trained lions wan a member of the French soldiery in Africa during the 70s His regiment was stationed just outside of one of the worst jungles known in that part of the country and had G number of very thrilling adventures In 1876 said he while our regiment of CnasseursdAfrique was quartering in southern Africa a lion hunt was organized by some of the officers Accompanied by the native beaters and necessary accouterment we started into the jungle Several lions had been killed and we were on the point of returning when a lion was started as I thought back of mo I turned and waited for him to come out of the jungle when I heard a cracking of twigs in the rear and I turned just in time to see a tremendous i fellow about crouching for a spring I i threw my gun up and gave it to him right I between the eyes A lions skull instead of being round is angular with the forehead more or less pointed A ball striking full in the face will glance either one side or another Thats just what mine did It ran along under the skin and cut the skin at the neck I knew that my last chance was gone and dropping my gnu I tel into a position kneeling on one knee with my left arm thrown up to shield my face When he came at me all I could see was a brown streak and then he struck He caught my arm just above the elbow and braced as I was he turned a complete somersault over my head He held on chewing and growling while I tried to reach my hunting knife Suddenly with a lightning Jke motion the lion let go my arm and throwing me on I my back opened his huge jars and gripped me on the left side 1 felt the ribs give way Then I gave myself up a A goner7 I The other members of the party had come up in the meantime but the lion and I were so closely mixed up that a shot was impossible Finally when I had lost consciousness ono of the party sneaked up and placed the muzzle of his gun at the lions ear and let her go killing him instantly I was three months recovering and then three of my ribs were crushed and this arm was a reminder The lion weighed 900 pounds and measured over seven feet 

This is the 857 lb tiger?




lol that tiger looks no bigger than a 450 lb tiger, the average maned lion looks bigger than that. Both these records come from unreliable sources...I dought either or is the weight they state.

No wonder the keeper lee young phill was difficult to find, his name is spelled yiyongphil


1.)

Yongin Everland afternoon last August 28 Tiger - Upon entering the lion only飼育舍(keepers), the reporter was surprised to suddenly surprise to咆哮(roar) of the lion bursts. The roar of the lion can without coming through the "animal kingdom" is in front of the television, but the real popularity of professional training were just beginning its time. The roar of a lion spewing out via heartfelt resonance in the vocal fold, from 300 square keepers space and played a tremendous sound effects. Indeed, "this sounds axis" is the expression was realized. 

The roar was the hero of the獅龍(saryong). The eleven-year-old was born in 1990 in Yongin Everland saryong lion - the oldest male lion eating tiger safari.

Everland tiger-lion safari is the only stand虎world-famous for its獅living. Starting with a lion safari zoo opened in 1976 and 1987 after the tiger safari will be added to the next dwaetgo that opens the "Wild Safari" in March 1992 put together a lion and a tiger. 

2.)
Yiyongpil zookeeper watched a power struggle since the opening of the safari內is "Meanwhile, the frequent change of government, but after the April 2000" POSCO "are accounted for supremacy Safari內has become relatively calm," he said. He explained the reason for this is that POSCO is currently recognized as a champion integration. 

"" POSCO "Ahi is also fighting tooth for now. However, given the snacks look more hierarchies that it is easy to see how if caught. If there are spun the jeep safari內to give the chicken as a snack for the animals at this time, "POSCO" throw this in the "hosik" POSCO stands approaching its halfway point only. "Hosik" Ido course a situation that looks interested deombiji not dare to eat. 

3.)
Tiger crowd versa. "Hogeol" in Article 1 Tiger champion (11 years old) since the wind up line (11 years old) - hodol (10 years old) - hogeol - Lake District (10 years old) - hogeol - jipgwoncheung are often turned back to hosik. The climate of the selling power of being something safaris內glance. 

So #1. When lions were first brought there to everland, the lions roared and was vastly more powerful than anything they have ever heard from a tiger, hence the lions roar in decibels is higher and reaches twice the distance as tigers, as its saying you cant tell by hearing both on the tv, which is true, you can hear a jet engine on tv doesnt mean you know exactly how loud and powerful it is upclose...they were in awe of the lions prowess.

#2 The first wave or group of tigers and lions brought there had Posco as the king and had supremacyover all lions and tigers there, it even states he stole others foods so much they had to drive up to him and give him his own exclusive snacks before he would start fights and almost killed the tigers, it even said seryoung one of the oldest lions there ate one of the tigers.

#3 The acclaims of tiger fans who said hobbi was the dominant or caesar, or rang or any other is, wrong, liyongphil said the tiger hogoel in the tiger vs tigers was the tigers best fighter. Which again, all the tiger fans in english arnt quoting any reliable source, only blogs from korean tiger fans, lyoung phil even said in his other statement that the internet held opinions from tiger fans that they won, his opinion unlike theres are based off of 10 years of experince and observation, the tiger fans just tryed to twist what they recorded...much like how pckts try to twist all the clyde beatty stuff and stated clyde beatty was the ultimate proof that tigers usually win (laugh), that was only when all the records wasnt visible to know, hence like we have tons of records of beatty, we have the statement of Liyongphil (saying in his era posco and the lion group dominated tigers) and in jeongsangjos era (stated idenitity and his brothers like techno, thunder bolt ect dominated the tigers).

They can twist and say anything they like, and edit out any part of the video, in reality the videos are only about a half an hour long, of superficial fights (mostly showing tigers showing little fight, then submiting or running from lions), but the head keepers have seen much more than 30 minutes worth, they have seen months, years and decades worth, and they said the lion dominated for 10+ years...so no dought if one was to contact them, and retrieve all they have to give in a memoir, no dought they would give out exclusive info like lions killing tigers there, and since they are one of few places that do that in a more similar to wild environment, I suspect alot of tigers were killed before cars or staff were able to help them...remember, for a tiger to kill the lion, he has to out game him, out last him, route him and some how get pass the mane, by then the distress calls would alert the other lions to aid him, with lions if they went for the kill, it would be ridiculously fast, one good hold or strike and its over.
 

bigcats.jpg

4 names for everland 2010

and according to the koreans, the lion is faster than the tiger:
149384 2


After the talk with some of the highly regarded indian historians and authority's on the matter of the indian lion, I took a second glance at the ashoka edict pillar placements:
[​IMG]


I found it funny and interesting that the accounts we found so far of conflicts in the wild are pin point accurate with where the ashoka pillars are? Look at sopara on ashoka edicts, then look at where we found the lion killing tiger account at surat:

[​IMG]

Just like the german explorer, look at the ashoka edicts one more time, then look where the ganga yamuna is:

[​IMG]

The same with the bangalore account matches heavily where alot of ashoka edicts are, is it just coincidence? Lions were already there, long before animal traders, long before even Indian religion goes back, they have lion bones dating before humans...I brought up valmik thapar to most of the indian historians I talked to, and it wasnt even a conversation, they didnt even condole him in the same class as a historian, more of a copy and paste taking the credits of other books and putting his own spin on things. 

I told some of the historians about how the accounts had one thing in common, they were all near water, bangalaore was near a creek, ganges was of course the river, and  surat was at the tapi river...so that was a clue, but look...look back at the ashoka edicts placements on the map....mostly all of them are near...RIVERS...bodys of fresh water, where both lion and tiger would absoultely need that element to survive and which would drive both to conflicts regardless of preferred jungle vs open grass land. Hence, I dont think these were just pillars to idolize ashoka the man, but they were land marks in where they saw lions in BC times, not just of the lions presence, why would they emmit a tiger monument if another animal is his superior? Both lion/tiger would be highly abundant, and both can share the same regions and coexist...but only one would be master when both meet, in the eyes of man, they would only favor the more bold and the usual victor...and thats the lion.

But think about the number figures, haryana had 300 lions killed in just several years by one man (probably hundreds more undocumented in each of the lions former regions), and if laws were to have protected them against hunters back then, like how the media is helping gujarats lions, if 20 lions grew to 523 in a century, how much would that have added haryana lions in with the gujarat lions? There would be more than a thousand by now, just from 2 states. If they were redistributed and started like gujarat, then if:

- Rajahsthan had 20
- Medyah predesh had 20
- Haryana had 20
- Uttar predesh had 20
- Bihar had 20

If there was just 100 lions distributed (shit, I know theres more than that in captivity), by some captive re-wiliding programs like how dave salmoni did, that would yield over 3,000 lions in the same success as the gujarat lions.






[​IMG]
We were called yesterday by Lion Guardian Masarie who had just come across a huge eland kill, and the tracks of a big male lion. He reported that it was a fresh kill and that not much had been eaten, so we rushed to the scene, hoping to find out who had made this massive kill!
http://lionguardians.wildlifedirect.org/2010/11/29/male-lion-kills-a-huge-eland/

3....1.5 year old lions kill giant eland:

One morning we came across the 3 young lions on an eland kill. The 3 youngsters are spending more and more time away from the adults as they get older – they’re roughly 1.5 years old. We have been very impressed to see them hunt and kill some rather large animals and the eland was the biggest yet…weighing in at roughly 800 kg.
http://blog.nambitihills.com/lodge-news/lion-kill/

and non-catering camps and road grading in the Luangwa riverine area. None
of the wildlife populations suffered any harm as a result of the flooding. The
Biologist reported a case of lion having killed a young elephant of indeterminate 
age.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+Biologist+reported+a+case+of+lion+having+killed+a+young+elephant+of%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22The+Biologist+reported+a+case+of+lion+having+killed+a+young+elephant+of%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...2398.4772.0.4993.2.2.0.0.0.0.122.230.0j2.2.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.0.0.Ykf7f-_TldE

On our last trip (September 2015), we had a fascinating time watching a pair of young bachelor lions, about three and a half years old, guarding the carcass of a large female eland (the most cow-like of the antelopes) that they had killed a couple of days before.
https://mahb.stanford.edu/wp-conten...BeyondTheBigFive_AEhrlichPEhrlich_Oct2015.pdf


“The feeling of tranquility and peace that was experienced this morning was interrupted with the sudden appearance of two lions and their eland kill.
https://rangerriaan.wordpress.com/tag/lion/


Lions hunt eland far more than expected based on their encounter rate, but only kill them in proportion to the number of hunting attempts (Fig. 1). There were not enough hunts of eland during 96 hour follows to calculate hunting success, however lions non-preferentially killed eland in Addo, as they do elsewhere (Fig. 1).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168440/

The lions killed a wide range of species but eland and gemsbok were their main prey. If we compare these predation data to the known prey population data (earlier graph) lions kill less springbok but more eland than what is present in the population. However it is well known that small species, like springbok, are often underrepresented in estimates of lion predation. Lions generally capture and consume small prey animals quickly and leave little evidence of the event. Therefore, if we only compare species of roughly the same mass (eland, gemsbok, hartebeest and ostrich) lions kill significantly more eland than any other species 


Jackal looking for some leftovers after the Lion Killed the Eland.


An old lioness protect the killed Eland while the rest of the pride is taking it easy

Members of the ridge pride yesterday with and Eland kill near Naibor camp south of the Talek river 

Photo taken of the lion just after he had fed off his eland kill.

The size difference between a eland bull and a elephant shows how big eland get:
This is only the second lion-killed elephant I have seen in over 20 years in Africa.



Elands body compared to giraffes:

eland compared to wildebeest:

But lion do kill eland for I have had proof of this, though I think it is probable that they do so only when the eland are in small numbers and when other game is scarce. There is no doubt that much danger is attached to tackling such a big and 

They killed eland and wildebeest and zebra and an occasional puku or bush pig on Ibamba, and lions attacked the ...

Eland - Lion Kill
Eland – Lion Kill




Considerably larger species, however - giraffe, buffalo and eland - are also taken, and Pienaar (1969) records attacks on ...

The bushmen have told me that a single big lion — that is, a male in his prime — can pull down and kill a giraffe.

gallery_108_860_120278.jpg

He averred that a single male lion can easily kill a bull giant eland

In the same locality two eland bulls were killed together
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22In+the+same+locality+two+eland+bulls+were+killed+together+and+fed+a+pride+of+30+lions.%22

It was encountered in the periodicity described above: chasing down a bull eland in 120 degree heat; experiencing 
https://books.google.com/books?id=p6x_Gi-aMP0C&pg=PA7&dq=%22lion++%22attacked+a+bull+eland%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbu67piZbKAhVU6mMKHcCdBpgQ6AEIJzAD#v=onepage&q=%22lion%20%20%22attacked%20a%20bull%20eland%22&f=false

Lions kill giant eland in tall, thick grass,

She had been bitten on the back and on one foreleg, and through the lower jaw." Kenya Parks archives 1958 "Lions killed an eland bull in the Wamba sanctuary towards the end of June...A pair of lions killed a large elandbull, and fed on it for two days...."On the Marsol plains — after investigating vultures — the Warden observed a pair of adult lions with two half-grown cubs, feeding on the carcass of a freshly killed cow eland.. ..."About a mile from Maktau, the Warden shot an eland bull, which was very weak and appeared to have wounds around its neck and back. On inspection, the wounds indicated claw and teeth marks of a lion." Kenya Game archives 1965.

 Big as he is the eland is not immune from the attacks of the lion ; indeed lions will dare much to get a taste of eland beef.

The natives and lions are very similar in their tastes in the selection of tit-bits: an eland may be seen disemboweled by a lion so completely that he scarcely seems cut up at all.


(Elands can reach up to 4,000 lbs) So, single lions can kill bull eland, 3 lion cubs can kill a adult eland, and eland are one of the lions main prey...via usual, not rarely or only one or two, but many, yet with tigers and guars, even two tigers are killed by him, which there are no genuine records of tigers killing guar to back up the photos of tigers eating already dead guar, no videos of adults, no abstracts of eyewitnesses accounts, just hear say that they do, and not even a photo of a tiger in a struggle or on the back of a healthy guar.

And put some of the mane stuff here:


So it looks like brady barr did, have a bite measuring device inside the animal:


Even more so it shows a small grabbing bite, not a struggling to kill a prey or adversary bite with a much harder force, and thats a maneless small male, a full maned 400+ pound adult would be 2-3x stronger, much like the other source which showed a large lion with nearly 10,000 newtons of force, I have never seen any measuring of tigers past just 5,000 newtons, and much like how wroe said the smilodon had a weaker bite because of longer canines, most likely the tiger who has longer canines than lions do too... tigers have weaker bites.









Edited by Prime - 31-Jan-2016 at 16:34
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Posts: 75 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2015 at 17:33
Yeah, I ask him to upgrade all the new stuff. Quite interesting, indeed.
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2015 at 15:49
Hey catlion, 

Just asked clay to re-open the thread so you guys could still post stuff. Surat, and Ganges are the two more accurate death accounts, Bangalore is a stalemate but the article said the tiger was bitten badly twice in the neck which is fatal, and the old man stating he went to India and saw something similar is a wild card, but one site says the book is non-fiction, so its still included.

I see lioncrest is active still, he should transfer some of the data to his main site and organize it, since all he has is the death accounts, you should ask him to do a upgrade of all the experts opinions that's on here so far. But hope it helps you guys.
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Posts: 75 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2015 at 08:17
Hey Prime. Glad to see you back. BTW you refer to 4 lion wins in the wild. I was only aware of the Ganges and Surat cases. Could you tell me about the other two cases? (one of them being the Bangalore incident.
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Hey thanks again Clay for re-opening the L vs B thread and the Leopard vs tiger thread:



As I stated before, that was his main reason for that spammer being here, to bait people into getting the threads locked so no more truth will be known. Atleast now people like catlion, jaws, lioncrest or anyone else wants to share more info, they can post them in this and those threads.

On the side note, I have spoken with several other people of india who are high authority's on the indian lion, and shared the accounts of the asiatic lion killing tigers with them:

Along with a few other things, they were quite blown away (like Clyde beatty stuff)...I think that will help aid their search in more districts that held them both...some have written entire books on the asiatic lion, and by the looks of it, those records of ganges river, bangalore and surat might soon be a total oblivious case, to a common notion. Some of them have stated, everything was speculation, and turned to the usual the tiger is bigger, longer, heavier, faster more cunning bullcrap that was repeated on hundreds of assuming books, but now the speculation is down to, actual records in the wild, which puts it at lions 4 wins, tigers 0 wins. Hey, not that much to brag about, but with those in place to finding more, do you honestly think it will switch sides with all the clyde beatty stuff to back the lions case of a superior 1 on 1 or even 1 on 3 fighter? We'll see.


Edited by Prime - 29-Dec-2015 at 15:00
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And check this out, looks to be a Greek/roman type of done in the 18th century some british guy name wright:

(you can see the lady standing on what seems to be a dead tiger)

quite funny that some russian guys transferred some of the data to their site for viewing:

lol Hilarious, Russian...as in where the Siberian tiger is from. It seems they fancy the data.


Thanks for the artifact russian guys.

The lion, equipped with the most powerful killing arm in the animal kingdom, Zebra and Kongol are the lion's main food. He races alongside his intended victim and kills it with a single blow of his paw.

The general form of the lion is stronger in front, than the proportions of his kindred tribes; and his broad chest and

lol thats a pretty funny one, two compared of their kill sizes:

I thought the tigers were the better hunter, I'm starting to think male lions are capable of out-hunting hunting male tigers with all the accounts of giraffes, elands and crocs...almost a regular now, what do tigers have new that they consistently hunt, all the biologist charts like schaller them say, tigers preffer things in the 200-600 lb range, quite shy of the giraffes 1,500 lb medium. and 4,000 lb max...and elands/giraffes are no jokes:
[​IMG]


Both those animals can hit 4,000 lbs...the guar is more of a flop...I'm pretty sure asiatic lions took them out just as easy if not easier than the black death cape buffalo, since guar are in much smaller herds.

Lions have been known in a few exceptional cases to attackand kill a rhino. We have observed three subadult lions stalk an adult male rhino from two sides in

huge eland kill

Both the elands fell, struck senseless by the blows of the lions' paws and by the grip of the powerful teeth just forward of the shoulder.



Tiger-buffalo fight...the buffalo always wins:

 A fierce king-lion raided the herds of the Bamangwato, crushing the skull of an ox with ablow of his terrible paw.

Afficher limage dorigine

lion defeating two tigers




a lioness kills a tiger article:


Amorous tiger dies trying TAIPING, Tues. A lonely old tiger which amorously tried to lay its paws on a lioness was killed by the female at the zoo here at the weekend. Until then the two had been freindly. And the lioness had not minded the tigers approuches a zoo keeper said. The killing happned when there were few visitors at the zoo. Appearntly taking advantage of the privacy, the old tiger entered the den of the lioness. A fight followed, ending in the death of the tiger. Zoo officials could only watch helplessly.

~The Straits Times, 2 May 1984, Page 44


The account of where a lioness stalemated a male bengal killing him:

The lioness was the aggressor and attacked first, fastening her teeth with a vice like grip into the neck of the tiger, 

The Singapore Free Press and Mercantile Advertiser (1884-1942), 11 August 1924, Page 6


So at this point, a lioness vs a tigress is 50/50, a fight with a lioness and a male tiger is like 60/40, in favor of the lioness. So, lionesses:

1925 asiatic lioness kills tiger in nagpur, maharaj bagh zoo
1903 lioness kills tiger in british menagerie
1924 lioness kills tiger stalemating him in london 
1936 lioness nearly kills tiger, tiger is saved by water at soles brothers circus
1905 lioness almost kills tiger ripping him to shreds, william cartner thomas
1995 two young asiatic lionesses kill tigress in nadankanan zoo

Tigresses killing male tigers

1967 tigress kills male tiger protecting her cubs george schaller
1896 tigress kills male tiger in the london zoo and eats its body charles cornish
1985 tigress kills male tiger S kumar sanctuary of asia volume 5 
1967 wild tiger defeats male tiger sher jung tryst with tigers
2001 saw a fight between a tiger and tigress later found the male tigers dead body J.C daniels natraj
1984 tigress named princess kills imported wild male bengal tiger rhode island
1981 valmik thapar sees a tiger killed by a tigress protecting her cubs
2001 tigress kills male cage mate in elpaso zoo
1913 tigress kills male tiger in the wild, cinncinati  enquirer
2013 chennai tigress kills mate male white tiger
1956 two tigresses kill male bengal named rajah cinncinati zoo
2010 Shenzen safari park tigress kills male tiger
2012 ranthambore park male tiger steals tigresses meal and loses fight


Combined the female tigers/lions, and thats just about 20 accounts of tigresses and lionesses (FEMALES) killing male bengal tigers, not including the other female animals like beattys bear named dorris, and puss and beauty the leopardess...so whats with all the tiger fans always cutting people off and capitalizing...but if it were a MALE TIGER...lol male tigers have a more poor'er record against other animals than tigresses do. Male lions are almost never killed by another predator short of a crocodile and thats usually by ambush. single lionesses can kill a male tiger in a short fight, even 5-10 lionesses have a hard time beating back a male lion in the wild, let alone killing him. Those records are not so much to show the prowess of the females, but the lack of durability the male tiger has at his neck area. If lions manes offered zero protection, than tiger fans should be able to provide 20 accounts of animals killing male lions (well maned) with bites to the neck. I mean, a leopard or wild dogs ripping the jugular of a male tigers throat open, and 20+ lionesses cant? Or coalitions of 4 males to 1 male cant? That spells a scientific fact, if I ever read one. lol


Screenshot (6)

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Edited by Prime - 27-Dec-2015 at 01:38
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Thanks again.

Any ways, check this out...this is like the 6th account of a lion killing a bear with a single blow:


keepers save tigress from being killed:

4 dogs kill a big tiger at hagenbecks

Lion has the strength in striking to bare brains.

its interesting, since even lionesses has similar striking strength:

A lion kills a hybrid big cat, a jaguar crossed with a lion:

Some notes on how well beatty treated his animals, and mabel confirmed to have set up the fight in king of the jungle:

sultan vs nero

nice photo


these two look familiar, reported from other articles:







Re-found it, heres brady barrs 690 psi lion:


45324501 57

45324501 60

It wasnt even a legitimate test he usually does with that biting gauge thing he has on his regular show...exactly why it scored under all the rest of the biologist who had the lions bite force pegged at 900-1,200 psi, with some as high as 2,000 psi. The 690 psi from barr comes from a nearly maneless 2 year old. Some one should ask him in an email if he could do an adult male lion and male tiger on film, although, I think that would be difficult, since all the test hes done like crocs, wolves, snakes and stuff really dont utilize their forepaws as weapons so they have to just bite, hence the lion or tiger would most of the time paw at the device instead of bite it, explains probably the reason why barr went with another approach of a pulling device instead of his usual gadget he has animals biting on.

Regardless, a few psi will hardly make the difference...but at the moment the lion on record has the harder bite anyway. lol

Sorry to disappoint tiger fans, but the world would never give the title of King to a animal who constantly runs from a challenge:


But for good reason I guess, with lions killing bears with one blow, a tiger to willingly take on a large maned lion in prime of life just does not know who hes messin with...I mean:

1.) King of sweden 17th century lion kills bear with one blow
2.) 1902 Bostocks, lioness crushes black bears skull in with a paw blow
3.) Yellow stone park arranged fight lion breaks grizzly bears back with one blow
4.) Aesop, several anecdotes mentions a lion killing a bear with one blow
5.) Kane replican lion out-slugs bear killing it with one blow instantly
6.) 1895 Nero at wombwells menagerie kills a huge bear breaking his back like a twig. with one blow.

I thought the bear would do much better in an enclosed area, where he can just pin the lion down and keep biting...but it shows apparently not. I was skeptic about a lion killing a bear with one blow, since...its a bear...but with the continuing of accounts adding up of not just bears but all types of sources, shows that the lion truely is a gifted fighter, alot oweing probably to his social system. No other large predator like bears or tigers has it. Hence I dont think they will ever be as good as a fighter as lions. And whats even more funny is that most of the public thinks thats what makes lions weak, to say that is like saying every individual professional human champion in fighting like boxing and ufc never had a coach, gym to train at, have a sparring partner...they had to be social in order to become great, breaking off from the fighting camp doesnt erase all the skills they picked up and training they did.

According to the narrator, croc backed down:

looks like some lions took another crocs one too:








Musango’s surroundings are saturated with wildlife and over 400 species of birds. Wendy Edwards told of a recent exhilarating wild sighting near camp. She said, “This croc thought it would try and steal the impala that the lions had killed near camp early one morning. After a lot of noise and a fight, the lions killed the croc and ate it too.” Musango truly is set in one of Zimbabwe’s most untouched spaces where the wilderness rules





Africa has some big dam crocs.

it became evident that lions had killed both warthog and crocodile:

This source states the largest he knows of a lion killing a croc is 11 feet:

The largest individual reported killed by any predator was a lion-killed Nile crocodile 3.53 m (11 ft 7 in.)

There seems to be quite the handfull of accounts where lions have killed 10-15 foot crocs...quite impressive.


Tokyo museum
http://s52.radikal.ru/i138/1512/91/5028256d32d2.jpg

Thought it was a tiger, source said its lion and bear:


Lion defeating multiple tigers


Edited by Prime - 22-Dec-2015 at 07:56
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TigersForever has been banned permanently. Dual id's etc.

I have reopened this thread. It's up to you folks as to it staying unlocked.
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So I opened the thread and what do you guys do? You go right back at it.

Both of you need to take a long look at what your doing.

I deleted some of these posts. I just realized I would have to delete a lot more, so thread is locked again until you both grow up.

BTW Complaining about a mod on open forum will get you banned. If you have a problem with any staff, you complain by PM.

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Thanks Red clay...

Like I was saying, this thread shouldnt be closed just because of a A repeative spammer/hacker and multi/account person/pckts doesnt want the truth to grow...as its just his plot to sabotage the thread to either hack it to shut it down, or if that fails, play the good-poster bad poster in order to get the thread shut down by switching his motives in making out the good guys to be the bad...or atleast the nutruel ones. 

He doesn't have a single caring bone in his body for any type of conservation for either animal, as shown on his mike rodriguez account, he wishes death upoun lions unanimously, this tactics of switching the question upon me an or others is just a games tactics...like saying how many have I worked with, how many I saved, and donated to conservation...its simple, I dont/didnt...I dont pretend I do, I am against it, but that doesnt mean I have to jump in front of every hunters way to make a point...again the difference is, pretending, much like he has every fake and phoney lie, how he...adores lions, how he was born a leo, how he thinks they should be saved, all things comdedical as if the thousands of things he has written ill'y on the web will just vanish.

Take his last and pretty much only source that has a effect on the tigers behalf, aka King of oudes fighting tiger, that same tiger jungla/gunga is the same tiger that killed the lion in london, aka the same lion tiger conflict charles darwin cited, and the same tiger owned by charles jamrach who he bought from the King of oude, as stated here:

Charles Jamrach moved to London and took over that branch of the business after his father's death in circa 1840

 A fine, full-grown Bengal tiger was deposited, in his rough wooden cage, on this very spot at the gates, having just been delivered from a ship in the docks. The lair at the back was being prepared for his reception, when, the attention of Mr. Jamrach and his merry men being otherwise engaged, Tigris regalis set his hindquarters against the back of his temporary receptacle, and, using all his strength, managed to burst out the boards12. Then he quietly trotted out, and down the main street. The sudden appearance of a full- sized tiger at midday on the pavement of Ratcliff-
 
There are many things bought at the sale of the effects of the late king of Oude, an enthusiastic old gentleman whose allowance from the British Government was a lac of rupees a month, and who managed to spend it all, and more than all, on curiosities and works of art, so that his funeral was followed by a sale on behalf of his creditors11

The initial fight happened in 1850s, pckts source is written about half a century later via:

C. Scribner's sons, 1894 - By John Hampden Porter


In the same time frame 1850's memoir ~ Actually acquainted with the animals of the king of oude:

Sorry but the story from the officials, people who met the King (said the king only had 2 or 3 lions/as asiatic lions were still rare at the time) the years line up perfectly with what charles darwins study of that fight, a following paper of two, stated the lion was old past his prime and toothless, while the other say the tiger was 1 years old (a 1 year old tiger killing 30+ lions is hilarious), others state full grown, no articles of the time attribute to tigers fighting lions, just of decades later from the single incident was repeated by two sources that the tiger killed 31 lions (un-supported by any original source of its time) and killed 1 more while being transferred (supported by charles jamrachs incident who jamrach nick named the tiger Nana-sahib the tiger who killed a jaguar, lion and almost the small boy.) Over time these storys change and are manipulated to a point it evolves into something else entirely, much like the lion vs bear fight parnell vs ramadan, no original articles at the time it happened stated the bear killed the lion, only decades and centurys later every article and book cited how the grizzly killed the lion like a cat would a rat, (even though all the originals state the lion stalemated the bear) the same with jungla and 31 lions, the tiger was credited by the King and people who actually saw that specific tiger to be a well known buffalo fighter (hence the title fighting tiger) //  and tiger killer, (again people who actually saw the tiger) not people decades later writing un-supported statements, who never was there, never saw the fights, and have no alibies to against the mountain of evidence that mention the specifics.

Anyways, I have little to no time for the subject, just noticed that the thread was locked and in case anyone wanted to grow the subject, people can still have a chance to contribute, again...this is a VS match up thread, not a conservation thread, hence take those else where, this is also a hypothetical and historical thread, not a betting match set up for the future...hence any degree of substance is useful historically to try and answer the question no matter how un-pleasent, the documents happened already, its in the past, its done already, nothing else is getting hurt re-reading them, in any case knowing more of the past can better help the future, which is conservation 101. Anyways again, sorry I wont be of much help just yet, still pretty busy...but read through the latest post starfox aka lioncrest posted on his site of the chronological order accounts, and about peter them...doesnt bother me, again the pages of shady opinions peter and his groupies write of anti-lion support will still never be published of anywalks of science literature and be passed on universally, but...if we gather enough information on the subject (which we are almost there) we can combine all of it into a nice little book which would probably turn out to be the worlds greatest answer toward the mediocre or just low leveld compilement of any source has provided so far. As for peter and pckts, on a historical term, what do they have that matches just this:




download




If we take out the text (which can be re-edited, re-done, and manipulated in this era) and, (which is what mainly 90% of all science via archaeologist and other scientist have done on the past during or before litature) what?...History, do the anti-lion and pro-tiger community such as wildfact and yuku or youtube lot, have to compare to just that small contribution? Little to almost nothing...and thats just a simple put together, theres still like 50 I forgot to put in it as some are missing, a better one will have the years in chronological order, the makers name and also the location, since its not all one culture, its actually over 30 cultures who have produced these artifacts from the 6th century to the 20th, in almost every century there is one portraying a lion defeating a tiger...that catagorie is true history, and when it comes down to the truth and comparisons of defaulting lies/truth and manipulation, theres absolutely nothing anyone can do to erase the truth from history. Science does not take sides, maybe human emotion does, but science is, what it is.

As for lion crest, you shouldnt slow down the accounts/experts, you should do all of them, not just male vs male, and not just death accounts, along with the experts, sorry wont go back to yuku it would blemish my honor of have been banned from there...but if you make a forum else where besides there, I could maybe lend a hand in transferring what we have here to there in a more categorized and more neatly manner, that way its direct and straight to the point instead of people having to read through pages of info of our own opinions and get straight to the data/info. Again, not much help just yet, but a while back I did contact some indian authoritys on asiatic lions (since the surat and ganges river account is just to awesome to not pass on) to such as Mahesh Rangarajan, who he appreciated and who he then contacted Mr. Divyabhanu Sinh Chavda, who contacted me and was quite mind blown in the content, as he stated he has been in search of those specifics for several decades and never found any encounters of both in the wild (atleast a fight to the death wise)...and it turns out, Mr chavda, is one of the worlds...worlds leading authorities on asiatic lions:


Of course, I too was still in awe of the accounts of the asiatic lion vs the bengal in surat (probably because I am the one who re-discovered it lol) but shared the other accounts mainly of the asiatic lion fights with bengals in captivity with him. I think probably that will open up windows to having those scientist further look into the archives of india and find lion/tiger historical encounters even more, I am quite sure there must be hundreds more, to even thousands...our findings can help pave the way in places to look. But anyways, hope this helps, and hope to see some newer info down the line.

Good luck everybody, and keep up the good fight. 


Edited by Prime - 17-Dec-2015 at 19:38
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After a request from Prime, this thread is open again.
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Enuff is enuff. Over and over I have stated keep personalities out of this subject. Keep others and what they have or have not done, on other venues, out of this subject matter.

This thread was and is long overdo for an enema. Which is to say closure. And that's what it is...CLOSED.

Both of you need to go elsewhere if this back and forth sniping over Lions and Tigers remains your primary focus.

Otherwise, as I value you both AND BELIEVE YOU HAVE MUCH TO OFFER...find another thread and contribute there as much if not more than you have here.

End of story.
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You calling the tiger sneaky and treacherous is your moniker for the tiger  J.A.W. 

The arm and occasional leg strikes in Tiger Kung Fu style are done in a way that reflects on how the tiger strikes in actuality and in its natural living habitat.
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The 5 animal styles of Kung Fu start with the style of the 'sneaky and treacherous'  Tiger , and involves direct attacks with brute force . I note nothing that says this style of martial art is carried out sneakily.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/traditional-martial-arts-training/kung-fu/the-5-kung-fu-animal-styles-of-the-chinese-martial-arts/

Kung Fu Animal Style #1: Tiger

Popularity: high (for tiger), rare (for black tiger)
Shaolin saying: “Tiger strengthens the bones.”
Characteristics: strength, agility; considered one of the two most powerful animals in Chinese astrology
Strategy: tends to charge the opponent and attack directly with brute force, uses circular arm movements to overwhelm the enemy, relies on the arms but occasionally uses low kicks
Targets: any part of the body, especially those that react to tearing techniques
Physical requirements: relaxed muscles, speed, solid build, ability to adopt a strong stance and quickly change to another stance
Training: push-ups, sit-ups, calisthenics, sparring, chi-development exercises
Trademark: tiger claw, an open-hand grabbing and striking weapon formed by spreading the thumb and fingers, then bending them slightly
In legend: “It offers the power to shake the earth and to be the authoritative king of its lair,” kung fu master Rob Moses says.


There is no primary animal martial art based on the bolshy/pushy lion.   I believe there is a secondary martial art that derives from the lion . The main one is after the tiger. 
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Originally posted by J.A.W.

It is a curious circumstance that the 'personality' attributes accorded by human observers of the big cats
( in the wild, & in circus perfomances) viz, Lions being upfront, forthright bolshy/pushy & Tigers being
'sneaky & treacherous' reflects their natural living circumstances.

Yet this seems to be strangely mirrored by the emotive advocacy put up by partisan fans of these beasts
as shown in this thread, & similar threads on other sites..

The resort to unscientific denigration which then degenerates into personality conflict/abuse/bannings
is perhaps a subject for another thread, or a psychology/sociology thesis.. &  its too funny, really.. IMO..



This group of partisan fans includes you also J.A.W. , and funnily enough you are also a subject for a psychology or sociology thesis . You obviously have been enjoying the abuse and trolling Prime has been doing on other forums . He was recently blocked on Wikipedia AND numerous other sites.  




Edited by Kratos - 15-Oct-2015 at 21:01
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It is a curious circumstance that the 'personality' attributes accorded by human observers of the big cats
( in the wild, & in circus perfomances) viz, Lions being upfront, forthright bolshy/pushy & Tigers being
'sneaky & treacherous' reflects their natural living circumstances.

Yet this seems to be strangely mirrored by the emotive advocacy put up by partisan fans of these beasts
as shown in this thread, & similar threads on other sites..

The resort to unscientific denigration which then degenerates into personality conflict/abuse/bannings
is perhaps a subject for another thread, or a psychology/sociology thesis.. &  its too funny, really.. IMO..
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No, the problem is not to be biased but to ban someone forever like me for just posting something on the lines defended in this forum.
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Is Carnivora the best example of a democracy because it is biased towards the tiger?
Well I do not participate in the beliefs and notions of people from the Democratic Regime of Carnivora.
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Carnivora forum is the best example of a democratic regime.
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Lets everyone settle down. CV is just trying to keep things casual.

Thread is unlocked, but we will be watching it.
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