QuoteReplyTopic: Alternate Explanations for the Universe Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 15:28
Personally I've become more and more distasteful of the ways scientists claim some theories as facts, when this doesn't allow for alternate theories.
This has led me to an interesting website that tries to explain a universe that doesn't involve the big bang, rather this website claims a belief in an infinite universe that needs no beginning or end. It also explains in detail the physics involved in such a world.
I cannot post all of it, because of space issues, but here are the links and some of the articles.
Basically summarised, the current paradigm of representing matter as discrete 'particles' that
generate 'fields' in 'space-time', while
useful, is only an approximation of reality, and it causes numerous problems
because of this. (This is well known, and explains the academic foundations
of our postmodern culture of no absolute truths).
To correct these errors it is necessary to reject the 'particle' conception
of matter (as Einstein did, see below) and describe matter in terms of Spherical
Standing Waves in Space that cause the particle effect at their Wave-Center.
Effectively we are combining the Absolute Space assumed by Newton
(1678) with the spherically spatially extended structure
of matter as assumed by Albert Einstein in his Theory
of Relativity (1905 - 1916) and the scalar wave properties
of matter discovered by Schrodinger and de
Broglie (foundations of Quantum Theory, 1928).
Two further points are important here to correctly understand these central
concepts of the Wave Structure of Matter.
Firstly, Newton's Absolute Space was considered a 'background' reference frame
for the motion (and acceleration) of matter 'particles'. Thus in Newton's Space
matter did not affect Space (matter was somehow separate as 'particles'). Einstein
rejected the 'particle' conception of matter and tried to unite matter and
Space (and time, gravity) as one thing, by representing matter as continuous
spherical fields. So in Einstein's relativity matter does affect Space, as
matter and space are united (i.e. matter is spherically spatially extended
and represented as a spherical field).
The Wave Structure of Matter agrees with Einstein, Matter and Space are one
and the same thing (there are no 'particles'), and thus matter does affect
space and its properties. The central difference is we are describing matter
in terms of Spherical Waves in Continuous Space, rather than
Einstein's (failed) field theory of matter as Continuous Spherical
Fields in Space-Time.
Secondly, and this is mainly to physicists, it is important to recognise that
there are two very different types of waves used in physics, the vector
electromagnetic waves developed by Maxwell, which
describe both a quantity and direction of force, and the Scalar waves
of Quantum Theory, which are described by a Wave Amplitude only. The
Wave Structure of Matter, which describes matter as Spherical Waves in a physically
real Space, requires the use of the Scalar Waves from Quantum Theory (as Physicists
would know, there are no spherical solutions for vector electromagnetic waves
- which is why Richard Feynman had such problems!)
The Wave Structure of Matter is explained in more detail in the short summary
to physics below. And while I do realise that new knowledge is generally confusing
to begin (a limitation of the human mind that affects us all), I can assure
you, that once understood, the Wave Structure of Matter is surprisingly simple,
and very obvious and sensible...........
Einstein's General Relativity requires a finite
spherical universe (it cannot be infinite because of Mach's Principle,
with which Einstein strongly agreed, that the mass of a body is finite,
is determined by all other matter in the universe, thus all other
matter in universe must be finite).
Two problems; a) What
surrounds this finite spherical universe? (Einstein used his spherical
ellipsoidal geometry of General Relativity to propose curved space - if
you travel in any one direction you will curve around and eventually
return to your starting point - subtle, clever, weird, wrong).
b) What stops finite spherical universe gravitationally collapsing (thus Einstein's Cosmological / Antigravity Constant).
2. Two discoveries, one theoretical, one empirical
sent Cosmology down the path of the Big Bang Theory for the creation of
our universe. a) Friedman used Einstein's equations to show that an
expanding universe was possible by the equations, and solved the
problem of the collapsing universe and thus removed the need for
Einstein's Cosmological constant. Einstein was reluctant - believing in
a static (non-expanding universe).
b) Then Hubble famously showed the relationship between distance and
redshift. If Doppler shift caused this redshift then it meant stars /
galaxies were moving apart.
Einstein, swayed by this argument, changed his mind - thus his comment
'My biggest blunder' referring to the Cosmological Constant.
As we shall explain though, this is not the correct
solution, in fact Einstein's 'cosmological constant is largely correct,
but it is not caused by anti-gravity within the universe, but by the
gravitational forces of matter outside our finite spherical universe
within an infinite space.
Further (and this will be explained in detail below, and thus will make more sense if you persevere!)
The only test of scientific truth is how well a theory corresponds
to the world we observe. Does it predict things that we can then see?
Or do our observations of nature show things that a theory says are
impossible? No matter how well liked a theory may be, if observation
contradicts it, then it must be rejected. For science to be useful, it
must provide an increasingly true and deep description of nature, not a
prescription of what nature must be.
In the past four years crucial observations have flatly contradicted
the assumptions and predictions of the Big Bang. Because the Big Bang
supposedly occurred only about twenty billion years ago, nothing in the
cosmos can be older than this. Yet in 1986 astronomers discovered that
galaxies compose huge agglomerations a billion light-years across; such
mammoth clustering of matter must have taken a hundred billion years to
form. Just as early geological theory, which sought to compress the
earth's history into a biblical few thousand years crumbled when
confronted with the aeons needed to build up a mountain range, so the
concept of a Big Bang is undetermined by the existence of these vast
and ancient superclusters of galaxies. These enormous ribbons of
matter, whose reality was confirmed during 1990, also refute a basic
premise of the Big Bang - that the universe was, at its origin,
perfectly smooth and homogeneous. Theorists admit that they can see no
way to get from the perfect universe of the Big Bang to the clumpy,
imperfect universe of today.
If we abide by the rules of Science, which aims to unite a posteriori / empirical evidence from our Senses with a priori
reason / logic from Principles, it is clear that we can now describe
Matter (Reality) more simply in terms of Spherical Standing Waves in
Space (rather than discrete particles and forces / fields in space and
time).
And as Wittgenstein rightly observed, Philosophical problems arise when language goes on holiday.
The purpose of this website is to explain and solve these previous
philosophical problems that arose because of the wrong metaphysical
foundations of our language (currently founded on four separate things
- Matter as 'Particles' generating 'Forces / Fields' in 'Space' and 'Time').
Very briefly summarised;
To unite these four separate things we must describe Reality from One Thing. The Metaphysics of Space and Motion and the Wave Structure of Matter is founded on One Principle which describes One Substance, Space, and its Properties as a Wave-Medium. Matter Exists as Spherical Standing Waves in Space.
The discrete 'particle' effect of matter is formed by the Wave-Center of the Spherical Standing Waves. (See Diagrams below.)
Time is caused by wave Motion (as spherical wave motions of Space which cause matter's activity and the phenomena of time). Forces / Fields
result from wave interactions of the Spherical In and Out Waves with
other matter in the universe which change the location of the
Wave-Center (and which we 'see' as a 'force accelerating a particle'.
I'd be interested, if someone actually takes the time to read all (or at least most) of these articles to discuss the ideas contained within them. Perhaps by posting the specific quote from the site you agree/disagree with?
I know when I find stuff like this on the internet it gets the old hamster running inside my head, and was just wondering if this site is utter crap or has a point.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
What stands out as puzzling was the continual emphasis of the word 'spherical' and references to 'spherical fields' plus the suggestion that GR requires a 'spherical' universe. It begins to sound a bit like a mantra, which is worrying.
Otherwise from the extracts quoted it seemed to be reasonably sensible but not terribly surprising. If I get time I'll probably look at it closer.
What stands out as puzzling was the continual emphasis of the word
'spherical' and references to 'spherical fields' plus the suggestion
that GR requires a 'spherical' universe. It begins to sound a bit like
a mantra, which is worrying.
Yea....it appears to me that the creators of the site are the kinds of people that believe in something akin to a divine prescense of the universe itself. So mantra might be an appropriate term. Spiritual beliefs aside, the particle-wave theory seems interesting. (Although the way it's explained, in my head anyway, is that everything that will ever happen has all ready happened and that in our sense of time we are just in the process of catching up, or something like that, it gets a bit confusing.)
I know its a lot of material to go over, (it took me a couple of days to read it), so I just hope that this thread doesn't get buried before any meaningful conversation starts.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
<<<<<....The only test of scientific truth is how well a theory corresponds to the world we observe. Does it predict things that we can then see? Or do our observations of nature show things that a theory says are impossible? No matter how well liked a theory may be, if observation contradicts it, then it must be rejected. For science to be useful, it must provide an increasingly true and deep description of nature, not a prescription of what nature must be.....>>>>
This is a logical analysis; however it over looks the conscious nature of living as man or beast, and this logical view is the very reason that the secrets of the universe will never be revealed to the living, at least not within the present designs of the finites drama. To live , of this life , the finite life; is to be born free, that is to become born -within- and -out of- the everlasting confines of the universal constant , that is to say, those who live are temporally removed , individually , through the birth as body and soul, out of, from the cosmic hive , aka ...the universal constant, this is the spiritual truth, regardless of observation logic. The spiritual Truth , is the truth of origin, the truth of origin and the constant condition of origin, is the very reason scientist cannot see the actual workings of nature, it having a pattern that seems to explain it all. To explain matter is to also attempt to explain the consciousness of certain parts, and all of the doings or acts of consciousness , all done through the compilation of that matter. No two beings are exactly alike , not man nor beast. Scientist only reason parts of the workings of the universe. They attempt the explanation of that which only the eye of the finite is allowed to see, feel, and smell. An incomplete formula.
Even with scientific achievements that men gathered for over thousands of years... we are still clueless regarding the wonder of the nature that could only be described divine. For instance, light cannot move in complete vaccum... and yet we see light in the universe. So, is there such thing as vaccum... or is there something that we simply failed to find... as usual.
I guess mankind's knowledge to the universe is still limited. Theory of Relatively, Quantum Theorem, Einstein's linear equation, Maxwell's Wave Theory, etc. I often find it suprising how science and religion, supposedly the two great nemesis, have so much in common. I think in the end, our effort to increase our knowledge is like quest of Godhood... wanting to know all that's happening in the universe. Could we say that science is the path of Godhood then, quite frankly, is science not sacred and divine, as the religious people sees the divine beliefs?
Sleepy... I am not making any points here...
I guess what I am trying to say is that when science = religion would be the ultimate knowledge that men would possess. The truth will be revealed in the end, and I'll be waiting for such moment in afterlife.
Some years back, I read about a theory which states, that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
Some years back, I read about a theory which states, that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
I tend to think this has already happened.
~ Northman
Indeed. Someone once said that more discoveries and answers would create more confusions and questions...
We should never forget that science doesn't search for the final truth but for models that REPRESENT what the know TODAY about reality.
Models are created, tested, changed and discarted.
Most models of reality that physics have today will be obsolete in the future, like the ether, the flogist or the Lammarckian evolution theory are now.
Occam razor is still working discarting fantasies and, who know, perhaps black holes or quantum mechanics could be sent to the garbagge can in the near future. No theory has the future assured
Most models of reality that physics have today will be obsolete in the
future, like the ether, the flogist or the Lammarckian evolution theory
are now.
That's the problem though pinguin, modern science is trampling any alternative theories because of two reasons.
1. Scientists have all staked their claims on the traditional theories and thus are too far involved in it to say they are wrong.
2. These same scientists justify their own position by rejecting articles in their journals that are contrary to their own thoughts. Thus hindering the scientific process and contradicting the entire point of scientific journals.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Most models of reality that physics have today will be obsolete in the future, like the ether, the flogist or the Lammarckian evolution theory are now.
That's the problem though pinguin, modern science is trampling any alternative theories because of two reasons.
1. Scientists have all staked their claims on the traditional theories and thus are too far involved in it to say they are wrong.
2. These same scientists justify their own position by rejecting articles in their journals that are contrary to their own thoughts. Thus hindering the scientific process and contradicting the entire point of scientific journals.
I thought Pinquin's post was good. I don't think your objections are justified in the majority of cases.
That's the problem though pinguin, modern science is trampling any alternative theories because of two reasons.
1. Scientists have all staked their claims on the traditional theories and thus are too far involved in it to say they are wrong.
2. These same scientists justify their own position by rejecting articles in their journals that are contrary to their own thoughts. Thus hindering the scientific process and contradicting the entire point of scientific journals.
I just don't agree. No matter how much inertia the scientific establishment has, when an idea is really good, and it can be proven, no scientist can stopped it. It does not matter if they can publish of not in the best magazines. Any really brilliant conception shine by itself.
I do believe most of current theories are quite mediocre so far.
The only problem is that really good theories take a time to appear. But they'll do.
I just don't agree. No matter how much inertia the scientific
establishment has, when an idea is really good, and it can be proven,
no scientist can stopped it. It does not matter if they can publish of
not in the best magazines. Any really brilliant conception shine by
itself.
I agree but when you are dealing with theories that are essentially "unprovable" except in mathematical equations. Such as the creation of the universe, scientists can debate it till the end of time and right now the big bang scientists can always just say, well ours is proven because we say so...and you can't tell me many scientists don't treat the Big Bang like fact.
I think that really good theories take so much time to appear because they can't get their message out so that they can be revised, researched and taught by other scientists. A good theory doesn't mean squat if it doesn't have a prestigious name behind it, such as what Einstein went through when he first published his theories of relativity.
glce (and I guess Pinguin as well) I too thought pinguin's post was good, I just don't fully agree with it, again I wasn't attacking pinguin or anything like that.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
At least I don't believe much in the wormholes theories, parallel universes, or in the Sagan's concept that the universe is full of life. The problem is how to prove it right or wrong? So far there are not theoretical or practicals ways to force a proof (if anyone in here invents one way, the Nobel is waiting for you). So those things are just part of speculative science, nothing else. Scientists use them to call our attention or look for financial aid. The true is they don't have a clue, so far.
The public, in general, tends to believe the truth is what a famous scientist speaks. No, that's not the truth. The only approximation to the reality we have are models that have been proven against evidence.
We know that Special Relativity works, and that times goes slower when a vehicule move fast, because it has been measured by athomic clocks on airplanes. We know General relativity works because curved light rays have been photographed during solar eclipses.
Nobody has ever seen a wormhole, gone to a parallel dimension, or meet an E.T. that looks like a frog . Outside the TV set, of course.
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