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Feramez
Colonel
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Topic: Hazara and Pan-Turk Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:07 |
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For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
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TRK DNYASI Forum, join today.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:43 |
Mongols, according to history, when first arrived to Afghanistan, faced a group of Mongoloids who'd already been there. That's what Bulldog explains.
Edited by gok_toruk - 14-Nov-2006 at 13:31
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Bulldog
Caliph
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Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 20:14 |
Turk Shahi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turk_shahi
The Hinaya Buddhist tradition made envoys into Central Asia and some Turkic tribes converted to Buddhism, the Turk Shahi's adopted it as early as 3 century BCE.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 02:58 |
"The Parthian dynasty fell about 75 AD to another horde from Central Asia. Kushans, a Turkish type people known as Yueh-Chih in China moved from Central Asia to Bactria, where they stayed for a century. Around 75 AD, one of the tribe Kushan under the leadership of Kujula Kadphises gained control of Gandhara and other part of present Pakistan"
Kushan Turkish type people. Can Kushan and Hazara be related here.
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 13:38 |
Well, Yue-Chihs were Caucaid. As far as I know, Yue-Chis were later called Tokharians. They're the so-called Iranian population of Central Asia. And if Kushans are somehow related to them, if they're not their descendants, well then Hazaras, being Asiatic has got nothing to do with them.
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 19:51 |
gok-turk my dear turkmen brother:
why does race matters so much? why does people's look matters so much? What happened to you in turkmenistan???
someone discriminated you or what???
you seem want to convince people that this whole world is mongoloid...
*Laugh*
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oghuzkb
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Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 13:14 |
Hi Great Kushan,
Good to know that:-)
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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature. ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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barbar
General
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Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 07:43 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Well, Yue-Chihs were Caucaid. As far as I know, Yue-Chis were later called Tokharians. They're the so-called Iranian population of Central Asia. And if Kushans are somehow related to them, if they're not their descendants, well then Hazaras, being Asiatic has got nothing to do with them. |
Take a look at other discussions about Kushans. It has been repeated many times. Yuechi were not Iranian stock.
If current day Hazaras are livinig in the lands of the ancient Kushans, there is no reason to deny their relationship with these locals, while you can't provide any historical proof that these locals were forced to move or slayed. Furthermore, Current day Hazaras are not totally mongoloid.
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Either make a history or become a history.
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Maziar
Chieftain
Arteshbod
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Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 09:55 |
Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans.
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oghuzkb
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Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 04:41 |
Originally posted by Maziar
Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans. |
Well, if so, where did they migrate from?
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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature. ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 19:05 |
Hazara people lived in feudalism system until one hundred years ago. Hazara people has long history of living in mud built houses in villages. Hazara people has long history of agriculture and tradations.
I have not read anymore to say Hazara people were nomadic.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 06:59 |
'Dated Kushana Inscriptions, Satya Shrava'
'The Armies of Bactria , Valerii.P.Nikonorov'
The name Kushan is derived from the term Guishang, used in Chinese historical writings to describe one branch of the nomadic people, called Yuezhi or Yuechi. These nomads who were of Indo-European stock, roamed the northwestern China but during 176-160 BC, they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu
There is evidence both from the mummies and Chinese writings that many of them had blonde or red hair and blue eyes, characteristics also found in present-day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan and Central Asia, due to the populations' high genetic diversity. This suggests the possibility that they were part of an early migration of speakers of Eastern Irannic Languages.
By the way, a normal Hazara is a good example of the Northern Mongoloid population. Ofcourse, for instance, they grew more facial hair than Central Asians, but they're, to a very high degree and uniformly Mongoloid.
Edited by gok_toruk - 30-Nov-2006 at 07:04
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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explorer6
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Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 14:28 |
Kushans were Buddhists whose admistrative writings were in Prakrit and
who translated religious texts into Sanskrit. Nobody knows for
sure what language they spoke in Central Asia. Some of their coins had
Greek inscriptions and pics of Greek gods.
Voice of the Ancestors
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barbar
General
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Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 01:21 |
Originally posted by Maziar
Yes, the Yuechi Tocharinas were Indo-europeans, but not iranic. Hazaras was first time migrated to Afghanistan at the 12th century, and they are not the descendants of Kushans. |
Maziar, can we say Iranians are not the decendants of the early locals of Iran before Aryan migration? if a group of people migrate into a place they definately mix with the locals, if both parts are quite significant, we can find clear genetic and cultural elements from both parts (in the case of Hazara), then how can we exclude any of them from their ancestral line?
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Either make a history or become a history.
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AFG-PaShTuN
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Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 07:00 |
Man we've had enough of your childish complaints, you, Hazaras, and the rest of your comrades, Tajiks, Uzbeks and all put all the blmae on us Pashtuns for wahetever situation you guys are in right now, Grow up, read history, Afghanistan had never been damaged that severely as it was by the ancestors of the Hazara people [Mongols], you guys shouldn't even complain, our cities were razed to grounds by your people, we don't say nothing, but every forum i go to, i see the BS by you guys about us Pashtuns, as if we are the only devils and wrong doers in Afghanistan.
By the way, to clear your confusion, Kushans werent' Hazara, the Buddhas weren't built by Hazara, they were built by the Kushans, an Aryan Tribe that assimilated with the rest of the Aryanic Tribes, collectively known as Pashtuns or ethnic Afghans.
Peace
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barbar
General
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Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 17:49 |
Originally posted by AFG-PaShTuN
By the way, to clear your confusion, Kushans werent' Hazara, the Buddhas weren't built by Hazara, they were built by the Kushans, an Aryan Tribe that assimilated with the rest of the Aryanic Tribes, collectively known as Pashtuns or ethnic Afghans.
Peace
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Who are Hazaras then? Did the Mongol troups come with their wives to this land, and killed all the locals?
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Either make a history or become a history.
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Afghanan
Chieftain
Durr e Durran
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Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:16 |
I would just like to clarify. The Buddha statues were not built during the reign of the Kushans, but the Ephtalites..who were ironically anti-Buddhists initially.
The Mongols killed every living being in Bamian, including, dogs and cats and lined their heads up in mounds.
The Hazaras are said to be descendants of the Mongol armies, not Genghis Khan. The Mongol armies were made up of many different Turkic tribes as well as Mongols. Bamian was setup as a garrison town for the Mongols and when the Mongols were eventually amalgamated with the rest of Persia and Central Asia, the Mongol hordes remained in Bamian, where they eventually converted to Shiite Islam.
Genetic studies have proven that they have Mongolian and Turkic ancestry. Hazaras today are prevalent in every city in Afghanistan and have intermarried with every ethnic group. My mother's grandmother infact, was a Hazara from Ghazni.
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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
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Afghanan
Chieftain
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Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 22:35 |
Here is a quick summary of events from the Kushans to the
Muslim conquest.
As for the Kushans, they are remnants of the Greater Yue-Chih, or the Tocharians. They were not Mongols, but Eastern Iranian speaking nomads from China who were pushed out of their ancestral homes by the Huns. They were followed by other Scythian nomads who were also fleeing the Huns and eventually swept over the Semi Hellenic city states in Afghanistan and made their empire there. They converted to Buddhism and were responsible for many of the caves that are in "Gharchistan" or Bamian.
They were defeated and swept over the Kitharites (Huns) and then finally by the Ephtalite Huns. The Ephtalite Huns have a mysterious past but are said to be remnants of the Tocharians and had cultural traditions similar to the Massagatae Saka. They ruled Afghanistan and eventually converted to Buddhism and Hinduism. Hinduism eventually won out in Eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar and Taxila, but Buddhism was still strong in Bamian where the Buddhist monk went to visit and noticed the Giant Buddha Statues.
The Ephtalites had various wars with the Sassanian Persians and Turks, some of which they won, some of which they lost, but eventually they were overrun by a joint Turk-Sassanian attack and were dispersed.
--
Most of the information is from History of Central Asia, compied by UNESCO and historical departments from various universites across Central Asia, South Asia, and Europe.
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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
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Naimani
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Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 22:47 |
Originally posted by Great Kushan
Originally posted by mamikon
what
do you have any evidence behind the claim that Pashtuns shaved Buddha's face?
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I have a very clear evidence that the Bamiyan budddah has been destroyed little by little in the last 200 years since Pashtun come to power in Afghanistan. before 200 years it was a complete buddah body statue.
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^I thought everyone knew that.
I'm a Naiman Hazara, therefore I'm a Hazara too. I think we are more Mongoloid than Turkic now. Before the Great Mongol Empire, our ancestors were more Turks than Mongols in Hazarstan regions. But it was after the Mongol Empire when we became known as the 'Hazaras'. You guys know that the Mongol Empire was divided into four states. Hazaras are from the Chaghatai and Ilkhanates of Afghanistan and Iran.
Hazara acestors lived in Central Afghanistan for more than 2000 years. Kushans are also our Turkic ancestors. The reason why some people say that they were Indo-European is because they had many races in their army and government, they even had black looking people possibly Indians. But the high ranked Kushans were Kushan Turks who built the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
The Turanian armies kept increasing our numbers. Specially during and after the Great Mongolian Empire Hazara population became larger and larger. When our Mongol ancestors completely lost power, the defeted soldiers from Iran, Iraq and other cities returned to Hazarstan/Hazarajat.
An interesting fact is that some of our Hazara sub-clans are still called by their old names. For example Naiman, Besud and etc...Today if you go in Mongolia or Kazakhistan you can find many communities (tribes) who have the same names, but they are separated by small communities everywhere in Mongolia and Kazakhsiatn. Here are only some of the Kahlkh-Mongol tribes that exist in Mongolia:
1.Borjigon 2.Besud 3.Jalair 4.Hatagin 5.Olkhonud 6.Harnut 7.eljigin 8.bayaud 9.gorlos 10.darhad 11.Sharnud 12.Uriankhan 13.Chinos 14.Onkhod 15.Mangud 16.Torguud 17.Khereid 18.NAIMAN 19.Merged 20.Khibchag 21.SARTUUL 22.Tangud 23.Bashigad 24.Khirgis 25.Khasag 26.Uigar 27.Kharchin 28.Uuld 29.Ujeed 30.Jongoor 31.Khotogoid 32.Avga 33.Tugchin 34.Guchid 35.Khorchin 36.Khitad 38.Asud 39.Baatud 40.Barnud 41.Khuuchid 42.Khalbagad 43.Khangad 44.Jarangiinkhan 45.Togoruutan 46.Khard 47.Khorkhoi nudten 48.Buurluud 49.Khavchig 50.Bulagachid 51.Gozuul 52.Uzuun 53.Echeed 54.Khavkhchin 55.Orovgod 56.Tavnag 57.Khaakhar 57.Khunguud 58.Burged 59.Khuitserleg 60.Chutsuut 61.Ulanguud 62.Ezen 63.Undgaa 64.Gahan 65.Aksakal 67.Zuun shuvuuchin 68.Zaaruud 69.Dalandaganad 70.Tsagaan zel 71.Khar zel 72.Khariad 73.Daartan 74.Barchuul 75.Gerchuud 76.Baachuud 77.Buuchuud 78.Khuluud 79.Basigid 80.Tsookhor 81.Khiitluud 82.Gal 83.Motoi 84.Tele 85.Sood 86.Mankhilag 87.Khamnigan 88.Taijiud 89.Tsakhar 90.Soloon 91.Khoid 92.barga 93.Tsoros 94.Talas 95.Baarin 96.Alag aduun 97.Saljud 98.Uvashi 99.Uneged 100.Asan(esen) 101.Uuhan 102.uush 103.Tsoor 104.Jalaid 105.Zaisanguud 106.Zurchid 107.Sunid 108.Tatar 109.Tuuhai 110.Usun 111.khalkha 112.khandgai 113.khangin 114.Khiad 115.Khoton 116.khurlad 117.Tsagaan 118.Nirun 119.durved 120.baatar 121.Zelme 122.Tuved 123.Tavuud 124.Khoshuud 125.barlas 126.Urad 127.yamaat
As you can see there are Naimans and Besuds still in Mongolia. But in Hazarajat/Hazarstan areas today we also have Turkomens which were called Oghuz Turks in the ancient times. Also we have 'Jaghuries' who are the biggest the most ancient Hazara sub-clan. They were mainly Uyghur Turks, but after Oltan Khaan their name changed to 'Jaghuri'. They were good fighters, hard workers and also good horse riders. The name 'Jaghuri' is derived from the word 'Chau Quri' or 'Jau Quri' which was a position given to a direct ancestor of Chinggis Khaan who had to lead 100 Mongol soldiers, during Oltan Khaan. That's when they became known as Jaghuri people.
If we look back in the past, we don't see many differences between Mongols and Turks. They had same believes and culture. But Turks today specially Turks in Turkey, because of their geographical location, they tend to be more European and Middle-Eastern. We have Turks and Mongols in our Hazara tribe, we don't see any differences. I think the reason is because we give more value to the name 'Hazara' more than the smaller names such as jaghuri, Besud, Naiman, Turkoman and etc...
If you look at the any ancient sources, you cannot find the name 'Hazara' before the Mongol Empire. The reason is because they became known as the 'Hazara' during and after the Empire. Before that they were called buy different names. My point is that the people who are called Hazara today have more than 2000 years of history in Central Afghanistan. We are the Mongols and the ancient Turks of Afghanistan.
Edited by Naimani - 09-Jul-2007 at 23:08
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Jalair
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Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 20:26 |
Any link for the list? The list is comprised of Turkic and Mongol tribes, in fact most of them seems to be Turkic. Some of the tribes mentioned in the list are listed with Turkmen or Uzbek, currently we can find in Afghanistan. Here are some of them but there might be more:
Jalair Jalair
Hatagin Qataghan
eljigin Alchin
bayaud Baymaut
Onkhod Ongut
Khereid Kerait
NAIMAN Naiman
Merged Merket
Uigar Uighur
Khirgis Qirghiz
Khasag Qazaq
Kharchin Qarqin
Khibchag qipchaq Ujeed Jeed Khitad Khitai
Bulagachid bolaghichi
Uzuun Uishun
Echeed Jeed
Khuluud Khalaut
Tele Telew
Baarin Bakhrin
Saljud Chiljiut uush Uz
Tatar Tatar
Tuuhai Tumai
Usun Yuishun
khurlad Gurlat
barlas Barlas
Urad Uirat
yamaat Yamood
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Zarra
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