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Feminine Masculine what's the deal?
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Reginmund View Drop Down
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Feminine Masculine what's the deal?
    Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 10:10
What I think Bulldog was looking for, and which neither anyone here nor his teacher has given him, is some general rule or method he could follow to find out whether a word is masculine or feminine.

In Spanish, the Latin language I have studied the most besides Latin itself, this is easily done by merely looking at the end letter of the word. In French however, there are no hard and fast rules on what words are masculine and feminine, it's frustratingly enough a matter of memorizing it as part of your vocabulary.

This takes time and repetition, but unless you wish to speak perfect French it's no big deal, they'll still understand what you're saying.

Edited by Reginmund - 20-Jan-2007 at 10:11
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 10:29
Thanks Reginmund that's exactly the problem I was having, when trying to learn a new language I find it easier to learn patterns and rules. Using this method the language starts making sense it's like a video game once you know the buttons on the control pad, how its all operated and how it works you can logically figure everything out and be creative in your progress. But this masculine, feminine issue in French means you have to just remember how its done but not actually understand how and why its done which makes it in my opinion tough when trying to learn it.
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Posts: 128 		  Quote Lepidodendron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 10:42
Up to a certain extent the Latin rules can be applied to French. For instance, words ending in -ion and -t (conversion, varit) are feminine, like their Latin equivalents in -io and -tas (conversio, varietas). Try this list for French feminine endings: http://french.about.com/library/weekly/bl-gender-f.htm (Keep in mind that the words listed are exceptions, not examples!)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 11:04
Yes, and that trick works for more languages. Words with common endings are often female. In Spanish it's the same as in French (-in , -dad), and it also works in German (-keit, -tion, -ung).
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 11:21
I think that pinguin explained this days ago but i can't find it.

In spanish, generally, the feminine end in -a and the masculine in -o, and this can be useful for sustantives and adjetives, see:

Casa (house), femenine
Edificio (building), masculine

Casa amarilla (yellow house), femenine
Edificio amarillo (yellow building), masculine


There is a lot exceptions of course but this is the usual.
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 11:30
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

In Spanish it's the same as in French (-in , -dad), 


You are right, all that words are feminine, ummm sure all these words have a common explanation but i'm not very sure about wich.


Edited by Ikki - 20-Jan-2007 at 11:31
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Posts: 128 		  Quote Lepidodendron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 11:39
Originally posted by Ikki

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

In Spanish it's the same as in French (-in , -dad), 


You are right, all that words are feminine, ummm sure all these words have a common explanation but i'm not very sure about wich.
 
That common explanation is called Latin.
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Posts: 128 		  Quote Lepidodendron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 12:14
Hm, I can't find a good overview on the internet right now, but I'll try to give some very general rules.
 
- Most words ending in -a in Latin are feminine in both Latin and French (and, I suppose, in Spanish and the other Romance languages):
L tabula, F la table (table)
L gloria, F la gloire (glory)
 
- Most words ending in -us in Latin (but by no means all of them!) are masculine:
L ventus, F le vent (wind)
L mundus, F le monde (world)
 
- Latin words ending in a consonant + s are normally feminine:
L vox, F la voix (voice)
L nix, F la neige (snow)
 
There are a couple of exceptions: pons (bridge), for instance, is masculine (as in French, le pont). And of course words denoting males are masculine: L rex (king), F le roi.
 
- Also feminine are words ending in -io (L mansio ('place to stay'), F la maison (house), -tas (L veritas, F la verit (truth)).
 
This list is by no means complete, but it might help a little. I recommend you consult a Latin grammar for more specific rules.
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 13:09
Originally posted by Lepidodendron

[QUOTE=Ikki]
 
That common explanation is called Latin.


And the curious man asked then, why all those words are femenine in latin? Tongue

I see that, this -ion show certain type of word, abstract concepts umm, action not as verb but in sustantive, for example

Acusar (verb, to accuse)

Acusacin (sustantive, accusation)

Acusativo (adjetive -can be sustantive-, accusative)

In spanish the relation is always verb, sustantive and a derivated adjetive (and i suppose, in english because is a latin word). Wich appeared first, verb or sustantive? I don't know surelly we must search in latin but for me is clear that the words appear always as a pair sustantive-verb, two words about the same concept but lightly different, case?

My problem is that i can find a good explanation for the function of the words ended in -ion Angry
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 13:13
Originally posted by Lepidodendron

Hm, I can't find a good overview on the internet right now, but I'll try to give some very general rules.
 
- Most words ending in -a in Latin are feminine in both Latin and French (and, I suppose, in Spanish and the other Romance languages):
L tabula, F la table (table)
L gloria, F la gloire (glory)
 
- Most words ending in -us in Latin (but by no means all of them!) are masculine:
L ventus, F le vent (wind)
L mundus, F le monde (world)
 


As i said before, the rule is completed in spanish using the -o for masculine, wich derivated from the latin -us . Latin Patronus derive in spanish Patrono, Mundus-Mundo, Clerigus-Clrigo...


Edited by Ikki - 20-Jan-2007 at 13:14
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Posts: 128 		  Quote Lepidodendron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 13:25
The nouns in -io are called nomen actionis and derive from verbs. A nomen actionis is meant to express an action. The past participle is used to form a substantive:
 
movere --> motum --> motio
formare --> formatum --> formatio
transferre --> translatum --> translatio
accusare --> accusatum --> accusatio
 
etc.


Edited by Lepidodendron - 20-Jan-2007 at 13:26
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 13:31
Originally posted by Lepidodendron

The nouns in -io are called nomen actionis and derive from verbs. A nomen actionis is meant to express an action. The past participle is used to form a substantive:
 
movere --> motum --> motio
formare --> formatum --> formatio
transferre --> translatum --> translatio
accusare --> accusatum --> accusatio
 
etc.


Oh man, you had saved my day thanks very much Thumbs%20Up
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 03:44
I have learned that as a very loose rule of thumb, most substantial things are male and a lot of insubstantial ones are female. This is actually only true in like 70% of the words, but when you don't know, you can guess this way...LOL
 
Personally, I just tend to skip the difficult bits...

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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 15:07
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I have learned that as a very loose rule of thumb, most substantial things are male and a lot of insubstantial ones are female. This is actually only true in like 70% of the words, but when you don't know, you can guess this way...LOL
 
Personally, I just tend to skip the difficult bits...


You aren't feminist, right? LOL
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Posts: 157 		  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 15:25
ok, back in high school i learned in english class (of all languages) about how masculinity/feminity were decided. basically, it all comes down to sex, where man was viewed as the actor and women as the one acted upon. therefore, objects which are agents of action are masculine, objects acted upon are feminine, taking nuances and exceptions in stride.

therefore, the sun was masculine, while the field was feminine. the sun sends out light. the field is ploughed, and things grow from it. the chair is sat upon, the table too.

but seeing as languages evolve, no doubt the original order and coherence of this convention has become obscure.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Etherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 18:33
The early stages of the Indo-European language (from which we get languages like French and German)probably had no gender at all. Then an animate/inanimate distinction arose based on whether a noun could be th subject of a transitive verb. After the Anatolian languages separated there arose a feminine gender. I'm not sure exactly what the distinction was but it included females. Then there was a period of dialect formation. Some languages kept and expnded all three genders. Some lost one or more genders. Sometimes genders got switched around. Because of some phonetic changes there were words that had endings similar to of completely different genders and so were absorbed into that gender.

To the OP, if you need to know why the gender of any particular word is the way it is then you're going to have to do a lot of investigating because each word will have its own history. While a worthy subject for the historical linguist, for the student trying to learn a language it's a lot of work that would get in the way of learning the language. That's why your teachers didn't bother to answer and told you to just accept it.
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Posts: 211 		  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 01:22
grammatical gender is my Achilles' Heel when it comes to trying to learn a language. It doesn't help that, IIRC that (if one ignores pronouns) English is the only Indo-European language without grammatical gender. 
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 22:42
İ also cant understand that gender issue, because there are no genders in my language(Turkish). Wacko
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 02:03
Originally posted by Lepidodendron

Hm, I can't find a good overview on the internet right now, but I'll try to give some very general rules.
 

- Most words ending in -a in Latin are feminine in both Latin and French (and, I suppose, in Spanish and the other Romance languages):

L tabula, F la table (table)

L gloria, F la gloire (glory)

 

- Most words ending in -us in Latin (but by no means all of them!) are masculine:

L ventus, F le vent (wind)

L mundus, F le monde (world)

 

- Latin words ending in a consonant + s are normally feminine:

L vox, F la voix (voice)

L nix, F la neige (snow)

 

There are a couple of exceptions: pons (bridge), for instance, is masculine (as in French, le pont). And of course words denoting males are masculine: L rex (king), F le roi.

 

- Also feminine are words ending in -io (L mansio ('place to stay'), F la maison (house), -tas (L veritas, F la verit� (truth)).

 

This list is by no means complete, but it might help a little. I recommend you consult a Latin grammar for more specific rules.

You might want to qualify that to most nouns with a nomitive singular form ending in -a are feminine. The Latin word arma ends in -a but is neuter. Most neuter nouns in the nomitive plural form end in -a; ie animalia, maria, alia etc.
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Posts: 154 		  Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 04:32

The guidelines shown above are helpful, but as noted there are a lot of exceptions - especially in French, since that language's words are the furthest removed from their Latin roots.

Although I don't really know of a way to help predict what particular French words will be feminine or masculine, I think I can at least provide an explanation of why these concepts exist. It has nothing to do with the words themselves, but rather with grammar. Unlike English (or Turkish), French doesn't really depend on sentence structure to identify which subject corresponds with which object and/or verb. This is what their genders are for. Basically they allow you to introduce multiple subjects into a single sentence and still let your audience figure out what you're saying about each of them.

This system makes the language harder to learn, unfortunately, but it pays off in the end by allowing the creation of complex sentences that would be impossible to build using English grammar. My guess would be that languages like English and Turkish dispensed with gender because they developed in more multi-ethnic environments where ease of learning was a bigger consideration.
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