Does Greece have ottoman traces???

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim According to Sultan Selim the Grim, Ottomans aren't turks. Why not? Ask him, but when he captured Egypt he expressed the desire to "kill all the turks".

So who are the Turks actually? Then why did Ottomans referred after 18th century themselfs as "Turks" (bcuz before that date ethnicity whasnt a subject in the world)?
Why whas it a must for Ottoman padishah's to know the story's of Dede korkut?

Omar
The rulers of Egypt were the Mamlukes, who were turks. It is them that Selim specifically wanted to kill, although it is odd that - if he identified himself as a turk - that he would say "kill all the turks" and not be more specific with "kill all the mamlukes". In addition, apparently Selim always refered to his subjects as Ottomans, and never turks. I'd be interested to know what language he said it in, surely it must've been turkish

Mamlukes is a pollitical name as Ottoman is, ethnically the rulers of both states were Turks. Selim's aim was to take out the rulers of the Mamluks so it's natural for him to make such comments as there the people he's aiming to take out.    

Also, where did he apparently say this? is there a written transcript, did he write this himself anywhere, what is the source?



Omar
The people of eastern anatolia were refered to as turks (the white sheep turks, black sheep turks etc), the Mamlukes, slaves captured from the Caucassus and steppes were refered to as turks or ciracassians. But neither the Arabs, nor Selim refered to the western anatolians as turks. Selim used Ottoman, and the arabs used Roumi (Roman).

This is incorrect, AkKoyunlu and KaraKoyunlu wern't the only non-Ottoman Turkic states in the region, there was the Dulkadir's, Karamanlilar, AydinOgulari, Mentese in the West etc etc. Ottoman's were just like them initially a "Beylik". Ottoman's didn't just get rid of them, they married with them, gave brides to these Beyliks and kept them as regional rulers.

Ottoman's didn't differentiate between ethnics, nationalism etc wasn't an issue, you were Muslim or not Muslim. To the West all Muslims were Turks, it's a matter or perception and at what angle your looking at the issue.

Omar
As you say, Ethinicity wasn't important in 1500, its probable that the western muslim anatolians decided to call themselves turks, even though they were culturally and genetically not turkic, sometime between the 16th and 18th centuary. This makes much more sense to me, as modern anatolian turks are culturally almost identical to greeks (please don't kill me), but are quite separate from the Turkomans.

1. Genetics has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity, this has been established countless times in this forum.

2. Western Muslim Turks were Turks unless they converted they have fused Greek, Georgian, Assyrian culture into Turkic. Still today it is a region which still has Turkic Beylik-Clan culture, there are many Turkmen, Tahtaci villages and Nomadic and Semi-Nomadic Yoruk's.

3. Without visiting the area making such claims is nothing but a guess, if you were to visit areas like Aydin, Usak, Mugla, Kuhtaya, Afyon, Eskisehir, Manisa you would know this to be incorrect.

4. Turks culture did not adopt or take aspects of Greek Christian culture, simply for the fact that they were Christian so it was not in the interest of an Islamically minded society. They had cultural giving and taking with Arabs, Kurds, Persians and other muslim groups. To Turks, Roum culture was Christian culture, as Greeks were also a religously orientated society they did not mix too much with Turks. If your talking about aspects such as music, there are similarities from the Balkans to Central Asia, if your looking at cusine its natural for people for live next to each other to have similar food's as they have the same natural resources. Turks and Greeks non-religous culture did mix and fuse especially in cities because here they lived together, however, villages and towns stayed less fused. Also due to inter-marriage, conversions mixing occured.

5. Do you even know wher Turkmens live? do you know how many Turkmen villages and towns there are in Western Turkey? do you know how well they preserve their traditions and heritage?


Omar
- I'm not familar with Dede korkut.

If your not familiar with Dede Korkut how can you make such statements.


PS. Also Ottomans didn't fight like turks. At a time when a turk wouldn't be caught dead (literally) fighting without his horse, the Ottomans used infantry armies.

1. Ottoman's used Cavalry armies aswell and always had Cavalry regiments.

2. You look at the matter as if a nation is in a stagment state, as if they can't change aspects, do anything out of the stereotyped mould. Claiming Turks were simply just cavalry forces is nothing but a figment of stereotyping, if you do research you'll know Turks had infantry armies before the Ottomans aswell.
    
    

Edited by Bulldog - 01-Jan-2007 at 22:24

Omar
My source is John Glubb writing in Soliders of Fortune, he quotes directly from one of his primary sources - although I don't know which one.

Could you find the source because I've never come across this quote before, is he a historian with expertise in Middle-Eastern history or Islamic civillisation.

Omar
Clearly because I am reading a different book!

You cannot read one book and then make judgements.

If I read a book about Pakistan, even if I read hundreds, if I havn't been to Pakistan, lived and mixed with the locals and experienced the lifestyles, culture and traditions first hand then I personally will be just following what was written in the Books having no actual first-hand knowledge myself. Even if I read a thousand books about it, you'd still be able to explain the society, culture and lifestyle's better then me because who have lived it, experienced it grown up with it.


Omar
The first part contradicts the second. I agree with the second.

No it doesn't becuase in that era alot of mainstream culture was shaped and moulded by religion and the religous elite. If they were both the same religion they would have mixed alot more than they did.

What you were implying is that Turks in Western Turkey are nothing but Greeks embarrased of what they are and wanna-be Turks, that somehow you and everyone knows it all while their so stupid that they don't know their fake Turks. This is just patronising, it's as patronising and ridiculous as claiming Pakistani's are Indians in denial thinking that their Arab, Persian, Afgan, Turk or saying Greek's are nothing but a bunch of Turks and other groups who got put in a country called Greece and told they were Greeks.

Race, Genetics etc has nothing to do with ethnicity and nationhood.

If a guy is Black can I tell him nope your not a Turk cos your Black, if a guy is White with blonde hair, blue eyes can I tell him nah your not a Turk cos of your looks. I have two words for anyone who thinks they can, R A C I S T B U L L S * T
    

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim As you say, Ethinicity wasn't important in 1500, its probable that the western muslim anatolians decided to call themselves turks, even though they were culturally and genetically not turkic, sometime between the 16th and 18th centuary. This makes much more sense to me, as modern anatolian turks are culturally almost identical to greeks (please don't kill me), but are quite separate from the Turkomans.

The people self in Anatolia or somewhere else in Ottoman vilayets referred themselfs as "Muslims", still they do that way but not like in the past. The rulers i mean began to call themselfs as Turks more likely after 18th century.

There is something you must get it, there is no Greek culture in anatolia, there is a big mix of cultures in Anatolia(= Turkish culture) wich are similar to the neighbour country's not only with Greece. I bet if Iranians stayed sunni till now, then im 100% sure you couldnt see the difference between turkish and iranian people.

- I'm not familar with Dede korkut.

He's the ferdowsi of the Turks.

PS. Also Ottomans didn't fight like turks. At a time when a turk wouldn't be caught dead (literally) fighting without his horse, the Ottomans used infantry armies.

There is no statement as fighting as a Turk, what did you expect from Ottomans to do? Hiring mounted archers from the steppe? The best solution to get ride of the Mamelukes whas maybe in that time using cannon and infantry armies.

Also whasnt mameluke dynasty called as "Devlet-ul T�rk"?

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Also whasnt mameluke dynasty called as "Devlet-ul T�rk"? Not sure what Devlet means. If you mean was it considered a turkish state, then it depends on what angle you choose to look at it from. The military* and governence was completely Mamluke, who were often turks, and were called turks even if they weren't. But the rest was Syrian and Egyptian. * Actually bedouin and turkomans often were called up to fight as well.

Devlet means in arabic state, so if their state whas called "state of Turks" then the rulers at least are referred as Turks, isnt it?

Oh good. In that case I'm a Turk. I've been thinking of becoming one since turks keep mistaking me for a turk. Instead of seeing their dissapointed faces when I try to explain to them that actually I'm not a turk, I've been thinking that I could just say I am and end alot questions. But if genetics has nothing to do with ethnicity, then indeed, I am a turk! Hell, I've already been on a turkish TV show about turkish ex-pats living in Australia.

Do you have any pics so we can "confirm" youre Turkishness?


Edited by DayI - 03-Jan-2007 at 14:05

Also whasnt mameluke dynasty called as "Devlet-ul T�rk"? that is interesting, do they call themself as devlet-ul t�rk, or others(arabs) called them as this name.

"Kya Hal ha"= Keyfi halin nasıl?(not used now, older version) nasılsın?

A book you should read, is Malcomn X Haji Malik Shabazz �Message To The Grass Roots�, House Negro vs Field Negro.

Half the world is Turkic? says who? says which thinker, scholor or proffessor, who ever claimed Eskimo's to be Turks.

Being a Turk is accepting being a Turk, speaking Turkish, identifying as a Turk, having Turkic culture and feeling a part of it. It has nothing to do with Genetics or any other stupid racist fascist ideal, it doesn't matter where on Earth you are, if your a Turk your a Turk it's not determined by borders.

It has always been like this, racism has never been a part of becomming one and those that tried to make it so always fail and are ridiculed.

Originally posted by The Hidden Face Since half of the world must be Turkic according to the Turkist sources, Turks would mistake Eskimos for Turks, too.

Ibn Battuta, in his travel book, calls the Memluk State as "Dawla Turkiyye" and calls Anatolia as "Berru't Turkiyye al Ma'ruf bi Biladi'r- Rum" meaning "Turkish land known as Roman".