KARS-AKHALKALAKI-TBILISI-BAKU RAILWAY DEAL

Bulldog, you seem a liitle too sure about Turkey's abilities dont you?

Maybe if Turkey had not closed off the border in the first place, then the economic problems in Eastern Anatolia, with mainly Kurdish population would have eased. Turkey has more immediate problems in Iraq, and being a hostage to Azerbaijan's politics is not helping.

Armenia has been one of the fastest developing countries in the World with 70% of its borders blocked (albeit not as fast as Azerbaijan), you are making it seem like the country is in desperation.

Also, are you implying that Azerbaijan is going to wait 30 years, to deplete is oil reserves (so damaging the pipeline would have no affect) and then attack Armenia...~50 years after the Karabakh war.






Edited by mamikon - 26-Jan-2007 at 13:32

Originally posted by Bulldog Not really, I'm just looking at the issue from the outside, Turkey is setting a prosperous path for the future. Armenia's pollitics seem self-destructive and not beneficial to the country.

How so? Armenia is doing everything to survive. A foreign journalist in Nagorno Karabakh once stated "Armenians are fighting for their survival, Azeries for their pride"

Originally posted by bulldog Armenian border is with Kars, Igdir, Erzerum region, these are not predominantly Kurdish areas.

True, however, trade is trade...it spreads

btw, only one project has been completed involving Azerbaijan and thats the BTC pipeline...I have no clue what the others are, and I am not look for them either.

Originally posted by bulldog If she carries on like this she will be as Armenia is missing out on the transformation of the region. Wouldn't it be better for Armenia if she was a part of these projects and became a key centre of trade, prosperity and a stratetic country in the region.

by losing Karabakh and Zangezur (you know this will be next if Karabakh is returned to Azerbaijan), then no, we will try our best as it is now thank you

Originally posted by bulldog She shall do what is needed when it's needed.

Do you really think Azerbaijan will win if another war starts? it stand to lose much more

Originally posted by mamikon Bulldog, you seem a liitle too sure about Turkey's abilities dont you? Maybe if Turkey had not closed off the border in the first place, then the economic problems in Eastern Anatolia, with mainly Kurdish population would have eased. Turkey has more immediate problems in Iraq, and being a hostage to Azerbaijan's politics is not helping. Armenia has been one of the fastest developing countries in the World with 70% of its borders blocked (albeit not as fast as Azerbaijan), you are making it seem like the country is in desperation. Also, are you implying that Azerbaijan is going to wait 30 years, to deplete is oil reserves (so damaging the pipeline would have no affect) and then attack Armenia...~50 years after the Karabakh war.

What has Armenia to offer Turkey? Wait i'll say it, almost nothing. Turkey doesnt need Armenia, Armenia does need Turkey dude realize it. Armenia is surrounded by Turkey and his allies.

ALso one thing, if I was armenia I think i would also invaded karabagh, because it is the only "way" where Armenia can escape of pressure. If Armenia gives up karabagh, it wont be a Russian colony but a Turko-american colony...

Think realistic, russians are the armenians only hope.

I am well aware that Armenia can not give anything material to Turkey thank you...Monaco cant give anything to France either.

Basically you are saying, I will be your enemy unless you give me x...not a healthy mentality

PS: Armenia did not invade anyone, Armenia did not join the war


Edited by mamikon - 26-Jan-2007 at 15:29

Originally posted by Bulldog Mamikon Also, are you implying that Azerbaijan is going to wait 30 years, to deplete is oil reserves (so damaging the pipeline would have no affect) and then attack Armenia...~50 years after the Karabakh war.   She shall do what is needed when it's needed.

     A high proportion of the soldiers in the previous war from the Azeri side were from the Talysh and Lezgin national minorities. Azerbaijan is not willing to fight, and having better technology 50 years down the line just means they will last longer in a war until they eventually get defeated again. As mamikon said, the war means completely different things for both sides (for Armenians its survival). You forget that when the last war started the Armenians didnt even possess a single tank or aircraft. This isn't the case today.

     And mamikon is right, the nationalists who run Azerbaijan have their eyes set on Zangezur, which is Armenia's only link with Iran. Giving up Karabakh means they will go after Zangezur, as they believe this is part of their "homeland". You don't seem very familiar with Azeri nationalism.

     But I agree with the general point that Armenia needs to strike a deal with Azerbaijan in regards to the Karabakh issue, in order to be one big step closer to normality (its at least a good pretext to have 80% of the borders reopened). But you must understand, to Armenians, giving up Karabakh means giving up the rights of the Armenian majority who lives there. They can't trust Azeri authority again.

Originally posted by Bulldog That's what is sad for ROA, the Diaspora lives in nice Villa's in LA but the situation in Armenia and its future is not so bright but they don't care about this because they are obessed with anti-Turkism.

     I didn't know this 3-bedroom house in L.A. that I live in was considered a villa

     But if you ask me, there's not enough diaspora influence on Armenia. Look at Armenia's leaders...they are mostly corrupt, Soviet-style mafiosis (like Aliyev) who mostly care about their fortunes, and who have a smaller perception of what happens outside their borders than say, a highly educated Armenian from London.

     And btw, advocating acceptence for the genocide isn't "anti-Turkism", any more than accepting the Holocaust was anti-German. Lets not get into this again.

And btw, advocating acceptence for the genocide isn't "anti-Turkism", any more than accepting the Holocaust was anti-German. Lets not get into this again.

Originally posted by Mortaza And btw, advocating acceptence for the genocide isn't "anti-Turkism", any more than accepting the Holocaust was anti-German. Lets not get into this again.   True but this is not situation with Diaspora. They are against every Turkish work.(Remember Lebanon protest of armenians)

     Besides Turks, no other group in the world has more Turkish speakers than the Armenian diaspora (especially Lebanese Armenians). We even eat Turkish foods...imambayendu (bad spelling), Hungar behendi, etc etc.

     In fact, I bet more Armenians can speak, read and write in Ottoman Turkish than Turks can, since many Armenians speak Arabic and Turkish, so they know the language and the script.

     The protest of the Lebanese Armenians was against sending Turkish peace-keeping troops to Lebanon. Can you blame Armenians who lost their homes due to Ottoman military to be against the presence of Turkish soldiers?

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival Originally posted by Mortaza And btw, advocating acceptence for the genocide isn't "anti-Turkism", any more than accepting the Holocaust was anti-German. Lets not get into this again.   True but this is not situation with Diaspora. They are against every Turkish work.(Remember Lebanon protest of armenians)      Besides Turks, no other group in the world has more Turkish speakers than the Armenian diaspora (especially Lebanese Armenians). We even eat Turkish foods...imambayendu (bad spelling), Hungar behendi, etc etc.      In fact, I bet more Armenians can speak, read and write in Ottoman Turkish than Turks can, since many Armenians speak Arabic and Turkish, so they know the language and the script.

cool (but your point is?)

Originally posted by xi tujue cool (but your point is?)

     My point is how can the diaspora be anti-Turkish when a large proportion of it speaks modern Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, eats Turkish foods and is more familiar with Turkish culture than 99% of the world?