Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Celtiberian Languages
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
J.M.Finegold View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 11-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 457 		  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Celtiberian Languages
    Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 16:32
What was the language of the Celtiberians, or the various languages?  I'm researching for an upcoming book I'm planning to write about the Early Roman Empire (509 B.C.E to 265 B.C.E.).

Thank you!
Back to Top
pytheas View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 14-Dec-2004
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 130 		  Quote pytheas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 02:13

Dux,

I too have been researching that period and the pre-Roman cultures of Iberia as well.  The Celtiberians were a mix of Gallic Celt and some mysterious pre-IndoEuropean group that may be best likened to the language of the Basque, but when attemptes were made to apply Basque syntax to ancient Celtiberian inscriptions, the translations failed.  There are inscriptions found on pottery and funerary masonry, and some of the inscriptions are in a Latinised alphbet, while others employ a more semetic system such as Phoenician.  Though the Ionic Greeks colonised that penninsula as well, their alphbet did not become widespread.  Of course the tribes applied other scripts that met their spoken language sounds, but each fell short to some extent because not all sounds were properly represented in borrowed foreign script.  Below are some books I might recommend you strat with and of course the subject and period of time has spawned a wide variety of academic works in archaeology, history, and linguistics.  Let me know if you have any other questions about that era in Iberia!

1.  Books that primarily deal with Iberian Prehistory/protohistory:

A.  Castro, Maria C.F.   Iberia in Prehistory.  ISBN #0-631-16794-3

B.  Ruiz, Arturo and Manuel Molinos.   The Archaeology of the Iberians. ISBN#0521564026

C.  Harrison, Richard J.  Spain at the Dawn of History.  ISBN#?, LCC#87-51688--Has a good chapter (although dated) on the langauges of the Celtiberians.

2.  Books with chapters dedicated to Iberia:

A.  Maier, Bernard.  The Celts. ISBN#0-268-02361-1

B.  Rankin, H.D.  Celts and the Classical World.  (there might be a newer edition than this 1987)  ISBN#0-918400-06-6

C.  Green, Miranda J. (Now Miranda Aldhouse Green) {editor}.  The Celtic World.  ISBN#0415-05764-7 (recommend the hardback version as it is a monster volume and a paperback probably wouldn't last very long)  *especially note Part I (where you will see Rankin author of above mentioned book listed as a contributor), Part IX (pgs. 533-550) and maybe Part XII (pgs. 804-814)

An additional book I recommend to anyone interested in the Celts is below:

Cunliffe, Barry.  Facing the Ocean.  There's a pretty good qualtiy paperback of this book, but here's the infor for the first edition:  ISBN#0-19-924019-1
Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.
Back to Top
J.M.Finegold View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 11-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 457 		  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 11:21
Thanks a lot!  I'll look on Amazon or on the Casa del Libro websites to see if I can find those books.

Again, appreciate it!
Back to Top
pytheas View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 14-Dec-2004
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 130 		  Quote pytheas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2005 at 15:21
no problem!  And if you read Spanish, a number of the above books were written in Spanish originally and may be easier to find...
Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 20:18
I have in one book the image of a Celtiberic inscription (from Sasamn, Burgos) that reads:

GUIRRORTIKIEZNEBEIDUUKOZBETINAIOZ (I transcribed it trying to aproximate to modern Basque writing, where Z is not the TH of Spanish but rather closer to English Z). It sounds like somehow Basque to me but also some Iberian texts do. Still translating them with Basque only is near impossible.

Just to make a try:
GU                   We
IRRORRTIKI       ?
EZ                    not
NE                    I (NI) ?
BEIDU              ? (verb? most Basque verbs end in -TU)
UKOZ               by renounciation (?)
BETI                 always
NAIOZ              ? (auxiliar verb - if NAIZ = I am)

Can you put this together. Were Celtiberians actually Basque-speakers? Or were these peoples (probably Autrigonians) actually Basques and not Caltiberians as the book claims.

Can't say.
Back to Top
Kuu-ukko View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 02-Dec-2004
Location: Finland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204 		  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 08:07
Celtiberian is a Celtic language. The only found relative language of Basque was Aquitanian, in south-west France.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 08:42
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Celtiberian is a Celtic language. The only found relative language of Basque was Aquitanian, in south-west France.


I know that's the only confirmed truth. Still mistery remains about Ibero-Basque possible relationship and someone in a previous post commented that it may had some relationship so I tried to ilustrate the difficulties of such hypothesis.

In any case it is clear that:
a) Tartessian (South and Southwest) doesn't sound like any known language
b) Iberian (Iberians?) (SE and East) do sound some like Basque at least in some inscriptions but this "sound like" hasn't been yet corroborated by any succesful translation using Basque.
c) Some northern tribes considered by some to be Celtic, like Autrigonians, could well be Basque and that could be the case of that inscription (just as hypothesis, I don't know where exactly lies Sasamn, if in ancient Autrigonian, Celtiberian or Vaccean territory - I'd have to check that first).
d) It seems it's not clear that Celtiberians (not all Celts of Iberia but just Celtiberians of the Iberian Mountains, Numantia, etc.) spoke Celtic, berian or a hybrid tongue.

Edition: I've found where Sasamn lays: in the historically know border between Celts and Cantabrians (who may well have spoken Basque, as it's known that they helped the Aquitanians against Caesar on reasons of being "relatives").



Edited by Maju
Back to Top
Pelayo View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 31-Jul-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Pelayo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 23:36
cerveza - celti-iberain spanish word.
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 13:46
I've found (in Wikipedia mostly) some interesting stuff on Celtiberian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_language.



This is a typical example of Celtiberian written in Iberian script (from Botorrita). I guess they would use Eastern Iberian script which is:


So, if you know some Gaelic and want to work hard, try to transcribe and then translate whatever they wrote in that plaque.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.076 seconds.