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Topic ClosedDoes Greece have ottoman traces???

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Poll Question: Does Greece have ottoman roots???
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konstantinius View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Does Greece have ottoman traces???
    Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 18:47

Ellin
.....Byzantine people produced various cheeses
 
Byzantine cuisine was marked by a merger of Greek and Roman gastronomy.
 
Also Byzantine cuisine came after Cheese started first being developed and used. The Byzantines and other people's had cheese aswell at that era of time.
 
Using your same source
 
Origins

The exact origins of cheesemaking are debated or unknown, and estimates range from around 8000 BCE (when sheep were domesticated) to around 3000 BCE. Credit for the discovery most likely goes to nomadic Turkic tribes in Central Asia, around the same time that they developed yogurt, or to people in the Middle East

 
 
We already established that for example yoghurt was introduced into Europe via Turkic tribes who migrated North of Caspian Sea Westwards and also had trade connections with European people's, its how Cheese passed along aswell.




Again you seem tobe missing the point. Ellin is not arguing that the Byzantines INVENTED cheese. He is making a counter point to one of YOUR previous points about the Greeks having discovered hard cheeses such as kefalotyri through contacts with the Turks. He is saying that, no, both the Byzantines AND ancient Greeks knew how to make their own cheeses.
But what's the point of this debate? Even if  cheese predated the creation of the universe, you, somehow, would still find a "Turkish  connection". 

 
 
 
Elinn
Now hang on a sec. Weren't you the one who was saying that the Baklava had been refined in the kitchens of the Ottoman Empire?? 
 
Yeah, that's the refinned version, it existed prior to this in Turkic regions and there are still examples of "early Baklava".


Another typical example. After you accidentally admitted that baklava preceded the Ottomans, you still have to place its invention in Turkic regions and call it "early Baklava". Is there a "middle" and "high" Baklava era as well, I wonder?



 
 
Hellin
That reminds me of a travel show I was watching on tv about Turkey.  And the Turkish guide didn't mention Greek once. Everything was Roman.  Even Pergamom and Ephesus.
 
Get over it.
 
Plus, Ephesus was originally the capitol of "Arzawa". It became a great Ionian Greek city and also had a great Roman contribution.


Get over what? Distortion of history in the name of nationalism? Sorry, can't do. Kinda hard to swallow and you choose to make it so.

 

Ellin
But you know what.  "Byzantine" gives the Greeks glory and honour too whether you like it or not.
 
That's lovley, oh the Romantism for those Romans LOL[QUOTE]

AGAIN NOT HIS FREAKIN" POINT! He's saying that, in their aversion to using even the word "Greek", the particular turkish program he watched named evrything either "Roman" or "byzantine", as if "Byzantine" does not denote close Greek connection anyway. Another example is you when you use "Ionian" instead of "Greek" as if the two are something different.
 
The rest of your post belong's in Historical Amusement.



And yours in Historical Denial
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 20:37
Konstantinius
But what's the point of this debate? Even if  cheese predated the creation of the universe, you, somehow, would still find a "Turkish  connection". 
I don't understand why you've gone into absurdities, the universe and the development of Cheese are unrelated issues. Many cultures have various cheese products, the development of cheese is related to the lifestyle, geographical setting and developments in that region. After it was first developed it spread to many regions.
 
Greek's have their cheeses so do other's, Cheese cusine is to general there are so many varieties and styles.
 
However, dishes like "Eriste", "Manti", "Dolma", Borek's, Corek's etc etc are not so.
 
 
Konstantinius
Another typical example. After you accidentally admitted that baklava preceded the Ottomans
 
This is ridiculous, why don't you actually read what's written before comming out with this.
 
Baklava & filo
The history and origin of baklava, a popular Middle Eastern pastry that is made of many sheets of filo pastry laid flat in a pan and layered with sweet fillings, is commonly attributed to medieval Turkey. 


"Filo is the Greek name for a dough of many paper-thin layers separated by films of butter...Although known to Europeans and North Americans by a Greek name, the dough is clearly of Turkish origin. The medieval nomad Turks had an obsessive interest in making layered bread, possibly in emulation of the thick oven breads of city people. As early as the 11th century, a dictionary of Turkish dialects (Diwan Lughat al-Turk) recorded pleated/folded bread as one meaning of the word yuvgha, which is related to the word (yufka) which means a single sheet of file in modern Turkish. This love of layering continues among the Turks of Central Asia...The idea of making the sheets paper thins is a later development.The Azerbaijanis make the usual sort of baklava with 50 or so layers of filo, but they also make a...pastry called Baki pakhlavasi (Baku-style baklava) using ordinary noodle paste instead of filo...This may represent the earliest form of baklava, resulting form the Turkish nomads adapting their concept of layered bread--developed in the absence of ovens...If this is so, baklava actually pre-dated filo, and the paper-thin pastry we know today was probably an innovation of the Ottoman sultan's kitchens at Topkapi palace in Istanbul. There is an established connection between the Topkapi kitchens and baklava; on the 15th of Ramadan every year, the Janissary troops stationed in Istanbul used to march to the palace, where every regiment was presented with two trays of baklava. They would...march back to their barracks in what was known as the Baklava Procession."
---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 299)
 
 
Now, I didn't write this so I don't understand your attack directed towards me personally.
 
It does not write anywhere that Baklava doesn't predate the Ottomans, it clearly states that Turkic people's had this dish in what is today's Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang province China.
 
What it does say is that, Ottomans "refined", changed and created the dish into what we know as Baklava today.
 
I wish you would read a little more.
 
Konstantinius
Get over what? Distortion of history in the name of nationalism?
 
What distortion of history? does it come as a shock that everything built in Anatolia prior to Turks isn't Greek?
 
What is shocking is the way some like to come here and dismiss, Lydians, Lykians, Phrgians, Galatians, Hitites, Assyrians, Trojans, Uratians, Cimmerians etc etc history, cities, states and try to pretend that it's all Greek.
 
 
Konstantinius
AGAIN NOT HIS FREAKIN" POINT! He's saying that, in their aversion to using even the word "Greek", the particular turkish program he watched named evrything either "Roman" or "byzantine", as if "Byzantine" does not denote close Greek connection anyway. Another example is you when you use "Ionian" instead of "Greek" as if the two are something different.
I don't understand your problem with this, if it's Roman its Roman if its Byzantine its Byzantine. This doesn't denote "Greek", if you can't swallow this point that's your problem.
 
If something was Seljuk they say Seljuk, Karakoyunlu is Karakoyunlu, Artukid is Artukid, the Beyler are Beyler, Mamluk is Mamluk, Ottoman is Ottoman.
 
These are terms to different styles even if they may be the same people.
 
If this bother's you it's just a matter of some paranoia which isn't healthy at all.
 
Outside of Greece these are still called, Roman, Byzantine etc.
 
If something is Greek it will say it's Greek.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 20:45
So, Byzantine doesn't denote Greek, in your oppinion? How about Ionian? Does that denote Greek, yes or no?
Do you accept that baklava (or its pre-Ottoman, thicker-dought version) is not exclusively Turkish but it was also made in Syria prior to the Seljuks?
Do you accept that there is a Persian version of the out as well as the Turkish one?




Edited by konstantinius - 16-Nov-2006 at 21:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 21:02
Ofcourse Ionian is Greek, Turks call Greek's Yunan deriving from Ionian.
 
Byzantine isn't as clear, as you know in that era it was the Eastern Roman Empire, the founders were Roman and the people were known as "Roum/Roman/Rum", not just Greeks were Rum. It later developed to have a more Hellenic culture and influence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 15:23
Greeks are not Ionians ; Ionians are not Greeks .
In Turkish;
Greek : Grek
Ionian : Yunan
 
Modern day Greece is mostly related with Ionians and that's why Turkish pupils call them Yunan
 
If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :|
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 16:42
Neo-Yunans sometimes use the following expression:
You don't know your blindness!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 10:27
Originally posted by Mordoth

Greeks are not Ionians; Ionians are not Greeks.
In Turkish;
Greek : Grek
Ionian : Yunan
 
Modern day Greece is mostly related with Ionians and that's why Turkish pupils call them Yunan. 
 
Ionians were Greeks. 


Edited by Hellios - 06-Dec-2006 at 10:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 15:04
It's OK. I get one to admitt something (Bulldog), just to have it countered by another (Mortaza). It's like the multiple fronts of the Byzantine Empire. I advise policy of containment, relying on system of outlying fortifications. Don't forget the cheese!LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 16:45
konstantinius,
 
A short production about Ionia by www.kultur.gov.tr and www.aboutturkey.com
 
 
Unfortunately, the quick video covers only a few of the 12 or so Ionian cities. 
 
Hope you enjoy. 


Edited by Hellios - 10-Dec-2006 at 16:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 04:41
I don't understand why the official website of the Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism has a lengthy biography and other of Ataturk...?
Btw its weird to see Kemal side by side with the orthodox icons...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 04:51
Originally posted by Patrinos

I don't understand why the official website of the Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism has a lengthy biography and other of Ataturk...? 
 
Maybe because...
 
"He abolished the powers of the Ottoman Dynasty (which had ruled since 1218) and ordered the last members of the dynasty to leave the country in 1922.
 
Proclamation of the new Turkish state as a republic in 1923.
 
In 1924 he abolished the post of Caliphate held by the Sultan since 1517.
 
He separated government and religious affairs very clearly.
 
He shut down the Islamic courts and replaced Islamic law with a secular civil code modeled after Switzerland and a penal code modeled after Italy.
 
In 1928 he replaced the Arabic script with the Turkish alphabet.
 
He initiated the creation of the Turkish State Railway, setting up an extensive rail network in a very short time span.
 
He emphasized the study of earlier (pre-Islamic) Anatolian civilizations, laying upon the fact that long before the Seljuk and Ottoman civilizations, the Turks had had a rich culture.
 
Despite some war crime accusations by Armenians and Pontic Greeks, he participated in forging close ties with Greece, culminating in a visit to Ankara by Greek premier Eleftherios Venizelos in 1932.
 
Venizelos even forwarded Ataturk's name for the 1934 Nobel Peace Prize, highlighting the mutual respect between the 2 leaders.
 
He also gave women full legal rights in 1934, years before European countries did."
 
Smile


Edited by Hellios - 11-Dec-2006 at 05:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 05:18
Every corner in Turkey has a portrait of Ataturk...it reminds me ancient anatolian monarchies...
Maybe its a proto-turkic tradition...

Edited by Patrinos - 11-Dec-2006 at 05:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 06:04
Patrinos, I also used to consider the excessive Kemalist propaganda in Turkey overbearing, but I'm not sure anymore, because (maybe) it's a non-violent way of preserving certain ideological principles that are constantly under siege in Turkey.  Principles like secularism, republicanism, populism, etc.  Anyhow, I only started learning about Turkish politics & history recently, from members like Bulldog, Hidden Face, Batu, etc.
 
On another note; did you like the video? Smile
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 06:42
This personality cult isn't sign of a healthy democracy...and...I think they declare their polity as democracy(Cumhuriyeti)...What's the difference from Stalin's policy who almost considered a god...Specifically the role of the kemalist military decelerate the democratization of Turkey...Why the Turkish people elected a islamist(not extreme I think)Erdogan if they fully agree with Kemal's principles which are more cosmic??

On another note; did you like the video?
Hellios rules
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 01:42
After reading this lengthy thread, I won't state my opinions, as I would like to research the matters at hand in a little more depth, however, I did stumble across a certain piece found here:

http://www.culinaryhistorians.org/kraig-story.html

Bruce Z. Kraig is President of the Culinary Historians of Chicago and Professor Emeritus of History and Humanities at Roosevelt University. A nationally- and internationally-known culinary historian...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 02:52
Originally posted by The Hidden Face

 
4) Kahve (Turkish Coffee) is a middle eastern type Coffee. Has no connection with CA.


Turkish, Greek, Palestinian, Syrian etc coffee. All of them were made first by native americans. They cooked their cofee.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 05:44
Originally posted by Ellin



most definitely


 


hah!now greeks started to claim on our national symbols????
how do you think that blue turks(gokturks,gok means sky or blue)can deriver their theologic symbols from byzantines?they were worshipping to sky because of it they used moon and star as their symbol!

most definetly


your claims started to be meaningless and boring.at first it could be logic but you started to say bullsh*ts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 21:50
Originally posted by the_oz

hah!now greeks started to claim on our national symbols????
your claims started to be meaningless and boring.at first it could be logic but you started to say bullsh*ts.
 
the_oz, there are more polite ways to make those points. 


Edited by Hellios - 01-Jan-2007 at 12:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 23:42
According to Sultan Selim the Grim, Ottomans aren't turks.

Why not? Ask him, but when he captured Egypt he expressed the desire to "kill all the turks".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 12:51
Having a desire to "kill the Turks", doesn't make him not a Turk. Turks had many regional battles, especially during the Beylik era, the Ottoman's battled the Karamanid's, KaraKoyunlu, AkKoyunlu etc therefore, they are Turks fighting Turks, when going into battle they were going to kill Turks so it's logical that he would say this.
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