Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Mughal Empire: Turkish or Indian?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Mughal Empire: Turkish or Indian?
    Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 21:43
Originally posted by aditya

mughals were never masters of indians . they simply were a makeshift type of arrangement.tehy were not able to take a simple step without help o findian states .  just because of their being so weak rulers , they could not leave any great impression on indian society .  moreover they took muslims back by thousands of years that mughal word has become synonmous with illetracy, barbarismand backwardness in india. .


weak foreign overlords


I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jul-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 646
  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 06:20
Aditya.

The word Mughal was transformed into the word Mogul in the English language, meaning someone who is in a high up position.
As in a Business Tycoon = Business Mogul.
So to make stupid statements will get you nowhere.

Since when the hell did Indians allow themselves to be ruled by foreigners? Oh, im sorry, i forgot the British Empire as well.

Krishna: You know what, I have an idea.
Dev: What idea Krishna?
Krishna: How 'bout we let these foreign Turks rule over us for 600 years?
Dev:Niiiiicccccccceeeeee. Good thinking. That way we can go "backwards" 1000 years, so everyone from Europe and China would want to visit us.

What can be summed up is that besides the Rajput and Jat tribes, Indians cant fight. The only way they know to fight is starve themselves to the brink of death in order to shame their overlords. ala Gandhi.
Mughal e Azam
Back to Top
AP Singh View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 283
  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 15:12
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

They werent Indian, but they were your masters for centuries. Like the previous turkic states
 
Indians were also Masters of Central asia during the time of Kushans and theory of Aryan migration frokm India to Georgia and to Germany is true.
By the way who were eralier Turks?
Mahmud Gazni was never the emperor of India and took advantage of the infighting among the erstwhile fuedatories of Gurjar- Pratihar empire but certainly these Turkik slaves of earstwhile Baghdad Caliphate were having upper hand for certain period since they started uniting people of different tribes in the name of religion.
Ghori and for that purpose people of Ghor were Hindus at the time of the Gaznavi. 
I would like to know how the descendents of Gengis Khan and Halaku of Budhist religion embraced Islam?
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 16:55

Indians were masters of C Asia? In what LSD induced dream did that occur in?

Back to Top
Suren View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Chieftain

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1673
  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 18:09
Originally posted by Sparten

Indians were masters of C Asia? In what LSD induced dream did that occur in?



I second that.Wink
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 19:01
And to answer the topic question: Of course the Mughal empire was Indian (as in belonging to Indian culture), Turkey was not formed until the 20th century, so how could it be Turkish???  As for the Mughals dynasty, it can be said they had Turkic founders but they didn't exactly have Turkic culture when they settled in India proper.


Edited by Zagros - 23-Jun-2008 at 19:02
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 19:10
As I said before. It depend on when you ask about the dynasty. Babur was deinatly Turkic, as were his successors, though Farsi was their language this changed esp after 1736 and Nadir Shah's invasion. At the end it was clearly Indian.
Back to Top
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 20:20
hmm thats proably the fate of any Turkic Empire

they get assimilated into the local culture, well partialy

ps I want some of what Sighn is snorting

Edited by xi_tujue - 23-Jun-2008 at 20:22
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jul-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 646
  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 03:07
Singh

Indians never "ruled" central asia, but their culture did mesh with local SE Asian cultures to create a Hindic culture in Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, etc.
If anything, before Turkicization, India was Persianized.




Edited by Mughal e Azam - 24-Jun-2008 at 03:10
Mughal e Azam
Back to Top
AP Singh View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 283
  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 06:44
Originally posted by Mughal e Azam

Singh

Indians never "ruled" central asia, but their culture did mesh with local SE Asian cultures to create a Hindic culture in Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, etc.
If anything, before Turkicization, India was Persianized.


 
During Kushan Empire the Indian extended their empire up Georgia. Kushan is a Gotra (clan ) Of Gurjars and are called Kasana now a days. They are said to descendents of Kush, the elder son of lord Rama.
 
The Gurjars  Kushans were defeated by the Huns and that time the Georgia and India ( of course undivided India and that was complete present day India, Pakistan and afghanistan)were isolated. In 8th. century the Gurjar Pratihars ( the descendents of Laxmana defeated the Hunas under Mihir Bhoja the Great and Huns were assimilated among one of the clans of Gurjara. ( see Gwalior inscription).
 
In the present day Uzbekistan also ( the motherland of Babar) you may still find places like Guzar and kasan. The Indian literature was destroyed later my Muslim invaders who were almost illiterate as compared to Indians who were good mathematicians even at that time and FYI the zero was invented in India during this Gurjara Empire. Had Uzbekistan not isolated from India due the invasions of Huns, the Babar and also Akbar would not have been illiterate human being? 
 
In Georgia there are still Shiva temples confirming the presence Indian Empire and also Gurjara in persian called Jujaria which is nothing but present Georgia and that was the route of Aryans migration  to Germany from India, which can be confirmed by influence of Sanskrit on German language and also the sign of Swastic used by Germans which is considered auspicious in India even today.   
 
 
Back to Top
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919
  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 06:50
^The Kushan Empire was founded by the Yuezhi a Iranian Tribe from Central Asia


I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
AP Singh View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 283
  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 06:56
Originally posted by Suren

Originally posted by Sparten

Indians were masters of C Asia? In what LSD induced dream did that occur in?



I second that.Wink
During Kushan Empire the Indian extended their empire up Georgia. Kushan is a Gotra (clan ) Of Gurjars and are called Kasana now a days. They are said to descendents of Kush, the elder son of lord Rama.
 
The Gurjars  Kushans were defeated by the Huns and that time the Georgia and India ( of course undivided India and that was complete present day India, Pakistan and afghanistan)were isolated. In 8th. century the Gurjar Pratihars ( the descendents of Laxmana defeated the Hunas under Mihir Bhoja the Great and Huns were assimilated among one of the clans of Gurjara. ( see Gwalior inscription).
 
In the present day Uzbekistan also ( the motherland of Babar) you may still find places like Guzar and kasan. The Indian literature was destroyed later my Muslim invaders and that is the reason we have to depend on the named placed after the Indian Empires and the influence of their language and culture in those regions. Had Uzbekistan not isolated from India due the invasions of Huns and remained under control of Indians, the Babar and also Akbar would not have been the unfortunate illiterate people. 
 
In Georgia there are still Shiva temples confirming the presence Indian Empire and also Gurjara in persian called Jujaria which is nothing but present Georgia and that was the route of Aryans migration  to Germany from India, which can be confirmed by influence of Sanskrit on German language and also the sign of Swastic used by Germans which is considered auspicious in India even today.   
 
Back to Top
AP Singh View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 283
  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 07:25
Even during the days of Gurjara Pratihars were in full control of Afghanistan. It was only after the Gurjar Chauhans, one of the their own clan of Gurjara- Pratihars asserted its own independence and captured the price Salwan of Delhi of another Gurjara clan Tanwar. It was in 954AD when the fight of these Gurjara clan started and Mahmud took advantage of these infightings to its full advantage and attacked shahi Khatana Jai Pal. Khatan in India was a name for place beyond Kabul and rulers of that place Khatanas. You will still find lot of Gurjara Khatans in present day pakistan and Afghnaistan.
 
Here is the historical record showing the Gurjara domination in the 10th. century an present day Afghanistan region.
 
 
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/hhrmi/ch2.htm

Arab travellers to India of the 10th century �all speak of only two independent Arab principalities with Multan and Mansurah as their capitals�. The Pratihara kings waged constant war �against the Arab prince of Multan, and with the Mussalmans, his subjects on the frontier�. Multan would have been lost by the Arabs but for a Hindu temple. Dr. Misra quotes Al-Istakhri who wrote about AD 951 that in Multan �there is an idol held in great veneration by the Hindus and every year people from distant parts undertake pilgrimages to it� When the Indians make war upon them and endeavour to seize the idol, the inhabitants [Arabs] bring it out pretending that they will break it and burn it. Upon this the Indians retire, otherwise they would destroy Multan.� Finally, he observes: �Thus after three centuries of unremitting effort, we find the Arab dominion in India limited to two petty states of Multan and Mansurah. And here, too, they could exist only after renouncing their iconoclastic zeal and utilizing the idols for their own political ends. It is a very strange sight to see them seeking shelter behind the very budds, they came here to destroy
Back to Top
AP Singh View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 283
  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 07:46
Originally posted by Mughal e Azam

Aditya.

The word Mughal was transformed into the word Mogul in the English language, meaning someone who is in a high up position.
As in a Business Tycoon = Business Mogul. 
 
But in the birth place of Babar the the word Mughal is still not used in that sence. They still use the Czar for that purpose which nothing but Gurjara. The Gurjara of Sanskrit in persian also called as Juzr which is further changed to Czar and it is further confirmation of Indian Gurjar Kushan empire on Central Asia. 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 08:11

I shudder to type this but, Singh Sahib, cite please?

Back to Top
Suren View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Chieftain

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1673
  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 08:55
Originally posted by AP Singh

Originally posted by Mughal e Azam

Aditya.

The word Mughal was transformed into the word Mogul in the English language, meaning someone who is in a high up position.
As in a Business Tycoon = Business Mogul. 
 
But in the birth place of Babar the the word Mughal is still not used in that sence. They still use the Czar for that purpose which nothing but Gurjara. The Gurjara of Sanskrit in persian also called as Juzr which is further changed to Czar and it is further confirmation of Indian Gurjar Kushan empire on Central Asia. 


Citation Plz.

I speak Persian and I know we call them Gujars and their state as Gujarat.
juzr is not persian.
Back to Top
Suren View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Chieftain

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1673
  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 09:31
Originally posted by AP Singh

Originally posted by Suren

Originally posted by Sparten

Indians were masters of C Asia? In what LSD induced dream did that occur in?



I second that.Wink
During Kushan Empire the Indian extended their empire up Georgia. Kushan is a Gotra (clan ) Of Gurjars and are called Kasana now a days. They are said to descendents of Kush, the elder son of lord Rama.
 
The Gurjars  Kushans were defeated by the Huns and that time the Georgia and India ( of course undivided India and that was complete present day India, Pakistan and afghanistan)were isolated. In 8th. century the Gurjar Pratihars ( the descendents of Laxmana defeated the Hunas under Mihir Bhoja the Great and Huns were assimilated among one of the clans of Gurjara. ( see Gwalior inscription).
 
In the present day Uzbekistan also ( the motherland of Babar) you may still find places like Guzar and kasan. The Indian literature was destroyed later my Muslim invaders and that is the reason we have to depend on the named placed after the Indian Empires and the influence of their language and culture in those regions. Had Uzbekistan not isolated from India due the invasions of Huns and remained under control of Indians, the Babar and also Akbar would not have been the unfortunate illiterate people. 
 
In Georgia there are still Shiva temples confirming the presence Indian Empire and also Gurjara in persian called Jujaria which is nothing but present Georgia and that was the route of Aryans migration  to Germany from India, which can be confirmed by influence of Sanskrit on German language and also the sign of Swastic used by Germans which is considered auspicious in India even today.   
 


1. Kushan were related to Tocharian not Indians.
2. They never ruled far than Afghanistan. (not Georgia for sure)
3. Persian name for Georgian is Gorji not Jujar or Gurjar. In Persian we do have G so we don't call Gurjara as jurjara or whatever you are trying to convince us.
4. The theory of migration of Indo-European from India is not acceptable outside of India and Indian history books.
5. Swastika is not an Indian sigh, but an Indo-European luck charm.
6. Please stop connecting yourself to germans by any nonsence Idea...I don't know why people want to be german by any chance.Wink 

This is an article about Kushans. They were defeated by Persians and their vassals Kidarites. Huns defeated the Kidarites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan

After the death of Vasudeva I in 225, the Kushan empire split into western and eastern halves. The Western Kushans (in Afghanistan) were soon subjugated by the Persian Sassanid Empire and lost Bactria and other territories. In 248 they were defeated again by the Persians, who deposed the Western dynasty and replaced them with Persian vassals known as the Kushanshas (or Indo-Sassanids).

The Eastern Kushan kingdom was based in the Punjab. Around 270 their territories on the Gangetic plain became independent under local dynasties such as the Yaudheyas. Then in the mid 4th century they were subjugated by the Gupta Empire under Samudragupta.

In 360 a Kushan vassal named Kidara overthrew the old Kushan dynasty and established the Kidarite Kingdom. The Kushan style of Kidarite coins indicates they considered themselves as Kushans. The Kidarite seem to have been rather prosperous, although on a smaller scale than their Kushan predecessors.

These remnants of the Kushan empire were ultimately wiped out in the 5th century by the invasions of the White Huns, and later the expansion of Islam.




Edited by Suren - 24-Jun-2008 at 09:36
Back to Top
AP Singh View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 05-Sep-2006
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 283
  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 10:01
WIKI is not an authentic source to quote and you may not get the same contents at the site in the evening today, which you have quoted in the morning. You may search Google by putting Gujjar, Kushans and General Cunnigham together and you will find enough details of Kushasn ( written as Yuechi in chinese) to be of Gurjara origin( written as Ku-chelo in chinese history).
In Persian history the Georgia is also written as Gorjistan which Gurjarsthan in sanskrit and hence Georgia is named after Gurjara Kushans. I dont know abcd of persian language but one thing is sure that every language changes its shape and character if you walk 10 kilometers away from one place to another and you can not say that persian languange remained constant allover.
We are not connecting with the Germans but even today there is lot of research going on on Sanskrit language in German finding their roots. The Swastika sign is still must in all the Hindu Pujas in India and you may see it even on the clothing used by priests in all the temples.
 
The Kushan Empire was destroyed by the Huns who more barbaric like Mongols, in a similar fashion the Baghdad caliphate was sacked by Halaku, the grandson of Gengiskhan, a mongol. Even on Mogols you can not deny the Indian influence since till the time of Halaku, they were of Budhist religion otherwise Halaku would not have killed 6 millon muslim scholars in a single day at the time of sack of Baghdad. I would not like to write again that the Budhist religion originated and spread all over from India only.
 
Probably, the Mughals were also barbaric since they inherited the genes from the invading Mongols since it is well known fact Mongols raped  a large number of  women during their  winning conquests.
 
The similarity of Gujjars and Mongols are that both of these warriors had best of cavalry. The historians today became habitual to read and write the history in the perspective seen today write both of these tribes as sheperds but to take care of animals horses , to train them and to have a good uderstanding animal-man relationship was part of cavalry. In todays world also one has to see and study the lifestyle of these tribes and many of the descendents of these tribes are still surviving on their livestock and taking best out of the traning given to them by their ancestors. That is the reason the complete milk supply of China is from Mongolia, and in India and Pakistan is from Gujjar dominated areas.
 
The Gujjars were not civilised being an Indian tribe and were not barbaric like Huns and Mongols and that where they were defeated since they never expected that kind of treatment from any human race, which was sure inhuman.


Edited by AP Singh - 24-Jun-2008 at 10:39
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 10:35

The Mongols were'nt alone in celebrating their victory with the local fauna. Lots of others did that as well until the 20th century. Which is why conscription had to be introduced no doubt, half the attraction was gone.

 

Back to Top
Suren View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Chieftain

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1673
  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 10:42
Ruling line descended from the Yuezhi, a people that ruled over most of the northern Indian subcontinent, Afghanistan, and parts of Central Asia during the first three centuries of the Christian era

After the rise of the Sāsānian dynasty in Iran and of local powers in northern India, Kushān rule declined.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/325483/Kushan-dynasty

I am sorry to disappoint you about connection between Gurjars and Georgian. It is not related because there is no document or artifact which support your Idea. Beside Georgian call themselves Kartvili not Gorji.

About the thread question: I think the Mughals were Turkic at least at the beginning (Babur, his son and grandson)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.