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Did Basil II deserve the alias Bulgar Slayer?
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Hellios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Basil II deserve the alias Bulgar Slayer?
    Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 17:08
Did Basil II really deserve the alias "Bulgar Slayer" or not?
 
Thanks. 
 
 
 


Edited by Hellios - 31-Dec-2006 at 02:34
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 05:15

I think the answer is yes. Another thing is that different people have different understanding of this alias Wink

I found that he was canonized:

 
What did he do for the Church and Christianity? Defeated Satanail's armies? Big smile How is it sound in Greek Church: "St. Basil the Bulgar Slayer"? Or just "St.Basil"? 
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Patrinos View Drop Down
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Posts: 473 		  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 04:24
Anton other ages then,different mentalities.
Just to say an "excuse"(there isn't but...) it was the law then to punish with his way the subjects of the Empire who rebeled...And I think Bulgaria then wasn't independent...right?
At least he haven't killed citizens...
Question:Have these Fyromians ever claimed him?He was Macedonian.

    

Edited by Patrinos - 11-Dec-2006 at 04:25
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Of course they did! And they call the war between him and Tsar Samuil a "civil war"! Tongue
Anyway, I'm not sure if Bulgaroktonos/Bulgar-slayer is absolutely right. As far as I know, he was given this name for blinding 14 000 men of Samuil's forces. And atlhough blinding so many men could have a catastrophic effect in economical aspect, it's not really killing or slaying. But nevertheless, Bulgar-slayer sounds better than Bulgar-blinder, right? Wink

Btw, I wonder one thing: For most people Basil II is the greatest emperor of Byzantium. And he fought many enemies in many places, not only with the Bulgarians. But why is he called exactly Bulgar-slayer and not Norman-slayer or something? Why was his victory over Samuil probably one of the greatest things of his rule?
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 14:31
Hi Anton.
 
Originally posted by Anton

I think the answer is yes.
 
Ok, thanks.
 
 
Originally posted by Anton

Another thing is that different people have different understanding of this alias Wink 
 
It's a hefty alias.
 
 
Originally posted by Anton

I found that he was canonized: 
 
Agreed.
 
 
Originally posted by Anton

What did he do for the Church and Christianity? Defeated Satanail's armies? Big smile 
 
Perhaps he helped the Church expand but through very questionable methods. Wink
 
 
Originally posted by Anton

 How is it sound in Greek Church: "St. Basil the Bulgar Slayer"? Or just "St. Basil"?
 
"Basil II the Bulgar Slayer = Βασίλειος Β΄ Βουλγαροκτόνος or Basileios II Boulgaroktonos." 


Edited by Hellios - 11-Dec-2006 at 14:32
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 15:08
Hi NikeBG. Smile
 
Originally posted by NikeBG

Of course they did! And they call the war between him and Tsar Samuil a "civil war"! Tongue 
 
LOL
 
 
Originally posted by NikeBG

Anyway, I'm not sure if Bulgaroktonos/Bulgar-slayer is absolutely right. As far as I know, he was given this name for blinding 14 000 men of Samuil's forces. And atlhough blinding so many men could have a catastrophic effect in economical aspect, it's not really killing or slaying. But nevertheless, Bulgar-slayer sounds better than Bulgar-blinder, right? Wink 
 
Nasty.  (blinding 14,000 men).  Do you think it's true? Dead
 
 
Originally posted by NikeBG

Btw, I wonder one thing: For most people Basil II is the greatest emperor of Byzantium.
 
Probably because "under his reign, the Byzantine Empire reached its greatest height in nearly 5 centuries"?
 
 
Originally posted by NikeBG

And he fought many enemies in many places, not only with the Bulgarians.
 
Yes, the list of campaigns is long & varied; he fought Asians, Arabs, Bulgarians, Khazars, Persians, etc.
 
 
Originally posted by NikeBG

But why is he called exactly Bulgar-slayer and not Norman-slayer or something? Why was his victory over Samuil probably one of the greatest things of his rule?
 
I've seen sources refer to Samuil as his "greatest adversary".  Apparently, Samuil had kept Basil II's predecessor from conquering all of Bulgaria, from where Samuil was "raiding Byzantine lands".  Supposedly, Samuil achieved some strategic victories (over Basil II) where Basil had to flee. LOL
 
"The subsequent victories over the Bulgarians and Serbs fulfilled one of Basil's goals, as the empire regained its ancient Danube River frontier for the first time in 400 years.  Before returning to Constantinople, Basil II celebrated his triumphs in Athens." 


Edited by Hellios - 11-Dec-2006 at 15:14
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 15:38
Well I agree with Patrinos that time was different. It seems that in his time those methods were not questionable. What I am wondering about is the following. Usually saints are patrons (protectors) of different people united by profession or name or something else. Whom is St. Basileos Voulgaroktonos patron (protector) of? Tongue 
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 19:40
The thing is that a great many Byzantine rulers were made saints simply for what their subjects considered to be a good job of ruling. The very first Byzantine ruler, Constantine I, was of course canonised. Then there is Maurice, Irene, etc etc. I guess this is one of the less likable aspects of Byzantine culture, making their Emperors into demi-gods.

Basil II was not an evil man, he simply did what he had to to most effectively pacify his Balkan territories. He never showed unkindness to the Bulgars after their submission in 1018, he treated them like proper subjects. He even allowed them ot pay take in goods rather than money, which he knew would be too difficult for them after such a long and costly war.
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Posts: 407 		  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 01:09
Originally posted by Anton

Whom is St. Basileos Voulgaroktonos patron (protector) of? Tongue 


Protector of the blind men DeadTongue
(u wanted to hear it ,didn't u?Smile)

This incident is well recorded:By 2 Arab chronicle writters (14.000 -15.000)(it's hard to remember arab names!)
and also by Kekaumenos (15.000) (i m not sure about Skylitzes)

In fact "Voulyaroktonos"=Bulgarian-killer /not slayer.
Basil defeated many other enemies,but he crushed and conquered all Bulgaria ,which was a thorn in the ass of the Empire.
That's why i think,his nickname is focused on Bulgaria-not because of the blinding.



Edited by Brainstorm - 12-Dec-2006 at 01:11
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 02:34
Originally posted by Brainstorm

Protector of the blind men DeadTongue
(u wanted to hear it ,didn't u?Smile)
 
No I didn't want to read that. If you are serious then I am shocked. I would say he should be protector of ripers or killers Wink
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Posts: 407 		  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 03:12
So what would be Krum?
Protector of the drinkers maybe.. (u know the skull-cup Wink)
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 03:16
I don't think any of you would have noticed this discussion, but in it we discussed in depth the ethical basis of Basil II's actions. Please take a read through, even though some individual posts may be rather long.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8248&KW=Basil
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Hellios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 04:45
Thanks Constantine XI, that's a good thread.  I just read the 1st page & will read the rest after breakfast.
 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 07:14
Originally posted by Brainstorm

So what would be Krum?
Protector of the drinkers maybe.. (u know the skull-cup Wink)
 
You search in wrong direction. What Krum did is nothing comparing to how Simeon treated Madjar civilians. That was awfull. Really nothing to be proud of.
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Hellios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 11:10
Dear Anton, Patrinos, NikeBG, Constantine XI, and Brainstorm,
 
The image posted by Anton shows some canonization, also mentioned in these statements:
 
Originally posted by Anton

How is it sound in Greek Church: "St. Basil the Bulgar Slayer"? Or just "St. Basil"? 
Originally posted by Anton

Whom is St. Basileos Voulgaroktonos patron (protector) of? 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

The thing is that a great many Byzantine rulers were made saints simply for what their subjects considered to be a good job of ruling.
 
My dad claims that Basil II was never truly given the title "saint", and now I'm confused.  He said the only "Saint" Basil he knows of is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Basil
 
I just did some more quick searches on Basil II (3 sources) and none of them use the term "Saint".
 
Anyhow, my dad challenged me to prove (show evidence) that Basil II was truly given the title. LOL  I might look into it further; maybe not.  I have a feeling Basil II was not "officially" declared a Saint.  Clarifications welcomed.


Edited by Hellios - 12-Dec-2006 at 11:13
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 11:26
Hellios, I might be wrong. I just saw his picture in wiki with a nimb (halo), so I made a conclusion that he was canonized. Look in some list of Saints of Greek church...

Edited by Anton - 12-Dec-2006 at 11:29
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Posts: 407 		  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 12:11
Originally posted by Anton

Hellios, I might be wrong. I just saw his picture in wiki with a nimb (halo), so I made a conclusion that he was canonized. Look in some list of Saints of Greek church...


Come on Anton..!and i thought he was a saint for a moment!
All Emperors are depicted with halo-and they were not canonized.
It's a sign that Emperor is representing Christ/God on Earth.

I think apart from Constantine (who also made terrible murders) also Constantine Paleologos the last emperor is recently announced as a saint/martyr-but i m not 100% sure about it.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 13:26
Come on Anton..!and i thought he was a saint for a moment!
All Emperors are depicted with halo-and they were not canonized.
It's a sign that Emperor is representing Christ/God on Earth.
 
I didn't know that, but I should have known. Thanks for the info!
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  Quote Air Jordan 13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2011 at 04:02

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Originally posted by Air Jordan +13

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